Rand and Lews Therin...

[OptimusPrime]

... are the same CHARACTER. Im talking about Lews Therin as he was in the Age of Legends, nothing to do with the voice. Does anyone else see it that way?

[Terez]

Yes, 100%. Like Rand said...'they were not two men, and never had been'. The idea that they were separate was a delusion on Rand's part, partly caused by the oddness of remembering a past life out of nowhere, but mostly due to the intense negative emotions that Rand experienced when he even considered that he and Lews Therin might be one and the same. An understandable reaction, of course.

[OptimusPrime]

Exactly. What I take from it is that the time between Lews Therins death and Rands birth is exactly the same as, say, the time between the Forsaken were bound and then broke free. Barring Ishamael of course. The Dark Ones reincarnation of his Chosen is his own, unnatural version of the Wheels natural rebirth system spinning out the Heroes. The Heroes are reborn to create legends, the Forsaken are reincarnated to sew chaos.

 

I just thought it would be worth mentioning even after all this time, what with the likes of Slayer being around, Slayer being two separate people, separate characters, that cannot exist at the same time. It could still be confusing.

[cap10kirk]

Rand caught a lot of breaks because of his LTT past life. He was able to unconsciously tap into his past life experiences to help him out. Maybe that's a benefit of being a champion of the Light. I wonder if LTT did the same? Stands to reason that he did.

[OptimusPrime]

Rand caught a lot of breaks because of his LTT past life. He was able to unconsciously tap into his past life experiences to help him out. Maybe that's a benefit of being a champion of the Light.

 

This is something Ive said for a while, Rand existing within the Pattern as a Hero, as the Champion, he is supposed to get the memories as a perk. The Heroes I think get them when, but possibly only when between lives and summoned by the Horn, not when they are actually Heroing. But Rand I think is supposed to get the memories because he is Senior Hero of the Horn, and the reason Birgitte is losing them is because her existence in the Pattern is not natural, not according to the rules, and past life memories are only available to Heroes between lives, not during. She gains new life via the bond to Elayne, but she loses the memories because that goes against the rules, only the Senior Hero gets that in their natural life.

[Mr Ares]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

[jdbond]

Rand caught a lot of breaks because of his LTT past life. He was able to unconsciously tap into his past life experiences to help him out. Maybe that's a benefit of being a champion of the Light.

 

This is something Ive said for a while, Rand existing within the Pattern as a Hero, as the Champion, he is supposed to get the memories as a perk. The Heroes I think get them when, but possibly only when between lives and summoned by the Horn, not when they are actually Heroing. But Rand I think is supposed to get the memories because he is Senior Hero of the Horn, and the reason Birgitte is losing them is because her existence in the Pattern is not natural, not according to the rules, and past life memories are only available to Heroes between lives, not during. She gains new life via the bond to Elayne, but she loses the memories because that goes against the rules, only the Senior Hero gets that in their natural life.

 

 

Every one born is not suppose to remember their past life. LTT never did. No one understands why Rand can but it has something to do with tainted Saidin. LTT was never burdened with his past life's experiences.

[NetSlider]

Rand caught a lot of breaks because of his LTT past life. He was able to unconsciously tap into his past life experiences to help him out. Maybe that's a benefit of being a champion of the Light.

 

This is something Ive said for a while, Rand existing within the Pattern as a Hero, as the Champion, he is supposed to get the memories as a perk. The Heroes I think get them when, but possibly only when between lives and summoned by the Horn, not when they are actually Heroing. But Rand I think is supposed to get the memories because he is Senior Hero of the Horn, and the reason Birgitte is losing them is because her existence in the Pattern is not natural, not according to the rules, and past life memories are only available to Heroes between lives, not during. She gains new life via the bond to Elayne, but she loses the memories because that goes against the rules, only the Senior Hero gets that in their natural life.

 

 

Every one born is not suppose to remember their past life. LTT never did. No one understands why Rand can but it has something to do with tainted Saidin. LTT was never burdened with his past life's experiences.

 

What interests me is whether or not LTT was creator's champion? He was thrust into the role of a leader after DO was set free b/c he already was in power. But was he truly creator's chosen one? We know he shun from the title Dragon. I made a comparison between him and Neo from the matrix - before he died and lived again he was not THE ONE, but instead a very special person destined to be (or his soul destined to be) very unique one day (but not in the current life time). I hope i make sense.

[Luckers]

Rand was exposed to the Taint. The Taint causes the manifestation of normal forms of insanity--we see regressions to a childlike state, delusions, breaks with reality... Within the world of the Wheel the manifestation of the personality of a past life is a normal form of insanity.

