Chapter 1 "Apples First"

[Terez]

Wouldn't it be swell if at the end of the series or towards the end, we hear Rand say. "I've won again Shaitan". I just think it would be an awesome shout out to book 2 and Rand hearing Baalzamon's / Ishy's voice saying "I've won again Lews Therrin" hundreds of times. Anyway just my take on things.

 

My take is that Rand will hear "I have one again, Lews Therin" as he dies. Moridin will think he's won. Then Rand gets resurrected.

 

I especially like the scenario where Moridin gets killed by someone else. Like Mat.

[Rcurran]

You think Rand will win due the dark ones accidental use of punnery? One, Won, Mordin's confusion and subsequent defeat is likely yet improabable.

[ShenAnCalhar]

That being said. I truly think that even though the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are the same soul reborn over eternity, a thousand times a thousand times, "The Dragon Reborn" Is built on an entirely different scope and scale as "The Dragon". He is meant to see his past lives. Lews therrin was never meant to see who he had been before. Rand is meant to see the mistakes of other past lives. He's seen them in The Great Hunt through the botched portal stone run to Falme. He's meant to understand how to defeat or seal away the dark one for 3 ages. Therefore he's meant to have powers greater than Taveren or the pattern intself. The dragon reborn has done this several times over the course of the turning of the wheel.

 

I've always subscribed to this theory, and it's put very eloquently here. If LTT recalled past memories, you'd expect a kind of Bene Gesserit "Other Memory" thing (to make a Dune comparison), where memory extends back to the very first of the line.

 

As far as The Dragon Reborn somehow defeating the Great Lord for another 3 ages, I've always kind of hoped that something more unique happens. I'd like to see Rand break the Wheel of Time; to end the cyclic madness. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it since that's what the Great Lord is after - he should break the axle, so that the Wheel is free to move elsewhere. His revelations at the end of TGS seem to make that less likely, but I don't totally buy into them. Yes, the "having another life to correct wrongs" thing is cool, but only him and a very select few others actually remember past lives enough for this to make a difference. You already get to make up for your mistakes within a single lifetime. I'm hoping he has a further revelation along these lines.

 

Mainly I think the cyclic time-path is bad because going through a series of apocalypses over and over again isn't good way for a society to advance (enter the argument that technology doesn't in fact make things better). I'm of the opinion that progress is a good thing, and progress seems to be reset to zero every time the Wheel turns again. At the very least, no one would have to cry about the lack of shock lances anymore.

[Terez]

You think Rand will win due the dark ones accidental use of punnery? One, Won, Mordin's confusion and subsequent defeat is likely yet improabable.

lol, typo. Watch out Luckers!

[farthammer]

Apples will be used to feed the bats necessary to produce mountains of turds Aludra's dragons need.

[Sid]

Apples will be used to feed the bats necessary to produce mountains of turds Aludra's dragons need.

Genius!

 

actually in this case it would be called 'guano' though.

[Chriswot]

View PostChriswot, on 12 October 2010 - 02:20 AM, said:

Wouldn't it be swell if at the end of the series or towards the end, we hear Rand say. "I've won again Shaitan". I just think it would be an awesome shout out to book 2 and Rand hearing Baalzamon's / Ishy's voice saying "I've won again Lews Therrin" hundreds of times. Anyway just my take on things.

 

 

My take is that Rand will hear "I have one again, Lews Therin" as he dies. Moridin will think he's won. Then Rand gets resurrected.

 

I especially like the scenario where Moridin gets killed by someone else. Like Mat.

 

Yeah Terez. Lets just hope its not done flashback style similar to Couladin's head on a pike.

 

ShenAnCalhar

 

Posted Today, 02:55 PM

 

View PostChriswot, on 12 October 2010 - 02:20 AM, said:

That being said. I truly think that even though the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn are the same soul reborn over eternity, a thousand times a thousand times, "The Dragon Reborn" Is built on an entirely different scope and scale as "The Dragon". He is meant to see his past lives. Lews therrin was never meant to see who he had been before. Rand is meant to see the mistakes of other past lives. He's seen them in The Great Hunt through the botched portal stone run to Falme. He's meant to understand how to defeat or seal away the dark one for 3 ages. Therefore he's meant to have powers greater than Taveren or the pattern intself. The dragon reborn has done this several times over the course of the turning of the wheel.

 

 

I've always subscribed to this theory, and it's put very eloquently here. If LTT recalled past memories, you'd expect a kind of Bene Gesserit "Other Memory" thing (to make a Dune comparison), where memory extends back to the very first of the line.

