Which is the real Elan

[RedRaider]

I recently did a reread of The Gathering Storm and in it Moridin is described as non emotional and very pragmatic. Even on the forums he is spoken of as turning to the Shadow because he saw no rational way for the Light to win. So in his mind it simply made sense to change teams and hasten the end. He really didn't seek glory or power for himself but didn't see the need to struggle in a losing battle. My problem is in the prologue of tEoTW he is very vain and full of hate. He tells LT he will kneel before him and worship him and he will make LT know pain. He is all about power and self glorification and making those who fought against him pay the ultimate price. This just doesn't fit with the Moridin that we see aid Rand at SL and chat with Rand throughout the series.

Was this Moridin in tEoTW or was someone posing as him?

[Demiandre]

It was Ishamael posing as the DO. Ishamael is a nihilist. Pure and strong.

[GYLD]

Moridin may have turned to the Shadow for what he thought were rational reasons, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of being irrational. He has contempt towards anyone he feels is below him, as we see in his PoVs whenever third age channelers come up, and likely he feels everyone but the DO below him. His vindictiveness towards Lews Therin could be explained not unlike Demandred's. Lews Therin was considered the greatest mind of the AoL, even over Elan, yet he didn't see or couldn't accept the supposed obvious truth. I'm getting in to conjecture here, but perhaps Lews Therin/Rand kneeling and acknowledging Elan is what he thinks he needs to be proven absolutely right.

 

And of course, getting high off the True Power all the time likely leaves someone a tad unstable.

 

As for his later interaction with Rand in TGS, just as Moridin's nihilism was effecting Rand through their link, so was Rand's personality effecting Moridin.

 

It was Ishamael posing as the DO. Ishamael is a nihilist. Pure and strong.

 

Not in the EotW prologue. He's referred to as Elan, Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, but never Balnazaar or the Dark One or what have you.

[OptimusPrime]

What I think is that while Elan is indeed the nihilist, his personality will have been affected by his True Power usage also, but only in that it will have enhanced a cynical calculation already reached. Im not saying he was in any way compromised prior to turning, I think he was a nasty soab from the get go, an incredibly powerful spoilt brat. He took it upon himself to make the decision that humanity would be better off being dead entirely instead of living a few more turnings before the "intevitable." However logical and merciful that thought might have originally been, actually acting upon it is the start of the changing into the Ishamael we know and love. A philosopher of such power and renown such as Elan must have known the drastic effects his actions could have had on society, what with the prestige he already had and all. The fact that he not only took it upon himself to instigate what he would call mass euthanasia, but that he publicly announced that he was doing so, that in my mind is what makes him Ishamael. I like to believe that his sanity was not in question at the time that he reached these decisions. The Ishamael we see Rand encounter in my mind was the end product of True Power usage, a man who has channeled so much of the Dark Ones essence the Ishamael thought he was the Dark One half the time. Moridin reminds me more of the beginning stages of True Power corruption, where he feels little beyond rage and amusement, where he is almost completely emotionally dead due to his humanity wearing away with True Power use, yet not beginning to resemble Shadowspawn yet.

 

I'd love it if in AMoLs epilogue had him returned to the world again, the Dark One having reincarnated him just before the Bore was resealed. If any Forsaken survived TG Id like it to be him, especially if it was portrayed that Rands dying and living again enabled Moridin to die and live again again muhahahaaa

[Demiandre]

Ba'alzamon appeared later. It is the name of the betrayer of hope in the Trolloc tongue. As time passed, it passed as being the DO name in the Trolloc Tongue (or the other way round, don't remember) which caused the quiproquo between the two. And Ishy's way of speaking in the first book shows that he try to pretend he is the Dark One.

[GYLD]

Oh right, the name is Ba'alzamon. Got my fantasy series mixed up.

 

Anyhow, Ishamael pretends to Rand and the others to be the Dark One, but not to Lews Therin at the time of his death, which is what the topic creator was referring to. Ishamael even mentions his defeat at the Gates of Paaran Disen which if he were pretending to be the DO would not make much sense.

