Rand 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'

[navahgar]

This phrase is one that Moiraine first mentions (was it somewhere in books 4-6 that she first mentioned it??) as existing in the Karatheon Cycle, and then is later bandied about by Rand and maybe others throughout the books. Most people seem to think that this is one of those metaphorical phrases that exist in prophecies, and that it just generically means that the Seanchan, or Fortuona, will come to serve him. Is it possible that in fact this is Robert Jordan playing an ironic trick on us, and this phrase is a literal statement. We know that Fortuona is capable of channelling, and that an oath rod is binding on anyone who can channel. Maybe Rand uses an oath rod to make her swear an oath of servility, or uses it in some way it had been used in the Age of Legends to make her serve him. This would be a dramatic scene, and also would have massive consequences for the story since I bet Mat would be annoyed at that. The more I think about this, the more I think it's possibly the Big Unnoticed Thing. It fits all of the criteria: first mentioned in books 4-6 (I think); was immediately somewhat relevant and should have been thought about (remember Mat had been given his marrying prophecy); has been mentioned since a number of times; has become more clear since we discovered more about the nine moons, and about the binding rods. Thoughts?

[Luckers]

I'm fairly certain one must be an active channeler in order to be bound--the fact that severed channelers can't be speaks towards this--although that being said, sul'dam are a half-step toward being active, so who knows.

 

Frankly I would prefer as situation where events, and not the One Power, force Fortuona's hand. I want the Empire to get smacked around heavily, disrupting her belief in the inherent ascendency of the Crystal Throne, and then Rand demanding she step in line and her doing it because its right.

[navahgar]

I'm fairly certain one must be an active channeler in order to be bound--the fact that severed channelers can't be speaks towards this--although that being said, sul'dam are a half-step toward being active, so who knows.

 

Frankly I would prefer as situation where events, and not the One Power, force Fortuona's hand. I want the Empire to get smacked around heavily, disrupting her belief in the inherent ascendency of the Crystal Throne, and then Rand demanding she step in line and her doing it because its right.

I agree that it would be more satisfying for Fortuona to make the change herself, but given how entrenched she is in her views that would be a dramatic change of heart. Especially since she's shown herself not to change her mind about those kind of social things easily (e.g. marath damane, existence of Trollocs, taveren). With respect to your first point, severing a person's connection to the Source has been shown to also sever the binding that the binding rod places, but this to me does not imply that it would not work on a non-active channeler like Fortuona, especially given her sul'dam work.

[Luckers]

I agree that it would be more satisfying for Fortuona to make the change herself, but given how entrenched she is in her views that would be a dramatic change of heart. Especially since she's shown herself not to change her mind about those kind of social things easily (e.g. marath damane, existence of Trollocs, taveren).

 

That is what I meant about circumstances--and why I say I want to see the Empire getting smacked around. Consider, Elayne is on the verge of, or has already sent sul'dam who admit they can channel to demand to be leashed. Fortuona can make whatever nuanced rationalisations she wants, that is going to terrify the general Seanchan populace, and enrage the Westland populace (Seanchan-held) with its hypocrisy--and the perception of the fairness of the Seanchan has been one of their major tools in consolidating their conquests. Losing that will be a blow--especially if people put two and two together and realise Fortuona can channel.

 

From there, there are a number of other furious parties. The Aiel and the Atha'an Miere, for instance. Rand, given their continued war efforts. Most particularily there is the Aes Sedai--say what you will about them, when you slap some sense into them they can be very effective--and that is literally what the Seanchan did--slapped them just hard enough to be taken seriously, but not enough to cripple them. It was frankly stupid.

 

I'm not saying we'll see war, there is not enough time, but there are ways that the Aes Sedai could hurt the Seanchan--say staging a prison break for damane. Might we see the Wise Ones resisting the collar in quite spectacular ways, drawing attention to the brutality of it now that the Seanchan are paying attention?

 

My favourite idea, of course, is that we are going to see a massive Trolloc incursion on Seanchan held lands. Fortuona, of course, says that they havn't seen any more signs of Trollocs since the group Tylee destroyed, but consider that scene...

 

How had this happened? How had these things gotten so close to Ebou Dar! They were well inside the Seanchan defensive perimeter, only a day’s march from the capital.

 

Clearly the shadowspawn have some way in--a trick, or a Waygate inside the perimeter. And certainly there are open Waygates in the Shadow Coast which could permit an attack on Amador.

