The Sun Throne

[Moon Sedai]

Has Elayne ever really expressed a desire for Cairhien?

Rand seemed so determined to ensure that his Lady Love gets Cairhien that I don't remember him ever actually asking if she wanted it, or her telling him otherwise.

I know that Elayne was more focused on securing Andor before looking towards Cairhien, but suppose she decides "Andor is Enough, i don't want Cairhein as well?" (I know, it's a silly idea, what royal-type person would refuse an extra portion of country, right?)

But suppose that happens. Queen Elayne Sedai refuses to rule two countries at once, or join them together a la Scotland/England King James.

Who Rules Cairhien?

Dobraine?

Galad? (with his rumored future love Berelain?

[Durinax]

well I think that she has expressed interest but that she has decided not too until she has consolidated her rule over andor and has things running smoothly

[Byzantine279]

He could always stare at Moiraine once she gets back until she accepts the throne (though, that would take him borrowing cads stare for a bit).

[Moon Sedai]

I can see the staring contest now. . . Except, in my mind, Moiraine would have to stare at Rand while standing on a box, on horseback, or something, so she can stare him in the eyes.

[Val Mickey]

If he survives the Last Battle, Rand himself will take the Sun Throne.

[dovien]

Yes, Elayne is aware she has a right to make a claim and she plans to put it forward once Andor is secure.

It's only mentioned once (from her point of view) that I can remember.

[JenniferL]

If Elayne refuses to Sun Throne, one of her brothers might be able to press a claim. However, Galad is with the Whitecloaks and Gawyn has responsibilities as First Prince of the Sword in Andor. Galad could never rule in Cairhien, he's far too good to last very long in a country that prides itself on plotting and scheming. And Gawyn? Oh god no. He'd make an awful ruler. Moiraine has a claim, but she doesn't want it. Out of the descendants of Laman Damodred Elayne is the best shot.

 

The other option, House Riatin, isn't an option. The only member we know of is Toram and he was corrupted by Fain. That would be an awful, awful idea.

[Zyntras]

perhaps morgase lays a claim on the sun throne ? she has some right to it after all

[Swithin]

Thom Merrilin, master Queenmaker, may have something to say about that (without Moiraine's knowledge, of course.)

[JenniferL]

perhaps morgase lays a claim on the sun throne ? she has some right to it after all

 

Her right to it comes from her marriage to Taringail Damodred, who was the father of her children. If she had claimed the Sun Throne as Queen of Andor, she would have been claiming it on behalf of her heir, Elayne. It was a really flimsy claim and the only reason she even considered it previously was because Rhavin was Compelling her. If Elayne presses her rights in Cairhien, she might decide to set up Morgase as her Steward, but I don't see Morgase taking that throne in her own right. She really doesn't have any claim to it.

[Zyntras]

perhaps morgase lays a claim on the sun throne ? she has some right to it after all

 

Her right to it comes from her marriage to Taringail Damodred, who was the father of her children. If she had claimed the Sun Throne as Queen of Andor, she would have been claiming it on behalf of her heir, Elayne. It was a really flimsy claim and the only reason she even considered it previously was because Rhavin was Compelling her. If Elayne presses her rights in Cairhien, she might decide to set up Morgase as her Steward, but I don't see Morgase taking that throne in her own right. She really doesn't have any claim to it.

 

mhh yes your totaly right ofcourse :o was a stupied thought ^^ but i cant imagine what she will do now, perhaps she becomes elayns adviser

[Maji]

perhaps morgase lays a claim on the sun throne ? she has some right to it after all

 

Her right to it comes from her marriage to Taringail Damodred, who was the father of her children. If she had claimed the Sun Throne as Queen of Andor, she would have been claiming it on behalf of her heir, Elayne. It was a really flimsy claim and the only reason she even considered it previously was because Rhavin was Compelling her. If Elayne presses her rights in Cairhien, she might decide to set up Morgase as her Steward, but I don't see Morgase taking that throne in her own right. She really doesn't have any claim to it.

