Seanchan Prophecy

[BFG]

I haven't really had chance to think through the theory properly, having thought of it the first time as I was reading through this board.

 

As to the prophecy, I think I'd be more worried if it wasn't for the fact that Tuon married Mat, to me this binds the 9 moons to Rand, and as such fulfills that part of the prophecy. Ironically Tuon seems to think the same in reverse. (Another new idea to me, probably not to the board tho is that...) it could also be seen that the false (if it is false) prophecy has saved the world - if Tuon had sworn to Dark Rand, then Randland really would be in trouble, they at least acted as a check to some of his plans while acting in opposition, and my understanding was that it was the prophecy that she believed that helped give her the strength to resist. (sorry, as a sentance it doesn't make much sense).

 

This, I agree with. I also think Tuon's will to fight Rand's Ta'veren effects stemmed from her version of the prophecy. Also, I do not think one prophecy will be fulfilled and the other will be deemed false. Instead, since both Rand and Fortuona seem to believe they are correct, a compromise will occur that satisfies both prophecies. Something like Rand kneeling to Mat, but I hope it's not that simple.

 

Avi's future shows stuff gets pretty disastrous if Rand bows, (presumably instead of kneeling) so I really hope that's not what they come up with. The best I can do, is that they both kneel to each other (hence equals), but even then I struggle because I don't see why the Seanchan should be seen as more important that say, Andor, in the same way that I don't think Tear should be considered more important than Mayene (sp?) just because they have more power (admittedly a lot more power), but then that's why I'm not a politician.

[TyphoonBlade]

I haven't really had chance to think through the theory properly, having thought of it the first time as I was reading through this board.

 

As to the prophecy, I think I'd be more worried if it wasn't for the fact that Tuon married Mat, to me this binds the 9 moons to Rand, and as such fulfills that part of the prophecy. Ironically Tuon seems to think the same in reverse. (Another new idea to me, probably not to the board tho is that...) it could also be seen that the false (if it is false) prophecy has saved the world - if Tuon had sworn to Dark Rand, then Randland really would be in trouble, they at least acted as a check to some of his plans while acting in opposition, and my understanding was that it was the prophecy that she believed that helped give her the strength to resist. (sorry, as a sentance it doesn't make much sense).

 

This, I agree with. I also think Tuon's will to fight Rand's Ta'veren effects stemmed from her version of the prophecy. Also, I do not think one prophecy will be fulfilled and the other will be deemed false. Instead, since both Rand and Fortuona seem to believe they are correct, a compromise will occur that satisfies both prophecies. Something like Rand kneeling to Mat, but I hope it's not that simple.

 

Avi's future shows stuff gets pretty disastrous if Rand bows, (presumably instead of kneeling) so I really hope that's not what they come up with. The best I can do, is that they both kneel to each other (hence equals), but even then I struggle because I don't see why the Seanchan should be seen as more important that say, Andor, in the same way that I don't think Tear should be considered more important than Mayene (sp?) just because they have more power (admittedly a lot more power), but then that's why I'm not a politician.

 

The problem with Avi's future wasn't that rand bowed but that the aiel had no part in the dragons peace. I might be misunderstanding you but it's not the continent itself that the seanchan see as important as the dragon, it's the empress. The seanchan feel that the empress isn't really a person but more of a symbol, there's a Tuon pov where she more or less thinks this. So while people in andor still view the queen as a person the people of seanchan view the empress as something more.

[BFG]

The problem with Avi's future wasn't that rand bowed but that the aiel had no part in the dragons peace. I might be misunderstanding you but it's not the continent itself that the seanchan see as important as the dragon, it's the empress. The seanchan feel that the empress isn't really a person but more of a symbol, there's a Tuon pov where she more or less thinks this. So while people in andor still view the queen as a person the people of seanchan view the empress as something more.

 

My impression when I read it was that the Aiel used the fact that they weren't bound by the dragons peace to start the fight, but there was underlying resentment in part because in their opinion the Seanchan didn't view the Dragon as the Empresses equal, underlined by the fact that he knelt to her. So if they were to treat each others as equals some of that underlying resentment would go. I'd also be intrigued as to whether the collared WO are just from the Shaido or if they're from the other groups as well.

 

I agree that it's the Empress that they see above the Dragon, I still think this is a massive problem, not necesarily because of Rand, but because of the other countries. Politically speaking the Seanchan plot is one of the most interesting I've read and the next meeting between Fortuona and Rand is one of the ones I'm looking forward to the most.