[omer681]

Ba'alzamon appeared later. It is the name of the betrayer of hope in the Trolloc tongue. As time passed, it passed as being the DO name in the Trolloc Tongue (or the other way round, don't remember) which caused the quiproquo between the two. And Ishy's way of speaking in the first book shows that he try to pretend he is the Dark One.

Ba'alzamon is Heart of the Dark I think.

 

Oh right, the name is Ba'alzamon. Got my fantasy series mixed up.

 

Anyhow, Ishamael pretends to Rand and the others to be the Dark One, but not to Lews Therin at the time of his death, which is what the topic creator was referring to. Ishamael even mentions his defeat at the Gates of Paaran Disen which if he were pretending to be the DO would not make much sense.

Lol, with which fantasy series you got confused with?

Edit: It's Warcraft... not exactly a fantasy series, but still alot of lore.

[Byzantine279]

Moridin and Rand have been exposed to each other on the deepest level possible, their souls are linked. Basically, a bit of Rand is rubbing off on him, and some of him is rubbing off on Rand, which is part of why Rand was so "nothing matter" in tGS (or at least, that might be a possibility). It is quite possible that if Rand really did throw off the darkness in VoG that it will begin leaking deeper in Elan, perhaps we will get to meet who Elan really was before the end of this. It is clear from the way they talked in TAR that Lew Therin and Elan knew one another, i would't doubt Lews was his friend before all of this happened.

 

Elan fell to what he believed was logic, even though as several people have discovered on the forums there are reasons to believe that his logic was flawed. It is very likely that if you present to him a situation in which the Shadow loses once and for all that he will leap at the chance, simply because he wants the war to end I don't think he cares anymore which side wins, i don't think he ever cared he just, like Rand, wanted it all to end.

[Kaznen]

Moridin and Rand have been exposed to each other on the deepest level possible, their souls are linked. Basically, a bit of Rand is rubbing off on him, and some of him is rubbing off on Rand, which is part of why Rand was so "nothing matter" in tGS (or at least, that might be a possibility). It is quite possible that if Rand really did throw off the darkness in VoG that it will begin leaking deeper in Eban, perhaps we will get to meet who Eban really was before the end of this. It is clear from the way they talked in TAR that Lew Therin and Eban knew one another, i would't doubt Lews was his friend before all of this happened.

 

Eban fell to what he believed was logic, even though as several people have discovered on the forums there are reasons to believe that his logic was flawed. It is very likely that if you present to him a situation in which the Shadow loses once and for all that he will leap at the chance, simply because he wants the war to end I don't think he cares anymore which side wins, i don't think he ever cared he just, like Rand, wanted it all to end.

Ahhhhhh!, no no no no!

 

Mordin/Ishmael's Pre-forsaken name was Elan Morin Tedronai not Eban.

 

The only character named Eban was Eban Hopwil, and AM who was killed by Aran'gar during the cleansing in WH.

Eban is a hero in the story, Elan is a villian.

[Demiandre]

Eben Hopwil. Eban, is Bandar Eban.

[OptimusPrime]

Ba'alzamon appeared later. It is the name of the betrayer of hope in the Trolloc tongue. As time passed, it passed as being the DO name in the Trolloc Tongue (or the other way round, don't remember) which caused the quiproquo between the two. And Ishy's way of speaking in the first book shows that he try to pretend he is the Dark One.

 

Didnt one of the Forsaken note in their PoV that half of the time Ishamael thought he was the Dark One though, the same PoV where the "more than half mad, less than half human" remark?

[Byzantine279]

Meh, i was one letter off no reason to jump me. And i fixed it. Ohh, and you were a letter off too

[BrandonXRoss]

The shift in attitude is most likely due in part to their soul's being linked.

