The Subtleties of Cadsuane

[didymos]

Then it's not a problem with the characters but rather an issue with you and your tastes. Just because you believe Fantasy should be written in a particular style doesn't mean it should be or that things are WRONG when they go outside of the stock standard fantasy setting. I'm glad things go outside of what is considered the norm otherwise all we would have is Dragons, Elves and Dwarves Wizards for magic and only a handful of characters we would ever get to see.

 

It's not style that's the problem, it's substance.

 

But, I probably shouldn't be trying to discuss this with somebody who comes to a fantasy series looking for realism.

 

Woo-hoo! Dismissiveness for the win! Or not, 'cause that "looking for realism" characterization is completely (OK, largely) wrong. All I see is a reminder that there's not an Official Fantasy Novel ruleset, such that in Official Fantasy, certain things MUST NOT BE ALLOWED. "Looking for psychological realism" might be better, whether or not you personally think WOT succeeds in that regard. Then there's the whole thing where "realism" in current fiction doesn't actually mean "only stuff that happens in the real world, as it happens in the real world", as it once did. But, you know, whatever. And let's not even get into whether or not philosophical realism is involved, 'cause nobody wants that. Or I don't, anyway, which is close enough, because I've arbitrarily decided that everyone should be doing things the way I like them done, damn it all.

 

ETA: Oh, yeah, BTW...if WOT so regularly fails at giving you what you think fantasy should be, why do you keep reading it? I'm serious: you obviously get something out of it, but it sure doesn't sound that way.

Edited October 31, 2010 by didymos

[Mr Ares]

He nearly KILLED his dad.

Well, that's families for you.

i really hope that was meant to be funny.

Both funny and true.

 

Killing Masema wasn't hers to do.

Covertly or overtly, he needed killing. It wasn't anyones job in particular, just something someone needed to do. It was hers as much as anyones.

wasn't the plan to bring him back to rand for questioning, alive? also, i think the larger point being was that she went behind her husband's back to do so.

Perrin was initially sent out to bring back the Prophet and his army, which would add his forces to Rand's own and stop his depradations in Ghealdan. Given he was too crazy to really be controlled, and was most definitely an enemy of Perrin by this point, he really did need to be disposed of. Faile did the job. Whether it was behind her husband's back or not isn't really important. Sometimes you do need to act like that in order to get things done and protect those you love.

 

 

*Faints at Mr. Ares' arrival*

Nice to see I've still got it.

 

 

 

That's the whole point he made whiny characters, because IRL PEOPLE ARE WHINY, Aes Sedai are brought up to believe they are the bees knees, the main crew from Emonds Field are still quite young so i don't blame them being whiny and slightly incompetent, i mean lets take your average school leaver and plonk the fate of the world in their hands, lets see how they accept it. RJ made characters that are realistic, more so then most book series out there. it's because they act this way that i like them, and since when does a Hero HAVE TO roll up his sleeves and accept whats going on without issues? I cant think of too many HEROES that didn't have a whine about why they have to do what they do. IMHO it's Heroic BECAUSE they moan and groan about not really wanting to act that way, a hero is one because despite all the issues they have about what they have to do they do it anyways.

 

And Rand does strut around acting high and mighty, how many times do they aiel mention it? I mean come on, he tells EVERYONE that because he's the Dragon he can do whatever he wants. I never said that Cadsuane didn't act high and mighty, she does though she's kinda expected to she has been around for 300+ years and is Aes Sedai.

To repeat it one more time - if I wanted reality I wouldn't be reading fantasy - I'd turn on TV or read a newspaper.

 

Yes, real people are whiny. I don't come to fantasy to read about real people, I come to read about people that are a little better than those I find in the news everyday. That's why it's called FANTASY, because it is NOT REAL.

And the award for stating the bleeding obvious goes to.... If people in fantasy don't act recognisably like real people, you can lose the audience a bit. Now, you can show people who are more eccentric than the norm, people with more interesting lives, people who embody the best of what people can be, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't still be realistic people, with flaws and foibles. Of course, just because you want fantasy to be a certain thing, doesn't mean authors have to agree. Nor other readers.

 

I never said they shouldn't have issues with what's on their plates. What I'm trying to convey is that they shouldn't have nothing but issues with what's on their plates. Go ahead, have a fit. Get drunk. Curse. Have a good cry. Whatever it takes. Then, leave the pity party, sober up, and get on with it and DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

They are doing what has to be done.

 

Cadsuane's strength is her experience with understanding the relationships between people. She's annoying because she's usually right. She's abrasive because she knows she's usually right.

The same is true of me as well.

 

could it be so easy as to those who dislike cadsuane are the same who like dark-rand and vice versa?

No. I liked both.