 

People struggle with the concept that Lews Therin was both real and a form of insanity. The general conception is that something insane is delusional--which is to say, not real. This is not the case--insanity is something that destabalizes the mental state of the individual, and I think we can all agree Lews Therin destabalized Rand.

 

As Rand states 'they were not two men, and never had been'--they were two personalities fighting for the control of the same soul. That's bound to destabalize anyone.

[Agitel]

Same soul, different character. Something is causing Rand to have memories and connections to Lews Therin, probably a trick of the pattern and ta'verenness. But to say that they are the same person?

 

It certainly did not start that way. As the connection has grown I guess you could say it's the same. But typically when a person is reborn it's the same soul, but they're not the same person.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I believe that Rand and LTT are the same man only insofar as they are both the Dragon Reborn, host to the same force that is the Dragon, the embodiment of Light and Creation. I'd further speculate that 'the Light' is the Dragon's physical manifestation, and perfectly represents both the 'Blade of Light' in the Three Become One prophecy as well as a perfect metaphor for the title 'A Memory of Light'.

[haloun]

i think they are the same character, or rather have the same character, LTT has been adding womens names to the list of women that have been killed by him/rand, that rand doesnt know about, and he has always shied away from the death of women as well, he hated the idea of being the champion of the light at first, just as rand did, we knoe little of LTT's childhood, but i wouldnt find it hard to believe that he started out in a farm town and was maybe even a wilder at first who then got the training he needed, for all intents and purposes, they HAVE the same character, therefore they ARE the same character.

 

 

edit by haloun: support for my thesis of LTT being a wilder is his need for hands, dont you think the AOL aes sedai would not need to use gestures? they should have worked that out, and i believe they did, since we dont really see them using the gestures very much when looking at the FS

[Luckers]

edit by haloun: support for my thesis of LTT being a wilder is his need for hands, dont you think the AOL aes sedai would not need to use gestures? they should have worked that out, and i believe they did, since we dont really see them using the gestures very much when looking at the FS

 

There were no wilders in the Age of Legends. Every child was tested at age 10. Arrows of Fire requires the hands--possibly because it was a weave create in the deperation of war, where even AOL Aes Sedai won't be perfect, and was thus taughted that way to others, setting the gesture. Possibly because it created an reliable and easy aiming machenism in the directionality of ones fingers--I mean it is the equivelent of a bullet. Small and specific in its destruction--it needed something of a barrel to make it work. Pointing ones fingers seems reasonable.

[Ozzie_aiel]

Isn't LTT a symptom of Rands insanity? Simerhage has said as much

[Luckers]

Isn't LTT a symptom of Rands insanity? Simerhage has said as much

 

LTT's manifestation is a form of insanity, yes.

[OptimusPrime]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

 

What you are getting at Ares isnt really accurate; yes, tehir personalities are affected by their own lifetimes but what I was saying is that Rand and Lews Therin are one person/character in exactly the same way that Ishamael and Moridin are. A soul is the non-physical version of the character, but it is still the same character regardless of the experience. It is the personality that changes with experiences, you dont suddenly become a different individual entirely if something changes your personality, however drastically. Unless, of course, you want to assume Rand isnt Lews Therin reborn. They are the same person, but with different lives and thus different personalities, but other than that Rand/Lews Therin, Lanfear/Cyndane, yada yada, the only thing that makes Rand different is that he was supposed to do be like this, the Forsaken got it from an unnatural source hence why they are different

[Sharaman]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

 

What you are getting at Ares isnt really accurate; yes, tehir personalities are affected by their own lifetimes but what I was saying is that Rand and Lews Therin are one person/character in exactly the same way that Ishamael and Moridin are. A soul is the non-physical version of the character, but it is still the same character regardless of the experience. It is the personality that changes with experiences, you dont suddenly become a different individual entirely if something changes your personality, however drastically. Unless, of course, you want to assume Rand isnt Lews Therin reborn. They are the same person, but with different lives and thus different personalities, but other than that Rand/Lews Therin, Lanfear/Cyndane, yada yada, the only thing that makes Rand different is that he was supposed to do be like this, the Forsaken got it from an unnatural source hence why they are different

 

Definitely not in the same way that Ishamael- Moridin are. Moridin is just a new alias and new body for Ishamael - there's no break in personality. Rand and LTT are two entirely different people with totally different life experiences.