 

As far as The Dragon Reborn somehow defeating the Great Lord for another 3 ages, I've always kind of hoped that something more unique happens. I'd like to see Rand break the Wheel of Time; to end the cyclic madness. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it since that's what the Great Lord is after - he should break the axle, so that the Wheel is free to move elsewhere. His revelations at the end of TGS seem to make that less likely, but I don't totally buy into them. Yes, the "having another life to correct wrongs" thing is cool, but only him and a very select few others actually remember past lives enough for this to make a difference. You already get to make up for your mistakes within a single lifetime. I'm hoping he has a further revelation along these lines.

 

Mainly I think the cyclic time-path is bad because going through a series of apocalypses over and over again isn't good way for a society to advance (enter the argument that technology doesn't in fact make things better). I'm of the opinion that progress is a good thing, and progress seems to be reset to zero every time the Wheel turns again. At the very least, no one would have to cry about the lack of shock lances anymore.

 

I think no matter how the story ends it will be amazing. However some options could be more shallow than others. I like your idea of the wheel being unhinged from the dark ones presence. When I read your post i imagined a big celestial wheel spinning in space, rolling away from a black hole. Leaving the black hole behind. Can we really leave the dark one behind though? If you think about it as Evil being a force that exists because humans exist, would it really be as simple as that to just leave evil behind? To forget about the very nature of Evil you have to see that it comes from human nature. All of us and the wheel of time characters for that matter have the potential to be evil. I think The Creator aka Robert Jordan realized this fact all too well.

 

Seeing how he's told us for almost 20 years that he's had the ending in his head since the begining, and the nature of the evil he created (Similar to some of our own beliefs and customs, Satan etc), I think it would be a disservice to us all if the dark one was just destroyed. Either way however I think I'll be satisfied just knowing how it ends.

 

farthammer

 

Posted Today, 08:20 PM

Apples will be used to feed the bats necessary to produce mountains of turds Aludra's dragons need.

 

Leave it to a farthammer to talk about poo :P

[graendalzooescapee]

I think no matter how the story ends it will be amazing. However some options could be more shallow than others. I like your idea of the wheel being unhinged from the dark ones presence. When I read your post i imagined a big celestial wheel spinning in space, rolling away from a black hole. Leaving the black hole behind. Can we really leave the dark one behind though? If you think about it as Evil being a force that exists because humans exist, would it really be as simple as that to just leave evil behind? To forget about the very nature of Evil you have to see that it comes from human nature. All of us and the wheel of time characters for that matter have the potential to be evil. I think The Creator aka Robert Jordan realized this fact all too well.

 

I don't think we can assume that all human evil comes from the DO. There seems to have been some evil in the AOL--at least, there was crime, hence the need for binding. And if the Age of Myths is our world, you really can't argue that there's no evil! But all this takes place while the DO is bound. Humans in WOT are perfectly capable of being evil with or without the DO.

[duncanwright]

As far as The Dragon Reborn somehow defeating the Great Lord for another 3 ages, I've always kind of hoped that something more unique happens. I'd like to see Rand break the Wheel of Time; to end the cyclic madness. Or maybe that's the wrong way to put it since that's what the Great Lord is after - he should break the axle, so that the Wheel is free to move elsewhere. His revelations at the end of TGS seem to make that less likely, but I don't totally buy into them. Yes, the "having another life to correct wrongs" thing is cool, but only him and a very select few others actually remember past lives enough for this to make a difference. You already get to make up for your mistakes within a single lifetime. I'm hoping he has a further revelation along these lines.

 

Mainly I think the cyclic time-path is bad because going through a series of apocalypses over and over again isn't good way for a society to advance (enter the argument that technology doesn't in fact make things better). I'm of the opinion that progress is a good thing, and progress seems to be reset to zero every time the Wheel turns again. At the very least, no one would have to cry about the lack of shock lances anymore.

 

I think that given RJ's science background it is likely he too felt that the WoT world was not advancing. Most (but not all) scientists believe in cumulative knowledge representing progress. I think that the WoT world is meant to be the perfect example of not progressing. The fact that at least Fain is unique to this turning means that a different outcome from the same old turning is possible, maybe even probable.

 

 

I think no matter how the story ends it will be amazing. However some options could be more shallow than others. I like your idea of the wheel being unhinged from the dark ones presence. When I read your post i imagined a big celestial wheel spinning in space, rolling away from a black hole. Leaving the black hole behind. Can we really leave the dark one behind though? If you think about it as Evil being a force that exists because humans exist, would it really be as simple as that to just leave evil behind? To forget about the very nature of Evil you have to see that it comes from human nature. All of us and the wheel of time characters for that matter have the potential to be evil. I think The Creator aka Robert Jordan realized this fact all too well.