 

ETA: Oh, yeah, BTW...if WOT so regularly fails at giving you what you think fantasy should be, why do you keep reading it? I'm serious: you obviously get something out of it, but it sure doesn't sound that way.

It's a mystery to us all.

[Bob T Dwarf]

ETA: Oh, yeah, BTW...if WOT so regularly fails at giving you what you think fantasy should be, why do you keep reading it? I'm serious: you obviously get something out of it, but it sure doesn't sound that way.

 

Why do I keep reading the series? The Eye of the World was a pretty dang good book. It promised us a fresh look at Ragnarok. That's always a story that's worth reading, so I promised myself I'd see it through.

 

Why has doing that become very hard work? Partly because Jordan has overplayed the "reluctant hero" bit, maybe the biggest fantasy cliche of all. And partly due to how he has portrayed all of the side characters. We are left, after twelve books, with very few characters to root for. At this point, for me, Furyk Karede is just about the only one who hasn't been a disappointment. The other characters read like a Who's Who of negative traits. Jordan has belabored everyone's shortcomings to the point that all of the characters have become tiresome. Even the heroes. Having faults, being human is fine. Being unremittingly selfish and stupid and childish isn't ( unless you're a Bad Guy, they're supposed to be hatefully selfish ).

 

Maybe somebody coming into the series today wouldn't have the same problem with it that I do. I've been reading it since 1991. When you wait, sometimes years for the next installment, and it's just more of the same - especially that multi-book Perrin/Faile disaster - it leaves a really bad taste.

 

I'm not the only one for whom that's true. Just the one posting about it in this thread.

 

To bring this back to Cadsuane - from where I sit, she should be played by Margaret Hamilton. Just a total mis-characterization of what she was billed to be.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Bob T Dwarf

[dwn]

Maybe somebody coming into the series today wouldn't have the same problem with it that I do. I've been reading it since 1991. When you wait, sometimes years for the next installment, and it's just more of the same - especially that multi-book Perrin/Faile disaster - it leaves a really bad taste.

 

I've been reading them nearly as long and I actually prefer the later books to the early ones. When I read them now, the first three books, despite good writing and characters, are structured much like most pulp fantasy. I think one of RJ's great decisions was to abandon that format and allow the plot to twist and turn more naturally. True, it has been frustrating to have to wait for years on some plot arcs, but it has greatly improved the final result.

 

The one thing that really bothered me about Cadsuane was her introduction. Here we have a legendary Aes Sedai, one that strikes awe and fear in all others, one who will become a major secondary character--and we've never heard of her before. That out-of-the-blue appearance made her feel more like a replacement Moiraine instead of a properly realized character, and it took a few books for me to overcome that feeling. RJ was great at planting little foreshadowing tidbits but he really dropped the ball in this instance.

 

(I would greatly appreciate it if anyone knows of some early references to Cadsuane that I missed.)

 

To bring this back to Cadsuane - from where I sit, she should be played by Margaret Hamilton. Just a total mis-characterization of what she was billed to be.

 

No no no. Katharine Hepburn.

 

-- dwn

[yoniy0]

First, on topic, I think I've commented in a similar thread, perhaps this very one from before the move. I do like Cadsuane. Her heart is in the right place, and she IS badass when she wants to. Of course, she did behave inexcusably in TGS (for me it's less what she did to Tam - I mean, get over it. So an AS manipulated you, what else is new? - and more the way she reacted upon learning that the Dominion Band was taken from her rooms. Why wouldn't you do the adult thing and admit fault, ah, Cads?)

 

Now to some comments:

I fault [Faile] for her failure to talk to her husband, her insistence that he read her mind and her mood and respond the way she wants him to this time which won't necessarily be the same as how she wanted him to respond last time.

Is it just that I've had uncommonly bad luck, or did you just describe EVERY woman?

 

He nearly KILLED his dad.

Well, that's families for you.

At least my luck hasn't been THAT bad. I guess that's something

 

I loved the darkened Rand, now that he has been turned back into the girl he once was I despise him even more than pacifist Perrin.

Never thought I'd meet a WoT fan who hates RAND. Really? Wow, that's... something. Wow. So, what made you pick TGH off the shelf?

 

ETA: Oh, yeah, BTW...if WOT so regularly fails at giving you what you think fantasy should be, why do you keep reading it? I'm serious: you obviously get something out of it, but it sure doesn't sound that way.

Why do I keep reading the series? The Eye of the World was a pretty dang good book. It promised us a fresh look at Ragnarok. That's always a story that's worth reading, so I promised myself I'd see it through.

 

Why has doing that become very hard work? Partly because Jordan has overplayed the "reluctant hero" bit, maybe the biggest fantasy cliche of all. And partly due to how he has portrayed all of the side characters. We are left, after twelve books, with very few characters to root for.