 

I'd like to see Morgase as a steward in Cairhien, I think she would do a commendable job. She was loved (until Rahvin showed up) in Camelyn after all. Although, Dobraine seems like he would be a good and loyal (at least he is to Rand) steward as well. I'm sure that would transfer over to Elayne if Rand only gave Dobraine the word or he if would about the babies, which I'm sure everyone will eventually.

[graendalzooescapee]

Surely, before he joined the Children, Galad had the best claim? He's actually in House Damodred, and he's Taringail's eldest son.

[hfel]

If Elayne refuses to Sun Throne, one of her brothers might be able to press a claim. However, Galad is with the Whitecloaks and Gawyn has responsibilities as First Prince of the Sword in Andor. Galad could never rule in Cairhien, he's far too good to last very long in a country that prides itself on plotting and scheming. And Gawyn? Oh god no. He'd make an awful ruler. Moiraine has a claim, but she doesn't want it. Out of the descendants of Laman Damodred Elayne is the best shot.

 

The other option, House Riatin, isn't an option. The only member we know of is Toram and he was corrupted by Fain. That would be an awful, awful idea.

 

But Galad's goodness combined with Berelain's political skills might be very welcome in a country tired of plotting and scheming. Didn't she and Rhuarc run Cairhien for a while? So they already know something of her. I recall some positive comment about her rule there, she definitely wasn't hated.

 

Didn't Lan kill Toram in Far Madding?

[Hand of the Creator]

If Elayne refuses to Sun Throne, one of her brothers might be able to press a claim. However, Galad is with the Whitecloaks and Gawyn has responsibilities as First Prince of the Sword in Andor. Galad could never rule in Cairhien, he's far too good to last very long in a country that prides itself on plotting and scheming. And Gawyn? Oh god no. He'd make an awful ruler. Moiraine has a claim, but she doesn't want it. Out of the descendants of Laman Damodred Elayne is the best shot.

 

The other option, House Riatin, isn't an option. The only member we know of is Toram and he was corrupted by Fain. That would be an awful, awful idea.

 

But Galad's goodness combined with Berelain's political skills might be very welcome in a country tired of plotting and scheming. Didn't she and Rhuarc run Cairhien for a while? So they already know something of her. I recall some positive comment about her rule there, she definitely wasn't hated.

 

Didn't Lan kill Toram in Far Madding?

 

Yes Toram is dead, but his sister is alive.

[Luckers]

One of the problems with Moiraine or Galad is neither has a political base--thats the thing everyones ignoring--the blood right, the ability to rule, these things are subsidiary to the ability to take the throne. In fact, in many ways the blood right just lets you into the fight for the throne, and in somewhere like Cairhein, the quality of your rule is merely an added bonus for the people should you gain the throne.

 

So yes, Galad and Moiraine both have the blood to get into the room in which the ruler is chosen. They would, in their own way, bring good things should they become the ruler--but they lack the backing needed to become the ruler. A ruler needs a financial and beuracratic base to hold and rule a kingdom--we see this whilst Elayne is taking the throne. Even though she had all the resources available to the one who holds the Royal Palace and Caemlyn, she would have failed without Trakands coffers, lands and armsmen.

 

By the same note, that is why Rand would fail should he try to hold his kingdoms past Tarmon Gai'don. His political base--the backing of the Aiel and people like Dobraine, Bashere and Darlin are based in his role as the Dragon. He himself has no base--he could possibly have made one from the Black Tower, but that ship has sailed, and their loyalty has not been secured beyond his role as the Dragon.

 

Moiraine, Gawyn and Galad simply do not have the resources to rule a nation. They lack any connections within House Damodred, and have no foreign base like House Trakand to lean on--if Gawyn or Galad tried, they'd be seen as the Andoran Queen's puppet. Better to have Elayne be the Cairhienin Queen, then have a King ruled by a foreign power, as weird as that is. Same goes if Galad tried to force his rule using the Whitecloaks--they are not strong enough, and lack the other resources Galad would need to rule.