 

In any case the point is that the Seanchan need to get slapped around. Heavily. Someone in effect needs to do for them what they did for the Tower. Because, in the end, Fortuona is not stupid. Yes she holds tenaciously to some stupid ideas, but that is because circumstances allow her too. If pushed she will do what is best for the Empire--she just needs to pushed into realising she can't do that alone.

[Val Mickey]

@Luckers : You really have it against the Seanchan, don't you? And with regards to their raid, if the Tower wasn't divided, then would it have been so stupid? Plus, now they have Traveling. That itself is worth a LOT, given the superior quality of their war machine.

[Luckers]

Yeah, I think it would still have been stupid. The Seanchan speak often of how dangerous marath'damane are, but they have been thinking of them as animals for so long that they disreguarded what they could do as an organisation. To them each leashed or dead sister is one less rabid wolf. But these 'wolves' are capable taking note that they are being hunted, and responding in kind. To the Aes Sedai, it served as nothing more than a wake up call. For a people who scream the horrors of Aes Sedai, what the Seanchan did was akin to kicking a sleeping monster--but not kicking it hard enough to ensure it stayed down.

 

There are other ways they could have persued gaining the knowledge of Travelling. Agents sent to kidnap sister in the dark of night. Raids on smaller gatherings of sisters. Ways which would not have made the Tower immediately aware of how much a risk was posed them.

 

Even if the Aes Sedai do nothing--and think, using travelling they could have crippled the Empire long before the to'raken returned with their prisoners--the plan was still stupid. It's what comes from thinking of people as animals--you forget just how much more dangerous a predator humans can be.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

What I heartily dislike about the Seanchan the most is the fact that they believe that they are inherantly superior to the rest of the world. Consider what Tuon said to Rand, about Randland being "a child in need of a parent" or something of that sort. Consider how the Seanchan so readily believe that they are going to inherit the world because their prophecies said so, without pausing to wonder why the prophecies in Randland said NOTHING of the sort.

 

Get used to it people. The Seanchan have their moments, but right now they look set to fall into worse shape than the Aes Sedai, what with Civil War all over Seandar and the Seanchan lands.

[Seazo]

This phrase is one that Moiraine first mentions (was it somewhere in books 4-6 that she first mentioned it??) as existing in the Karatheon Cycle, and then is later bandied about by Rand and maybe others throughout the books. Most people seem to think that this is one of those metaphorical phrases that exist in prophecies, and that it just generically means that the Seanchan, or Fortuona, will come to serve him. Is it possible that in fact this is Robert Jordan playing an ironic trick on us, and this phrase is a literal statement. We know that Fortuona is capable of channelling, and that an oath rod is binding on anyone who can channel. Maybe Rand uses an oath rod to make her swear an oath of servility, or uses it in some way it had been used in the Age of Legends to make her serve him. This would be a dramatic scene, and also would have massive consequences for the story since I bet Mat would be annoyed at that. The more I think about this, the more I think it's possibly the Big Unnoticed Thing. It fits all of the criteria: first mentioned in books 4-6 (I think); was immediately somewhat relevant and should have been thought about (remember Mat had been given his marrying prophecy); has been mentioned since a number of times; has become more clear since we discovered more about the nine moons, and about the binding rods. Thoughts?

[Luckers]

Oh, also, it was mentioned in book 3--so not the BUT.

[Seazo]

In regards to binding the nine moons to serve the dragon being the BUT doesn't it also have to be something that BS had never seen being discussed on any of the forums he had visited? Maybe I'm mis-remembering that detail but I've always thought that was the case. And I'm pretty sure how Rand would bind Tuon or the empress before that became Tuon had been discussed a number of times.

[Sharaman]

In regards to binding the nine moons to serve the dragon being the BUT doesn't it also have to be something that BS had never seen being discussed on any of the forums he had visited? Maybe I'm mis-remembering that detail but I've always thought that was the case. And I'm pretty sure how Rand would bind Tuon or the empress before that became Tuon had been discussed a number of times.

This is rather subjective in that it's not something Brandon himself had seen discussed much as a lurker and we dunno how much lurking he did where and when.

A few things have been ruled out in subsequent lists.

[Silver]

I know this has been mentioned before but I think the binding already happened since there is no more Daughter of the Nine Moons. The prophecy is usually metaphorical and takes a twisted bit of thought to figure out, but it's never outright factually wrong. And it wold be wrong to think of Fortuna as the DotNM, she's the Empress.

 

edit: Huh, just reread the quote. It's binding the Nine Moons, not daughter.. Woops. Guess I'm wrong.