[Morridini]

I just wanted to throw something out here: Could the "kneel before the Crystal Throne" prophecy allready be fulfilled? It came up during lunchbreak at work the other day when we were discussing AmoL, and I suddenly remembered that near the end of the Gathering Storm Rand might have fulfilled this prophecy. He was walking around in the city Tuon was in (don't remmeber what city that was), contemplating killing them all (this was during his breakdown, leading to the awesome Dragonmount scene) when he fell to his knees...

 

Let me just copy-paste the prophecy:

He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don' date=' or all is lost.[/b']

 

Now, falling to his knees might be considered kneeling, and we can all be pretty sure that if he had not had he not had this breakdown of his and the epiphany at Dragonmount...then all would have been lost.

 

So that was just a thought I had, have anyone thought the same before? Or are there flaws in my reasoning?

[yoniy0]

Very interesting. I like the idea, but I'm afraid that particular line is most likely not a true prophecy.

[herid]

I just wanted to throw something out here: Could the "kneel before the Crystal Throne" prophecy allready be fulfilled? It came up during lunchbreak at work the other day when we were discussing AmoL, and I suddenly remembered that near the end of the Gathering Storm Rand might have fulfilled this prophecy. He was walking around in the city Tuon was in (don't remmeber what city that was), contemplating killing them all (this was during his breakdown, leading to the awesome Dragonmount scene) when he fell to his knees...

 

Let me just copy-paste the prophecy:

 

He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.

 

 

Now, falling to his knees might be considered kneeling, and we can all be pretty sure that if he had not had he not had this breakdown of his and the epiphany at Dragonmount...then all would have been lost.

 

So that was just a thought I had, have anyone thought the same before? Or are there flaws in my reasoning?

 Don't see how this can possibly qualify.  Falling on his knees in a random place in Ebu Dar as kneeling to the Crystal Throne? Not a chance. Avi's visions suggest that this prophecy will be fulfilled (probably not in the way as in her visions) but it hasn't happened yet.

[Suttree]

Dunno. Pretty sure that one was tampered with by Ishy. No reason for it to even happen...

[zshadez]

The kneeling bit is fake. Ishy edited the Seanchan prophecies to tell them the Dragon had to submit to the Crystal Throne or there would be disaster so that they would not submit to him instead and be an aid.

[yoniy0]

herid, he kneels because he's overwhelmed by their efficient regency of Ebou Dar. Well, that and his channelling sickness, anyway. One could make it work, if one so desired. But then again, I agree with what Sutt and zshadez said; kind of embarrassing that I didn't think of it myself. Oh, wait...

[herid]

herid, he kneels because he's overwhelmed by their efficient regency of Ebou Dar. Well, that and his channelling sickness, anyway.

 he kneels because of the channeling sickness only.  There is no way to twist this into kneeling to the crystal throne IMO. All the prophecies we've seen fulfilled thus far have been resolved in a noncontroversial manner and I'm quite sure this will continue to be the case. The above explanation does not qualify.

 

 

Edit: In fact he doesn't kneel at all. Kneeling is never mentioned in the whole scene.

 

He stared down at the access key. Then he seized saidin.

The sickness washed across him more powerfully than it ever had before. The force of it knocked him to the ground like a physical blow. He cried out, barely noticing when he hit the stones. He groaned, gripping the access key, curling around it. His insides seemed to burn, and he turned his head, rolling onto his shoulder and vomiting onto the bridge.

-tGS, ch 49

 

By this description he is clearly on the ground in a fetal position.

 

 

 

As for the kneeling bit being a plant by Ishy, perhaps it is but this idea is completely missing in the main body of the books. It's only been banded about in the interviews

 

Interview: Oct 27th, 2009

TGS Midnight Release - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

Question

We know that The Karaethon Cycle and The Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?

Brandon Sanderson

 

The Essanik Cycle is had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering...

QUESTION

In both?

BRANDON SANDERSON

People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik Cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what The Essanik Cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

 

Introducing it in the last book would be a bad plot device IMO. On the other hand, we do know that different lands and peoples (Aiel, Sea Folk)  have their own prophecies (the above quote confirms it too). So it's not at all strange that the Seanchan would have some prophecies that the randlanders don't know. We likely  saw one already (about the Wolf King). And if the Chrystal Throne prophecy is a fake why did Rand bow to Tuon in Avi's viewings? He cares nothing for the Seanchan prophecies and likely would not believe them, especially this one.  On the whole I'm pretty sure that the tampering issue will be sidestepped and this prophecy will be fulfilled, regardless of whether or not it has been tampered with. But most likely it won't be fulfilled in the same way as in Avi's visions.

[Suttree]

The idea is not missing Herid, there are enough clues for people to figure it out...