 

Perhaps if Galad or Moiraine were willing to make themselves a puppet to whomever holds power amongst the Damodreds--but aside from the implausibility of that, there is the fact that if the Damodreds had to power to take the throne, they wouldn't need Moiraine or Galad. And certainly they wouldn't risk placing an Aes Sedai or the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light

 

 

Do they have the Blood right to announce a claim to the Throne? Yes. Would they have been good rulers? Perhaps. Do they have a hope in hell of taking, much less holding the throne? No.

[Zyntras]

Galad has some very good political arguments to claim the throne, which could give him backup within cairhien.

 

He has very good relations to: Caemlyn and the Whitecloaks => will reduce likelyhood of war very much and also gives a good basis for aliences against the seanchan.

 

he also has a good connection to the white tower through egwene, which would give him AS backup

 

and i think the royals in C. also know his reputation of being honest, though they could believe him

 

this makes it not easy for him in anyway to claim the throne, but perhaps possible

[Luckers]

The connection with the Whitecloaks would be a detriment, I think. In any case the Cairhienin wouldn't care about his honesty, and as for his connections to the Tower and to Andor, those would at best be minor speaking points--little tidbits thrown in once he'd secured a viable claim to the Throne. They are not themselves the basis of that claim.

 

And besides the Aes Sedai queen of Andor has better claims to friendship with the Tower and Andor than the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light.

[Zyntras]

The connection with the Whitecloaks would be a detriment, I think. In any case the Cairhienin wouldn't care about his honesty, and as for his connections to the Tower and to Andor, those would at best be minor speaking points--little tidbits thrown in once he'd secured a viable claim to the Throne. They are not themselves the basis of that claim.

 

And besides the Aes Sedai queen of Andor has better claims to friendship with the Tower and Andor than the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light.

 

yeah, youre right :(

 

The only argument for Galad>Elayne would be their lifetime. Perhaps the nobles in Cairhien would dislike their ruler to life for 300+ years. It gives them less chance of grabbing the power for themselfes.

 

But still, i think you're right.

[Luckers]

I was actually thinking about how long Elayne would rule for earlier--based on her sense of adventure I think she'll probably abdicate to her daughter in about thirty years. It depends largely on the state of Andor and Cairhein (and where the threat of Seanchan expansionism stands)--I don't see Elayne walking away if she thought the nation needed her--but if she manages to stabalize the region after TG, and feels her daughter capable, I think she will walk away.

[TalonSpiritCat]

So is the Sun Throne as seen in the books Lamin's Sin? Ie, did Laman ever actually build his throne after cutting down the Tree, or was the wood wasted?

 

Laman cut down the Tree to build a throne which brought the Aiel which allowed Rand to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount so that 20 years later he could give the Throne to his future wife?

[haloun]

One of the problems with Moiraine or Galad is neither has a political base--thats the thing everyones ignoring--the blood right, the ability to rule, these things are subsidiary to the ability to take the throne. In fact, in many ways the blood right just lets you into the fight for the throne, and in somewhere like Cairhein, the quality of your rule is merely an added bonus for the people should you gain the throne.

 

So yes, Galad and Moiraine both have the blood to get into the room in which the ruler is chosen. They would, in their own way, bring good things should they become the ruler--but they lack the backing needed to become the ruler. A ruler needs a financial and beuracratic base to hold and rule a kingdom--we see this whilst Elayne is taking the throne. Even though she had all the resources available to the one who holds the Royal Palace and Caemlyn, she would have failed without Trakands coffers, lands and armsmen.

 

By the same note, that is why Rand would fail should he try to hold his kingdoms past Tarmon Gai'don. His political base--the backing of the Aiel and people like Dobraine, Bashere and Darlin are based in his role as the Dragon. He himself has no base--he could possibly have made one from the Black Tower, but that ship has sailed, and their loyalty has not been secured beyond his role as the Dragon.