[jwbmdt6]

There is a red crystal chair that was in Rhuidean that I have always thought must be a Binding Chair, like what Sammael talked about in book 7 with Sevannah. The Binding Chair is the non-channeler equivalent to the Oath Rod according to Sammael. Since Aviendha is currently traipsing around Rhuidean, she may come across it and recognize exactly what it is.

 

I think Rand should make a gift of it to Fortuona to help convince her to join him. Then when she agrees to her portion of the treaty between them, while she is seated upon her new "crystal throne," Rand can channel into the chair and "bind the Nine Moons" to him truly and completely. (This is, of course, assuming that Fortuona may not be able to get her hands on the Crystal Throne in Seandar because it has been stolen or hidden by rival claimants to the Empire.)

 

Also . . .

 

(just a little wishful thinking here)

 

If the Oath Rod only works on channelers, and if the channeler is severed then the Oaths disappear . . .

 

Then we should also be able to say that the Binding Chair only works on non-channelers, but if a "non-channeler" could somehow begin to channel . . . then that binding would likewise disappear. Right?!

 

Therefore, if Fortuona is bound by a Binding Chair, she may at some point have to make the decision to start channeling in order to release herself from the binding. If Fortuona channels, she may have to finally rethink the whole sul'dam/damane relationship.

 

 

A Binding Chair in Rhuidean! It could kill two birds with one stone: the Nine Moons literally bound to the Dragon, and a possible catalyst to force the Empress into changing her mind about damane!

[Elgee]

I'm fairly certain one must be an active channeler in order to be bound--the fact that severed channelers can't be speaks towards this-

 

I disagree with you on this point, Luckers. If you're severed, you're severed - no amount of practice or training is going to UNsever you.

 

On the other hand, if you do have the ability to learn how to channel or the spark inborn, then it's there - it only needs activation, whether in the form of training or circumstances pushing you.

 

-although that being said, sul'dam are a half-step toward being active, so who knows.

 

Exactly.

Recall the 3 Suldam with Mat and the Aes Sedai in Luca's show - 1 of them started channeling all by herself, to force the AS into teaching her. This indicates that using the adam as a Suldam has "activated" their ability or potential, whatever you want to call it.

 

You cannot say that the Oath Rod would work depending on your degree of training - where would be the cut off point? If you've trained for x amount of hours, suddenly it would work? No - not logical.

 

Moving along ... IMO it would be divine justice if Fortuona was physically forced by a Ter'Angreal to do something, whether it be by the Oath Rod or an adam. She's so high and mighty about how much better than channellers she is, just because she decides not to use this filthy ability of hers - yet it's perfectly ok for her to FORCE some OTHER poor, helpless to resist woman into doing exactly that? Such hypocrisy!

[Sharaman]

There is a red crystal chair that was in Rhuidean that I have always thought must be a Binding Chair, like what Sammael talked about in book 7 with Sevannah. The Binding Chair is the non-channeler equivalent to the Oath Rod according to Sammael. Since Aviendha is currently traipsing around Rhuidean, she may come across it and recognize exactly what it is.

 

I think Rand should make a gift of it to Fortuona to help convince her to join him. Then when she agrees to her portion of the treaty between them, while she is seated upon her new "crystal throne," Rand can channel into the chair and "bind the Nine Moons" to him truly and completely. (This is, of course, assuming that Fortuona may not be able to get her hands on the Crystal Throne in Seandar because it has been stolen or hidden by rival claimants to the Empire.)

 

Also . . .

 

(just a little wishful thinking here)

 

If the Oath Rod only works on channelers, and if the channeler is severed then the Oaths disappear . . .

 

Then we should also be able to say that the Binding Chair only works on non-channelers, but if a "non-channeler" could somehow begin to channel . . . then that binding would likewise disappear. Right?!

 

Therefore, if Fortuona is bound by a Binding Chair, she may at some point have to make the decision to start channeling in order to release herself from the binding. If Fortuona channels, she may have to finally rethink the whole sul'dam/damane relationship.

 

 

A Binding Chair in Rhuidean! It could kill two birds with one stone: the Nine Moons literally bound to the Dragon, and a possible catalyst to force the Empress into changing her mind about damane!

 

The one (an oath on a binder disappears if channeler is severed, = non-channeler's oath disappears if non channeler learns to channels) doesn't necessarily follow from the other. For one, a channeler needs to be medically damaged to be severed, whereas a non-channeler gains an ability if he/she learns to channel. But it could happen - there are also many other conceivable reasons why Tuon may start channeling. For one, she could be a late sparker or she may be pushed to it by great need or fear.