[...]

Maybe somebody coming into the series today wouldn't have the same problem with it that I do. I've been reading it since 1991. When you wait, sometimes years for the next installment, and it's just more of the same - especially that multi-book Perrin/Faile disaster - it leaves a really bad taste.

Well, you have a right to your opinion, of course, but you do know that not everybody thinks that, right? I haven't been reading the series as long as you have - I only started around '95 - but I began reading translated books, so I've had to wait for TDR after I've read TGH. I still love Rand, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Min, Elayne, Loial, Aviendha and many others. I enjoy reading their PoV's BECAUSE they feel like real people to me (Egwene, for example, I never used to enjoy. It's a relatively new thing for me, since '05. That's because she became more to my liking, whether because she's changed or because I have, I don't know - or much care). Perrin I've never connected with much, but that doesn't mean I don't feel for him. What he's been through is moving, and I think he's the one I could most identify with (what does it say about me, that he's the one I like the least? Nothing good, probably), if I could just connect.

[aunt_pol]

Luckers' original post touched on all of this. Cadsuane's strength is her experience with understanding the relationships between people. She's annoying because she's usually right. She's abrasive because she knows she's usually right.

 

See, here is where you lost me.

Any amount of situations had arisen to show Cads how suspicious Rand had become, a good many of them well before her exile.

 

So early in the game, after the Fling in the Fog, Min warns her of how he might not be particularly pleased to wake up to AS faces.

 

And as Yoniy0 says, would it have killed her to at least apologise for not securing the collar better, with Semi in the house? I know it may be true that no defences available to her would've been adequate, but dammit she could have just apologised. The fact is, not two days after realising her similarities to Semi - which would, you might think, encourage some deeper self-examination - she carries on regardless, no dent in her confidence visible at all.

 

Rand was so mad at her, that in spite of Min's viewings, he exiled her. It is clear that drastic measures were needed, but certainly some of the risk could have been lessened by removal of Cadsuane's fingerprints from the plan.

 

If she understands people's relationships so well, HOW does she not grasp the magnitude of the chasm in her relationship with Rand? Did she actually think DarkRand would be totally fine with Tam coming at her behest?

 

I do, for what it's worth, spare a tiny bit of blame for Min and Nyn there - it seems like they got the detail of the plan the night of the Great Balefire- they seemed to be a bit more clued in.

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

Why has doing that become very hard work? Partly because Jordan has overplayed the "reluctant hero" bit, maybe the biggest fantasy cliche of all. And partly due to how he has portrayed all of the side characters. We are left, after twelve books, with very few characters to root for. At this point, for me, Furyk Karede is just about the only one who hasn't been a disappointment. The other characters read like a Who's Who of negative traits. Jordan has belabored everyone's shortcomings to the point that all of the characters have become tiresome. Even the heroes. Having faults, being human is fine. Being unremittingly selfish and stupid and childish isn't ( unless you're a Bad Guy, they're supposed to be hatefully selfish ).

 

I agree with you to a small degree about overstating the negatives and and ignorant behavior of characters. Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, and Nyn(though mostly trivial) can have annoying moments.

 

However, you are overexaggerating in this regard. Logain, Loiol, Dobraine, and Dyelin at the very least are examples of characters making selfless decisions for the good of everyone.

 

I really do agree with you about some things....but I still think you are dead wrong about Cads.

 

 

And as Yoniy0 says, would it have killed her to at least apologise for not securing the collar better, with Semi in the house? I know it may be true that no defences available to her would've been adequate, but dammit she could have just apologised. The fact is, not two days after realising her similarities to Semi - which would, you might think, encourage some deeper self-examination - she carries on regardless, no dent in her confidence visible at all.

 

Yes, it would have killed her to do that.

 

Rand wanted to kill Cadsuane at that moment. Whether it was the True Power clouding his mind, his pent up frustration at Cads, or his disgust with himself and general deadening due to what he had almost done to Min...he wanted an excuse to kill Cads. Her apologizing probably would have given him an excuse in that moment.

 

I don't get what you mean about similarities. Why should she alter her behavior? If you mean she should have seen that Semi could escape and devine where Cads had hidden an object that I don't beleive Semi should have even known she had....I don't think you can blame that on Cads. It seems like the only faults you guys can find with her is that she's not quite smart enough to anticipate every single action/reaction possible in the universe!

 

Oh, and if you mean that Cads should have changed her image because it was similiar to Semi's? Not at all. Everyone from teachers to the president to dictators use certain images of authority to lead. That doesn't mean just because one does something horrible with that ability another shouldn't use it for positive things.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Baletickle_to_da_face!