[OptimusPrime]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

 

What you are getting at Ares isnt really accurate; yes, tehir personalities are affected by their own lifetimes but what I was saying is that Rand and Lews Therin are one person/character in exactly the same way that Ishamael and Moridin are. A soul is the non-physical version of the character, but it is still the same character regardless of the experience. It is the personality that changes with experiences, you dont suddenly become a different individual entirely if something changes your personality, however drastically. Unless, of course, you want to assume Rand isnt Lews Therin reborn. They are the same person, but with different lives and thus different personalities, but other than that Rand/Lews Therin, Lanfear/Cyndane, yada yada, the only thing that makes Rand different is that he was supposed to do be like this, the Forsaken got it from an unnatural source hence why they are different

 

Definitely not in the same way that Ishamael- Moridin are. Moridin is just a new alias and new body for Ishamael - there's no break in personality. Rand and LTT are two entirely different people with totally different life experiences.

 

No, Rand and Lews Therin are a single person but with different life experiences. If Rand and Lewis werent the same person then it couldnt be said that Rand was Lewis reborn. Lews Therin was the Dragon. Rand is also the Dragon, but reborn. The word Reborn is there with the single purpose of indicating which version of the same man it is

[Naffy]

Therin and Al'Thor.............Al'Thor and Therin...............Therin and Al'Thor............Al'Thor is Therin!

[Luckers]

Lews Therin and Rand are the same soul, but not the same personality. RJ spoke of this in why immortality would be so important to the Forsaken--each incarnation of the soul has a specific distinct facet personality. In the normal cycle of birth and rebirth a new incarnation does not have the personality of the last, in the case of transmigration the old personality survives intact. That is the true benefit to the Dark One's gift of Immortality.

 

It's also why the manifestation of a past life personality is a form of insanity. It's an abnormal mental state, with two personalities active at one time. It's why integration is needed--if more then one personality exists they must exist in cohesion, akin to the way personalities exist in TAR, as a form of meta-personality.

 

Rand's denial of that kept the two facets of his souls personality apart, thus causing the problem.

[jdbond]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

 

What you are getting at Ares isnt really accurate; yes, tehir personalities are affected by their own lifetimes but what I was saying is that Rand and Lews Therin are one person/character in exactly the same way that Ishamael and Moridin are. A soul is the non-physical version of the character, but it is still the same character regardless of the experience. It is the personality that changes with experiences, you dont suddenly become a different individual entirely if something changes your personality, however drastically. Unless, of course, you want to assume Rand isnt Lews Therin reborn. They are the same person, but with different lives and thus different personalities, but other than that Rand/Lews Therin, Lanfear/Cyndane, yada yada, the only thing that makes Rand different is that he was supposed to do be like this, the Forsaken got it from an unnatural source hence why they are different

 

Definitely not in the same way that Ishamael- Moridin are. Moridin is just a new alias and new body for Ishamael - there's no break in personality. Rand and LTT are two entirely different people with totally different life experiences.

 

No, Rand and Lews Therin are a single person but with different life experiences. If Rand and Lewis werent the same person then it couldnt be said that Rand was Lewis reborn. Lews Therin was the Dragon. Rand is also the Dragon, but reborn. The word Reborn is there with the single purpose of indicating which version of the same man it is

 

Ahem..it's the rebirth of soul, not the person. Since they don't have name for soul, Rand is called Dragon Reborn. Rand is not LTT. Moridin is Ishamel with new body but Rand is meat suit for a soul that once had another meat suit named LTT.

[Erelvar]

here's a questions/comment

 

since rand and LTT are the same, wouldn't it stand to reason that maybe when LTT was going crazy during his age, he was hearing Rand's voice in his head?

[OptimusPrime]

I don't agree that Rand and LTT were the same character. Given that they were different men with different memories and personalities, I fail to see how they could reasonably be considered the same. Unless, of course, you wish to argue that you and I are the same person? They are separate and distinct characters who share the same soul.

 

What you are getting at Ares isnt really accurate; yes, tehir personalities are affected by their own lifetimes but what I was saying is that Rand and Lews Therin are one person/character in exactly the same way that Ishamael and Moridin are. A soul is the non-physical version of the character, but it is still the same character regardless of the experience. It is the personality that changes with experiences, you dont suddenly become a different individual entirely if something changes your personality, however drastically. Unless, of course, you want to assume Rand isnt Lews Therin reborn. They are the same person, but with different lives and thus different personalities, but other than that Rand/Lews Therin, Lanfear/Cyndane, yada yada, the only thing that makes Rand different is that he was supposed to do be like this, the Forsaken got it from an unnatural source hence why they are different

 

Definitely not in the same way that Ishamael- Moridin are. Moridin is just a new alias and new body for Ishamael - there's no break in personality. Rand and LTT are two entirely different people with totally different life experiences.