[Foamy The Master]

No No No wrong wrong wrong lol

 

I think it's a typo and they were supposed to say bond her to him

 

Imagine that; Mat's wife bonded to his best friend. think that would suck for Mat hehe

[ragnhild]

What about the Seanshan prophecys? I am not quite sure, but I think it says something like: "The Dragon Reborn shall bow to the crystal trowne." I know we all hate the Seanshans, but thet doesn`t mean that they aren`t as true as those in Randland. I don`t think Rand will force Tuon (of Fortuna if you like) to serve him. I think they both have to overcome theyr pride and make ann alianse. Rand has to bow to the empress, and she will be bound to him trough an alianse. Maybe some king of outh rod ore chair, but I am almost sure that Rand has to sacrifice something.

[Sid]

What about the Seanshan prophecys? I am not quite sure, but I think it says something like: "The Dragon Reborn shall bow to the crystal trowne." I know we all hate the Seanshans, but thet doesn`t mean that they aren`t as true as those in Randland. I don`t think Rand will force Tuon (of Fortuna if you like) to serve him. I think they both have to overcome theyr pride and make ann alianse. Rand has to bow to the empress, and she will be bound to him trough an alianse. Maybe some king of outh rod ore chair, but I am almost sure that Rand has to sacrifice something.

clues in the text indicate that this part of their prophecies are almost certainly not in the original prophecies and added by someone with their own motives. Luckers had a neat write-up on one of these threads somewhere....

oooh, I found it Here

[Demiandre]

Could Rand bond Fortuona with the warder weave? That would be an unexpected twist. And we see that Asha'Man have quite a big ascendance over sisters.

[ragnhild]

The fact that the Seanshan prophecys ar not part of the Kareathon Cycle doesn`t make them false. Someone with motives may have added them, but they could just as well be fortellings by damane, so I don`t think they should be ignored.

[Sid]

The fact that the Seanshan prophecys ar not part of the Kareathon Cycle doesn`t make them false. Someone with motives may have added them, but they could just as well be fortellings by damane, so I don`t think they should be ignored.

The problem is that they were added to the Seanchan version of the Kareathon Cycle. It was written during and just after the Breaking. It stayed the same for over a thousand years, and then when someone brought them over with them to the Seanchan continent they were suddenly different. Other prophecies since that time have been made, foretellings, etc., and likely put into Seanchan's Essanik Cycle, but they aren't added into the Kareathon Cycle like these bits about 'serving' and 'kneeling before' the Chrystal Throne apparently were. It just reeks of tampering.

 

I guess there's no way to say they absolutely aren't actual prophecy, but that particular part seems too fishy. I'd be surprised if Rand did end up kneeling to the Chrystal Throne, because that hardly seems like a prelude to Binding the Nine Moons to serve him.

[Tom Sawyer]

What if he kneels down to get her to drop her defenses and trust him so that he can blast her mind out with a Compulsion?

[haloun]

i have thought on this for a while, how rand could bond her and yet have to kneel, even though I am certain that ishamael put the second part in their prophecies, Rand has learned how to control saidar, and must use the same, or similar tactics to controll the seanchan, we see this with the ebou dari queen, we bow they let do whatever we want and uphold our laws, etc.... we fight they break our necks at the end of noose. the randland way of conquering is to fight, if someone is dong something you dont want them to, you fight them and force it out of them. the seanchan way is different, if you want the government to work for you, you have to bend, like a willow, and then they will work in your favor. the balance and the similarities are too great to ignore that fact, i think by bending knee, Rand will be able to get the empress fortuona to do whatever he wants, therefor binding her to him. she has already suggested this, in her statement that if you combine them all under the seanchan flag you WILL have peace. well she doesnt quite realize that the flaw is with the marath damane and "black tempests" I believe she called them. anyways there are two groups of organized channelers at least, who are trying to do what is right. when he bends he needs to find a way to keep her in check, and i think that may have something to do with egwenes, seanchan handing her a adam dream. it was the full adam not just one end.

[Naffy]

This one is weird since she isn't the DotNM anymore. Maybe this was a mis-interpretation and it meant that Mat would bind her to him, since we know Mat and Perrin are mentioned in the prophecies.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that the Court of the Nine Moons is the Seanchan throne and the Daughter of the Nine Moons is just the heir to that throne.