 

Though, it doesn't seem like a complete explanation to me. The shift in Moridin's personality is almost extreme, while the shift in Rand's personality does not go to the same length. Additionally, Rand's personality shifting is largely due to character development from all of the trauma, stress, and lingering madness from the taint. If we account for those, it might seem as though Moridin was the only one changed by the link.

 

One argument is that being recycled by the DO can cause shifts in personality. The other forsaken who were recycled seem to have similar changes, although 2 of those examples crossed genders. A possible exception is Lanfear who seems more or less the same, although restricted by a mind trap.

However, the change in personality for Moridin seems to occur directly after being recycled. Who can say what effects being recycled without being "reborn" can have on someone?

 

Another possibility is that Robert Jordan just got tired of Ishamael's character and decided to redo him. He planned everything out really well so that most things were consistent to a realistic extent, but it's not unheard of for someone to have a change in creative direction and intention once every few years or so...

 

(edit: Edited because I posted in the default font and I don't like fonts that aren't Courier New )

[rshipers]

I agree that Moridin's personality seemed a lot different from Ishamaels. Ishamael was crazy thinking that he was the dark one, but Moridin seems fine other than his True Power addiction. Just after my first read of the series I started lurking about Dragonmount and couldn't figure out how we knew which forsaken was recycled as who (other than Cyndane/Lanfear). I knew they were some of the forsaken that were killed off earlier, but had no idea which was which. Eventually I did see it especially when I read through the series again. To my credit though I read the first 11 books in about 3 months, so I didn't pick up on a lot of those things.

[Byzantine279]

I would think that perhaps the idea that the DO may not ever win may be what hit him. After being killed by Rand the first time, and seeing Rand do the impossible and cleanse Saidin... I think Elan may be questioning if his logic is right, and thus if he made the "right" choice. Basically, he may be susceptible to believing that Rand can end this once and for all.

[Kaznen]

The shift in attitude is most likely due in part to their soul's being linked.

 

Though, it doesn't seem like a complete explanation to me. The shift in Moridin's personality is almost extreme, while the shift in Rand's personality does not go to the same length. Additionally, Rand's personality shifting is largely due to character development from all of the trauma, stress, and lingering madness from the taint. If we account for those, it might seem as though Moridin was the only one changed by the link.

 

One argument is that being recycled by the DO can cause shifts in personality. The other forsaken who were recycled seem to have similar changes, although 2 of those examples crossed genders. A possible exception is Lanfear who seems more or less the same, although restricted by a mind trap.

However, the change in personality for Moridin seems to occur directly after being recycled. Who can say what effects being recycled without being "reborn" can have on someone?

 

Another possibility is that Robert Jordan just got tired of Ishamael's character and decided to redo him. He planned everything out really well so that most things were consistent to a realistic extent, but it's not unheard of for someone to have a change in creative direction and intention once every few years or so...

 

(edit: Edited because I posted in the default font and I don't like fonts that aren't Courier New )

AH! Serif Fonts...On screen...hurts my eyes, can't read....

[dwn]

We learn from Verin that the DO looks for selfishness in his highest servants. What could be more selfish than wanting to undo creation itself because your nihilistic logic has led you to despair?

 

IMO, one of the best possible endings would be Moridin 'throwing the game' and letting/helping Rand win. The Betrayer of Hope himself finds renewed hope.

 

-- dwn

[Vassili]

I can't believe I remembered my login after 5-7 years.

 

Anyway, ive often wondered about Ishamaels personality change, especially on rereading the series after TGS.

 

Its possible that Elan was a nihilist prior to going over to the Shadow, but after years of almost exclusive TP use the once quiet pondering Elan turned in to the fiery mad man Ishamael. Since this personality change wasn't natural, but the result of an exterior force, it was lost when Ishy was reincarnated as Moridin, thus Moridin is more like the Elan of old. After all, when men who can channel are reborn, they aren't still insane. However, being reincarnated is not quite the same as an ordinary rebirth... It depends, is TP insanity attached to the body, or the soul?