 

I don't think we can assume that all human evil comes from the DO. There seems to have been some evil in the AOL--at least, there was crime, hence the need for binding. And if the Age of Myths is our world, you really can't argue that there's no evil! But all this takes place while the DO is bound. Humans in WOT are perfectly capable of being evil with or without the DO.

 

I think the DO is an external evil that takes advantage of the evil of man and hence can be vanquished (or perhaps permanently detained through Fain or the 'Powers' Mordeth found).

 

Though the interpretation of Herid Fel's "belief and order give strength" meaning the belief and order of the populace of WoT affect the patterns (or the Creators or Rands) ability to resist the effects of the DO, implies a link between the state of the peoples of WoT and the DO which might support the DOs evil originating from mans evil.

 

I personally hope that the cyclic nature of the WoT will be left behind (probably along with the one power since it supposedly drives the wheel and weaves the pattern etc) and they can forge ahead into an unknown future without the DO (perhaps a little too childrens scifi, but that is what I was brought up on....).

[Lisa Campbell]

Though the interpretation of Herid Fel's "belief and order give strength" meaning the belief and order of the populace of WoT affect the patterns (or the Creators or Rands) ability to resist the effects of the DO, implies a link between the state of the peoples of WoT and the DO which might support the DOs evil originating from mans evil.

 

I personally hope that the cyclic nature of the WoT will be left behind (probably along with the one power since it supposedly drives the wheel and weaves the pattern etc) and they can forge ahead into an unknown future without the DO (perhaps a little too childrens scifi, but that is what I was brought up on....).

 

 

I kind of agree with you here or at least I agree that it is possible. My thoughts run along the lines of some kind of mass ascension of the people (or a remnant of the people). Perhaps something to do with the book of translation or the Amayar belief that the age of illusion being over or even the Aiel's belief that life is a dream. Which would neatly tie in the alternate worlds and TAR.

[jdbond]

Don't we get a prophecy in every book that kinda says that Dragon will be born in this age and ages to come, again and again? I don't understand why people believe this Dragon can do anything that last Dragon failed to do? It's in Dragon's nature to be born and fight DO again and again. The sole reason for it's creation.

 

P.S: Min also gives a glimpse of possible future where DO was defeated, again.

[Duskfire]

Don't we get a prophecy in every book that kinda says that Dragon will born in this age and ages to come, again and again? I don't understand why people believe this Dragon can do anything that last Dragon failed to do? It's in Dragon's nature to be born and fight DO again and again. The sole reason for it's creation.

 

P.S: Min also gives a glimpse of possible future where DO was defeated, again.

 

Its because Fain is unique to this turning. So therefore, the result can be different because of that unique variable.

[Cyf]

Someone posted them in another thread, but Jordan said pretty much explicitly this Age is like the others, and there's not going to be any bringing of linear time. :)

 

Edited to add the quote:

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]

[duncanwright]

Yes, this thread and 'Thing in the blight' are crossing paths and I'm not certain whether to reply here or there.

 

The thing is this:

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]

and this:

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Don't mix. Unless:

1 Fain's uniqueness, while interesting, is not a massively Pattern/Wheel altering event (I don't think this is the case myself)

2 We get rid of the Wheel or go to a reality without the Wheel (RJ didn't discount this possibility in his statement I think)

3 Other things I haven't thought of?

 

Is it generally agreed that the DOs influence/actions define the ages, hence without the/a DO the Wheel cannot continue?

 

If the Wheel stays then the best that can be hoped for is a 'standard' sealing away of the/a DO or else he couldn't come back in later ages. As I said earlier, to me this would be a little disappointing.

 

Though we also have this (from the 'Thing in the blight' thread):

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

RJ: The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

https://docs.google....pjqg_74xw3j58sj

 

If the Wheel and the Pattern are the same (the Pattern keeps everything in line for another turning of the Wheel) then there may be no way to get away from the Wheel. Though perhaps from

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj

 

there may be other Wheels that can turn without the DO? Though BS says this may be outside of the scope of the books, so this is unlikely to be the ending RJ had in mind from the start.

 

Writing this has made me think that perhaps we are in for an almost standard turning of the Wheel since (in my mind) the Wheel needs a DO, the Wheel cannot be escaped (or at least this isn't likely the ending planned from the start) and because the Pattern keeps the Wheel turning and without the Pattern reality unravels (ghosts etc.) so we can't get rid of the Pattern.