[yoniy0]

All the prophecies we've seen fulfilled thus far have been resolved in a noncontroversial manner and I'm quite sure this will continue to be the case.

Really? "Into the heart, to hold their hearts"? Did Rand leave Callandor behind to keep the Tearans loyal? No, that was just an excuse. But the prophecy still worked.

[herid]

The idea is not missing Herid, there are enough clues for people to figure it out...

 

ok, I was too hasty there. there are some inbook clues that it might be the case that were mentioned earlier in this thread. But  I think it will be difficult to work in that angle in the last book without quite a bit of extra onscreen explanation. Is Ishy simply going to tell Tuon he fixed the Seanchan prophecies? Who else  can tell her that she would believe? In either case my strong feeling is that everything will be fulfilled regardless of possible tampering.

All the prophecies we've seen fulfilled thus far have been resolved in a noncontroversial manner and I'm quite sure this will continue to be the case.

Really? "Into the heart, to hold their hearts"? Did Rand leave Callandor behind to keep the Tearans loyal? No, that was just an excuse. But the prophecy still worked.

What I mean is that the readers can generally accept the fulfillment of  every particular prophecy when it's all over even if they argue about the specifics along the way. AFAIK, we haven't had a prophecy that was fulfilled in such a way that any readers rejected post factum. There is no way I can buy this one though and I'm sure I'm not the only one with that opinion.

[yoniy0]

Well, you might argue that "into the heart" wasn't yet fulfilled, just as you could do the same for the "blind man". Me, it appears a difference in degree, nothing more. Still, I don't believe it's a true prophecy, so I guess it's all for naught.

[herid]

yes, you could argue these things and I'm not entirely sure myself that the "into the heart" one has been fulfilled but once a prophecy has been confirmed by the authors as having been fulfilled (like the "blind man" one which BS confirmed was fulfilled in tGS) you won't find many people

complaining that it has been resolved in an unacceptable way.  But even if BS says tomorrow that the kneeling prophecy has been resolved by Rand falling down while channeling in Ebu Dar, I won't find it acceptable and I'm sure many others won't either.

In the same way as I find his explanation about prophetic rumors in ToM to be complete bull, no matter what he says. But that won't happen with the prophecies like this one which I'm sure were planned out by RJ.

[Balefire to da face!]

I am glad this thread was bumped.

 

Something kind of random struck me as I was reading the menagerie sections of The Fires of Heaven, and it reminded me of this conversation.

 

This conversation over corrupted prophecy has intrigued me ever since I heard it detailed a few years back. I am of, what seems to be, the not so controversial opinion that the Essanik addition of bowing to the Crystal Throne is a corruption. For obvious reasons. We know Ishy planted the Seanchan as a hurdle for Randland to be unleashed leading up to the Last Battle.

 

Furthermore, a little detail that struck me as I read about Ceradin training sre'dit(elephants) is how that is virtually the only "real" animal the Seanchan seem to have. They have the grolhm, the scaled tiger lizard things, various flying lizards, and maybe others I am forgetting. We have seen the grolhm in the mirror universe. I am thinking that one of the details of Ishy "sealing the second doom" is that he actually stacked the deck for the Seanchan by giving them mirror universe animals as a way to make them an even more formidable opponent when the time came to return to Randland. If that is true, it makes is all the more likely he would tamper with their prophecies to make them more obstinate about the Dragon having to bow to them.

 

Since Ishy and the Seanchan are both set to play a big part in aMoL, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a bit more detail on what exactly Ishy did over there.

[Suttree]

Just top be clear the Essanik and Karaethon cycles are two different things. There is nothing in the Essanik that says Rand must bow to the crystal throne. The corrupted version is the Karaethon that Luthair brought with him. It existed in pure form before that on the Seanchan continent and is totally separate from the damane foretelling that make up the Essanik.

[Vels]

Rand also knelt before the Seanchan in TPoD when he was chanelling using Callandor against their army. Bashere knocked him down when he lost control - pretty sure he was kneeling at some stage there too. The only difference was there was no Empress in the vicinity at the time. He also lost the campaign (by his standards) and admitted defeat. In a way he was submitting to the Crystal Throne at this point.

 

On a side note, do we know the timing of the Karaethon cycle's first printing? It seems strange that the prophesies would exist on both continents since they were first Foretold after/during the breaking.

[Finnssss22]

 

On a side note, do we know the timing of the Karaethon cycle's first printing? It seems strange that the prophesies would exist on both continents since they were first Foretold after/during the breaking.

 

 

The Karaethon cycle is a collection of foretellings from before, during and after the breaking.

As far as it being found on other continents, Traveling was not "lost" until many years after the breaking and it's a good bet the KC was distributed all around the world.