 

He could also have just been acting super scary as a way of manipulating novice Rand. If he though it would help the Shadow win, I'm sure Elan would act however was necessary without actually believing anything he said.

 

Still, if I had to vote, I'd vote retcon unless Brandon has a better explanation from RJ's notes.

[Vermillion]

I think Ishamael body was corrupted by TP. Moridin is a fresh start.

[Demiandre]

The shift in personality comes from a shift of purpose and target. He was posing as the DO to frighten Rand and/or turn him to the Dark side. Then he had to use him carefully according to the DO's plans. After his death in tDR, he could act in the background, laying plans that worked more or less in the DO's favor. He couldn't act as he had before, appearing in dreams and all.

 

The DO needed Rand alive, so Moridin savec Rand's life in Shadar Logoth. The DO was afraid Rand could remove the Taint, and needed the seals. So he stopped the standing order of not hurting Rand, and asked for all of Rand's belongings.

 

A different tool for a different purpose. A different aim, a different weapon.

 

That is what I think. But in the end, Ishi stay the same pessimist and nihilist guy, fed up of living again and again, fighting against something that, in the end, will win because he can't lose. So mathematically, the DO will win because he has an infinite of try to do it. So Ishamael lost hope and decided to join the DO not because he agreed with him, but because there wasn't any other choice. I don't think they share the same contempt against humanity, life, the universe (and the rest? What if Rand's third answer was 42??)

[BrandonXRoss]

(edit: Edited because I posted in the default font and I don't like fonts that aren't Courier New )

AH! Serif Fonts...On screen...hurts my eyes, can't read....

 

_{Silence Sans Serif Infidel!}

But wait, doesn't the Post Editor use a Serif Font?

 

[Byzantine279]

I agree with that last part entirely Demiandre, but if you read his conversation with Rand in TAR as Moridin it is clear that something about him has changed, that was one time were he was not playing a role, he was talking as who he really is. The trick, then, is to show him that his view of the universe is wrong and that hope lives. Show him that beyond any doubt and he will turn against the DO. He only turned to the shadow because he felt that it should just end already. If he sees another way to end it he will take that path just as easily-more so if Rand truly has rubbed off on him.

[Vermillion]

The shift in personality comes from a shift of purpose and target. He was posing as the DO to frighten Rand and/or turn him to the Dark side. Then he had to use him carefully according to the DO's plans. After his death in tDR, he could act in the background, laying plans that worked more or less in the DO's favor. He couldn't act as he had before, appearing in dreams and all.

 

The DO needed Rand alive, so Moridin savec Rand's life in Shadar Logoth. The DO was afraid Rand could remove the Taint, and needed the seals. So he stopped the standing order of not hurting Rand, and asked for all of Rand's belongings.

 

A different tool for a different purpose. A different aim, a different weapon.

 

That is what I think. But in the end, Ishi stay the same pessimist and nihilist guy, fed up of living again and again, fighting against something that, in the end, will win because he can't lose. So mathematically, the DO will win because he has an infinite of try to do it. So Ishamael lost hope and decided to join the DO not because he agreed with him, but because there wasn't any other choice. I don't think they share the same contempt against humanity, life, the universe (and the rest? What if Rand's third answer was 42??)

 

No, I am almost certain True Power usage has a lot to do with it. Through the reread(audio listen) I find Balzy to be the best villain in the series. As far as theatrics and special effects he's the best. He best Darkwing Duck in making an introductory appearance. The whole floating in darkness bit was actually pretty cool. The Stone of Tear scene is one of the better in the series really.

 

Moridin is dutiful and cold but he doesn't have the insanity that Balzy uses even towards other Forsaken.

 

From what RJ or Brandon said that to be showing those sign of TP use you are near death unless given a boon of immortality. That says to me that his body was thrashed by TP usage and he was insane. His new body allowed him to think clearly again.

 

I always wondered how Elan felt about being rezzed after dying. It seems to go against who he is. Maybe that's why he is more dutiful than.