In a glimmer of hope: Can Rand reprogram the Pattern? (Its kind of like a machine RJ was quoted somewhere as saying) Keep it turning but with new definitions of ages without the DO? I'm not sure that would make sense ....

[Zyntras]

a things that just popped into my mind:

 

will Rand now realy be insane, if he merged with his LTT persona? or has he overcome his madness?

[jdbond]

a things that just popped into my mind:

 

will Rand now realy be insane, if he merged with his LTT persona? or has he overcome his madness?

 

 

Later.

[jdbond]

Yes, this thread and 'Thing in the blight' are crossing paths and I'm not certain whether to reply here or there.

 

The thing is this:

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001- Sorilea reporting

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]

and this:

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

 

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

 

RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Don't mix. Unless:

1 Fain's uniqueness, while interesting, is not a massively Pattern/Wheel altering event (I don't think this is the case myself)

2 We get rid of the Wheel or go to a reality without the Wheel (RJ didn't discount this possibility in his statement I think)

3 Other things I haven't thought of?

 

Is it generally agreed that the DOs influence/actions define the ages, hence without the/a DO the Wheel cannot continue?

 

If the Wheel stays then the best that can be hoped for is a 'standard' sealing away of the/a DO or else he couldn't come back in later ages. As I said earlier, to me this would be a little disappointing.

 

Though we also have this (from the 'Thing in the blight' thread):

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

 

RJ: The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

https://docs.google....pjqg_74xw3j58sj

 

If the Wheel and the Pattern are the same (the Pattern keeps everything in line for another turning of the Wheel) then there may be no way to get away from the Wheel. Though perhaps from

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj

 

there may be other Wheels that can turn without the DO? Though BS says this may be outside of the scope of the books, so this is unlikely to be the ending RJ had in mind from the start.

 

Writing this has made me think that perhaps we are in for an almost standard turning of the Wheel since (in my mind) the Wheel needs a DO, the Wheel cannot be escaped (or at least this isn't likely the ending planned from the start) and because the Pattern keeps the Wheel turning and without the Pattern reality unravels (ghosts etc.) so we can't get rid of the Pattern.

In a glimmer of hope: Can Rand reprogram the Pattern? (Its kind of like a machine RJ was quoted somewhere as saying) Keep it turning but with new definitions of ages without the DO? I'm not sure that would make sense ....

 

 

Unique though Mordethain might be, he is not that big of a factor to bring major changes to the outcome. Remember, he has failed like half a dozen times to kill Dragon and all the time, he was the one running from fight.

 

Wheel weaves the pattern. Without wheel, there is no pattern, no universe, no world, no people nothing. That's why DO wants to destroy it!

[Zyntras]

oh yeah another thing just popped up;

 

what if the Aiel&amayan (sp) are right ? and this is all a dream [dream world] of the real world. (matrix style)

[jdbond]

Then I will go to wherever RJ is and beat him silly..and then I will come back for Brandon.

[duncanwright]

 

Unique though Mordethain might be, he is not that big of a factor to bring major changes to the outcome. Remember, he has failed like half a dozen times to kill Dragon and all the time, he was the one running from fight.

That is true. But surely the reason for having something unique to this particular age is so that the outcome can be (at least a little) different from previous turnings.

 

 

Wheel weaves the pattern. Without wheel, there is no pattern, no universe, no world, no people nothing. That's why DO wants to destroy it!

I think this is probably true. But given BSs statements along the lines of 'is it a multiverse?' and 'is there more than one Wheel?' combined with the fact that we are only to know what is (or has been?) known by those in the WoT world, then I'm not certain that we can know that what you have said is true for certain (unless RJ/BS has stated it very explicitly). Because I think that statements in the books about destroying the Wheel/Pattern would destroy the Universe are only peoples opinions and not fact. I concede that I may be completely wrong on this point.

 

I guess what I'm asking is:

Can any reality continue to exist without the DO and/or the Wheel?

and

Can the Wheels programming (for lack of a better term for the basic design that it tries to produce for each age) be changed? Not specific things but the general design being changed.

 

Another note: If the Creator created the Wheel and everything, then either it (the Creator) made it so that the DO would come and go as he/it has (which seems odd given the Creator is said to have sealed him away at the moment of Creation in, one assumes, an attempt to protect the creation- this is perhaps WoT 'religious' propoganda) OR the DO has found a way to change the programming of the Wheel.

 

Finally: If the DO destroyed the Wheel and the Pattern and everything, wouldn't the Creator make another one (probably the same?).