 

No, Rand and Lews Therin are a single person but with different life experiences. If Rand and Lewis werent the same person then it couldnt be said that Rand was Lewis reborn. Lews Therin was the Dragon. Rand is also the Dragon, but reborn. The word Reborn is there with the single purpose of indicating which version of the same man it is

 

Ahem..it's the rebirth of soul, not the person. Since they don't have name for soul, Rand is called Dragon Reborn.

 

Ahem. Then Moridin is not Ishamael because it is a reincarnation of the soul, not the person.

 

Rand is not LTT. Moridin is Ishamel with new body but Rand is meat suit for a soul that once had another meat suit named LTT.

 

What you have just said is two versions of the same thing using different words. Since Ishsmaels soul doesnt have a name for the soul itself, Ishsmael is simply what the meatbag for that soul is called, and Moridin is what the new meatbag is called for the same soul. That is EXACTLY how it is. But we know Moridin is Ishamael from his PoVs and whatnot, just like we know Cyndane is Lanfear from her PoVs because she thinks of things only Lanfear ever thinks, which we know from her previous PoVs when she was in the old meatbag.

 

We have just had twelve books of Rand making those exact same references. I mean, of all the people in the books, whose PoV would you say Rands resembles the most?

 

Lanfear: (to Rand) Lews Therin I will kill you! *is held by the Finns* *dies*

Cyndane: (About Rand) I still hate Lews Therin! *turns* Oh my Creator look at that woman, shes stronger than I was before the Finns held me!

Lews Therin: *Fights Forsaken* *kills Ilyena, creates Dragonmount* *dies*

Rand: *remembers Forsaken* *remembers Ilyena* *remembers creating Dragonmount* *leaves Ilyenas name on the list of women HE killed because it feels right*

Us: Cyndane is Lanfear. Rand is completely nuts.

 

The only thing about the Lews Therin side of Rand is the voice. The memories of past lives are natural to Rand, they just didnt start coming through until after he became Ta'veren, after his Champion qualities became active.

 

here's a questions/comment

 

since rand and LTT are the same, wouldn't it stand to reason that maybe when LTT was going crazy during his age, he was hearing Rand's voice in his head?

 

That would depend on what you think the cause of the memories and/or voice are. But I still think the answer is no, whatever the cause is I think if Lews Therin had the same thing he would have had the memories of the one before him, Rand hadnt been there before.

 

In a nutshell I think Lews Therin the voice, and its ability to take over, is a mixture of Rand not knowing he is supposed to have the memories, and an addiction to channeling. A voice is born to make the memories something Rand can understand. Then, by the time Rand kills Rahvin he has so distanced himself from his humanity that it is beginning to feel like its someone else doing it. Like, for example, when he realizes Aviendha has been brought back he lets go of saidin because "he wanted to feel this." His own words. As in, normally he didnt want to feel anything, because a true weapon doesnt feel. But then, if you have a whole set of very powerful instincts that you dont understand, when you think that part of you is NOT you even though it is, I imagine that the way that part of you is like your subconsciousness, and when that progresses to form the voice, it convinces Rand it is an entirely seperate being from himself. So we have Rand trying to block out these memories, thus slowing down his learning from them, he has been balling up that understanding in a part of his own mind that he has convinced himself is seperate. But that part of him with those powerful instincts, which now has no conscious moderation, it is still there and it still surfaces like any normal set of instincts would. For example, in KoD when "Lews Therin siezes saidin" and held literally as much as Rand could unaided, take into account that Lews Therin has rambled on and on about wanting to die. Why on earth didnt Lews Therin kill them both right there and then? Because it was not Lews Therin, it was Rands subconsciousness, showing the absolute alpha-male attitude that Rand has just built up, the sort of attitude we have very little reason to think Lews Therin ever had. After all, he was a great leader, then his madness made him deluded. Lews Therin was never a tyrant.

[Naffy]

The difference between Ishidin and Rand Therin is that Ishamel and Moridin share the same conciousness while Rand and LTT share the same soul.

[OptimusPrime]

The difference between Ishidin and Rand Therin is that Ishamel and Moridin share the same conciousness while Rand and LTT share the same soul.

 

And yet their consciousnesses merge in TGS, and this fixes Rand, rather than sending him completely over the brink