 

Moiraine, Gawyn and Galad simply do not have the resources to rule a nation. They lack any connections within House Damodred, and have no foreign base like House Trakand to lean on--if Gawyn or Galad tried, they'd be seen as the Andoran Queen's puppet. Better to have Elayne be the Cairhienin Queen, then have a King ruled by a foreign power, as weird as that is. Same goes if Galad tried to force his rule using the Whitecloaks--they are not strong enough, and lack the other resources Galad would need to rule.

 

Perhaps if Galad or Moiraine were willing to make themselves a puppet to whomever holds power amongst the Damodreds--but aside from the implausibility of that, there is the fact that if the Damodreds had to power to take the throne, they wouldn't need Moiraine or Galad. And certainly they wouldn't risk placing an Aes Sedai or the Lord Captain Commander of the Children of the Light

 

 

Do they have the Blood right to announce a claim to the Throne? Yes. Would they have been good rulers? Perhaps. Do they have a hope in hell of taking, much less holding the throne? No.

 

 

I think moiraine has a good base outside of just her blood, especially if egwene tells her to. moiraine is aes sedai, and we all know how much they would love to have someone on the throne of any nation. andor has one, why not put one on the throne of cairhein as well. and if elayne says no and suggests moiraine, and then the last battle happens and the world is saved moiraine needs another cause to immerse herself in. she has the backing of the white tower, she could probably get the backing of the band of the red hand as well, especially since they technically started in cairhein and were originally made up of cairheinin noble men, and peasents. that gives her a military backing with the gold of tar valon as the monetary backing, she is aes sedai, and is no longer bound by the oaths if it is to be believed that she was severed when she went through the redstone terangreal. not that she would use the power as a weapon, but she could, plus she would by then have gateways so she could survive any seige just as elayne did, add to that her blood right, very valid claim and ability to take the throne should she decide to.

[yoniy0]

The problem with Elayne ascending to the Sun Throne is the same her father faced 20 years ago. A ruler of a foreign land cannot ascend to it by Cairhienian law, nor can the consort of a ruler. The law in question can only be changed by the current ruler, hence the predicament. Now, of course Rand could change that law for her, or Dobraine could on his request (or expressed wishes), but that brings everything back to Elayne receiving the crown from Rand, rather than making a claim by her own right. Will she do it? She didn't seem willing with Andor, but perhaps she wouldn't feel the same about Cairhien.

 

For that reason, I was thinking perhaps Darlin and Carline could unify Tear and Cairhien. They of course suffer from the same issue, but I don't think they'll have a problem with it. After all, did Rand not give them Tear's throne?

[Durinax]

Darlin was elected to the throne by the other high lords as a way to play down beign the Regent of the Lord Dragon or some such title.

 

I am unsure about the law that you cant be ruler of both Andor and Cairhein. After all Elayne is fairly popular in Cairhein as a ruler from what I recall

[Luckers]

I think moiraine has a good base outside of just her blood, especially if egwene tells her to

 

Yeah, coz that worked so well for Sierin. Also, none of that fixes the problem that Moiraine has no base in Cairhein. When Sierin was considering it Moiraine had been gone only six years. Her generation, those she grew up with, were firmly esconced in power--she had contacts, people knew her. That would have been a viable base for her claiming Damodred and the Throne--at least with Aes Sedai backing it would have.

 

But it's now been twenty years--even if people she grew up with still walk the halls of power in Cairhein its been too long.

 

and if elayne says no and suggests moiraine

 

Elayne's stated her intention to claim the throne. Moiraine has stated her absolute aversion to it.

 

the last battle happens and the world is saved moiraine needs another cause to immerse herself in.

 

My pet theory is that Moiraine will work with Thom on the reintergration of male channelers into society. Either way, Cairhein is very unlikely.