[jdbond]

 

Unique though Mordethain might be, he is not that big of a factor to bring major changes to the outcome. Remember, he has failed like half a dozen times to kill Dragon and all the time, he was the one running from fight.

That is true. But surely the reason for having something unique to this particular age is so that the outcome can be (at least a little) different from previous turnings.

 

Different will be Rand not repeating the mistakes of LTT and not going down in history as another most hated Dragon.

 

Wheel weaves the pattern. Without wheel, there is no pattern, no universe, no world, no people nothing. That's why DO wants to destroy it!

I think this is probably true. But given BSs statements along the lines of 'is it a multiverse?' and 'is there more than one Wheel?' combined with the fact that we are only to know what is (or has been?) known by those in the WoT world, then I'm not certain that we can know that what you have said is true for certain (unless RJ/BS has stated it very explicitly). Because I think that statements in the books about destroying the Wheel/Pattern would destroy the Universe are only peoples opinions and not fact. I concede that I may be completely wrong on this point.

 

Someone asked Brandon about balefire Rand used on Natrim Burrow and Brandon has confirmed that every object has thread in the pattern, even the inanimate ones. When wheel is gone (thing that weaves the pattern), how can there be anything..Just ranting;)

 

I guess what I'm asking is:

Can any reality continue to exist without the DO and/or the Wheel?

 

For Creator and DO, reality can exist without the wheel. People are like cotton threads on a shirt. If loom is not making anymore threads, people cannot exist.

 

I think wheel can exist without DO. They are mutually exclusive items.

 

and

Can the Wheels programming (for lack of a better term for the basic design that it tries to produce for each age) be changed? Not specific things but the general design being changed.

 

If DO can break it, he just might ...build a new universe in his own image.

Another note: If the Creator created the Wheel and everything, then either it (the Creator) made it so that the DO would come and go as he/it has (which seems odd given the Creator is said to have sealed him away at the moment of Creation in, one assumes, an attempt to protect the creation- this is perhaps WoT 'religious' propoganda) OR the DO has found a way to change the programming of the Wheel.

 

DO is coming and going?

 

Finally: If the DO destroyed the Wheel and the Pattern and everything, wouldn't the Creator make another one (probably the same?).

 

I am pretty sure if DO breaks free, Creator will whoop his arse again and put him back into a new prison. Or this time, he might just kill it...

[Naffy]

People sure do look too deeply into this series.................

[duncanwright]

 

Different will be Rand not repeating the mistakes of LTT and not going down in history as another most hated Dragon.

 

That wouldn't be different. LTT is the AOL Dragon soul incarnate, but I mean different for the 3rd age incarnate. Last time round, in the third age I assume the DO was sealed away again, not to be discovered until the next AOL - though I have no idea of the other ages until the next AOL so perhaps the last 3rd age DR did a crap job and the DO influenced the world again in the 5th or 6th age only to be resealed again in the 7th - who knows?

 

Someone asked Brandon about balefire Rand used on Natrim Burrow and Brandon has confirmed that every object has thread in the pattern, even the inanimate ones. When wheel is gone (thing that weaves the pattern), how can there be anything..Just ranting;)

I agree with you, I just want a way out of the cycle, but perhaps I'm wrong to want that ....

 

For Creator and DO, reality can exist without the wheel. People are like cotton threads on a shirt. If loom is not making anymore threads, people cannot exist.

 

I think wheel can exist without DO. They are mutually exclusive items.

I agree again, but the Wheel cannot complete its current program without the DOs influence e.g. there wouldn't be a need for the DR because there would be no DOs influence.

 

If DO can break it, he just might ...build a new universe in his own image.

I don't know what to think about this :)

 

DO is coming and going?

The DOs influence I mean. Sometimes (some ages) the WoT world knows about him, others they don't.

 

I am pretty sure if DO breaks free, Creator will whoop his arse again and put him back into a new prison. Or this time, he might just kill it...

I think the Creator and the DO are considered equals in 'power' so perhaps the DO will be just put in his time-out zone again.

 

People sure do look too deeply into this series.................

Indeed, some people are crazy ... but speculation about things we know little about, even imaginary things, is an entertaining pastime. :)

[Zyntras]

is it confirmed that the DO and the Creater are 2 distinct entities? or just the good and the evil part of one entity. and the 'creator' only sealed the 'evil' part of him away and setup the pattern as a guardian?

 

and i dont think this has anything to do with the topic anymore ^^ sorry for spam :o

[jdbond]

While the idea of reincarnation and ages is taken from Hinduism, Creator and DO are coming straight from Bible (with a twist). I am not sure Creator and DO are equal, assumption being that Creator is creator of everything, not just this universe.