[aunt_pol]

Why has doing that become very hard work? Partly because Jordan has overplayed the "reluctant hero" bit, maybe the biggest fantasy cliche of all. And partly due to how he has portrayed all of the side characters. We are left, after twelve books, with very few characters to root for. At this point, for me, Furyk Karede is just about the only one who hasn't been a disappointment. The other characters read like a Who's Who of negative traits. Jordan has belabored everyone's shortcomings to the point that all of the characters have become tiresome. Even the heroes. Having faults, being human is fine. Being unremittingly selfish and stupid and childish isn't ( unless you're a Bad Guy, they're supposed to be hatefully selfish ).

 

I agree with you to a small degree about overstating the negatives and and ignorant behavior of characters. Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, and Nyn(though mostly trivial) can have annoying moments.

 

However, you are overexaggerating in this regard. Logain, Loiol, Dobraine, and Dyelin at the very least are examples of characters making selfless decisions for the good of everyone.

 

I really do agree with you about some things....but I still think you are dead wrong about Cads.

 

 

And as Yoniy0 says, would it have killed her to at least apologise for not securing the collar better, with Semi in the house? I know it may be true that no defences available to her would've been adequate, but dammit she could have just apologised. The fact is, not two days after realising her similarities to Semi - which would, you might think, encourage some deeper self-examination - she carries on regardless, no dent in her confidence visible at all.

 

Yes, it would have killed her to do that.

 

Rand wanted to kill Cadsuane at that moment. Whether it was the True Power clouding his mind, his pent up frustration at Cads, or his disgust with himself and general deadening due to what he had almost done to Min...he wanted an excuse to kill Cads. Her apologizing probably would have given him an excuse in that moment.

 

I don't get what you mean about similarities. Why should she alter her behavior? If you mean she should have seen that Semi could escape and devine where Cads had hidden an object that I don't beleive Semi should have even known she had....I don't think you can blame that on Cads. It seems like the only faults you guys can find with her is that she's not quite smart enough to anticipate every single action/reaction possible in the universe!

 

Oh, and if you mean that Cads should have changed her image because it was similiar to Semi's? Not at all. Everyone from teachers to the president to dictators use certain images of authority to lead. That doesn't mean just because one does something horrible with that ability another shouldn't use it for positive things.

 

 

I'm confused. How would her apologising have given Rand an excuse to kill Cadsuane?? Surely someone admitting they've erred is more likely to mitigate against the offence than add to it??

 

As I said, it is entirely possible that Caddy's box provided the best available line of defence against shadowspawn/forsaken/dfs/whatnot: my point is that Caddy and co know next to nothing about how the Forsaken and their minions work. They know the BA exists, and Darkfriends here and there: they know other Forsaken wander the land. Under those circumstances, is it really asking too much for one of them to think, "Hey, we've caught a Forsaken here, what if someone comes to rescue her? Our biggest VIP is living under the same roof, and there's also a very rare item of Power that can be used to control him - maybe we should beef up the defences..."

 

As regards Semi herself, when Caddy is thinking about how Semi might be broken, she ponders how her own reputation and image is quite important to her, and to be humiliated would probably be the hardest punishment to bear. Now my point is, if you find sigificant similarities between your own character and that of a 3000 yr old sadist whose name is used to frighten children, is that not enough to set off alarm bells??!

[dwn]

I'm confused. How would her apologising have given Rand an excuse to kill Cadsuane?? Surely someone admitting they've erred is more likely to mitigate against the offence than add to it??

 

From her point of view Rand was practically in the midst of a psychotic break. Saying anything could set him off. Giving an insincere apology--which any apology would be, since she did everything she could to safeguard the ter'angreal--might easily tip him into 'kill everyone' mode.

 

As regards Semi herself, when Caddy is thinking about how Semi might be broken, she ponders how her own reputation and image is quite important to her, and to be humiliated would probably be the hardest punishment to bear. Now my point is, if you find sigificant similarities between your own character and that of a 3000 yr old sadist whose name is used to frighten children, is that not enough to set off alarm bells??!

 

I think you're taking the comparison a bit too far. Sure, Cadsuane, like Semirhage, used her self assuredness to gain an edge on others, but their personalities hardly had much in common.

 

--dwn

[Baletickle_to_da_face!]

dwn covered it pretty well.

 

It's funny, I remember when The Gathering Storm first came out, people cited that scene a lot as an example of Brandon "not getting Cadsuane right" but I think it was definitely a case of some people and thier tendency to allow thier attachment to Rand as the main character cloud thier idea of just what he is capable of.

 

He was high and half mad on the True Power....the reason that Cads was near speechless and said "yes" when Rand asked her if she beleived she would die if Rand willed it was because Rand believed it, and Cads beleived it, and it very well might have been true. But most importantly of all, Cads beleived it because at that moment, Rand wanted a reason to kill her. Why would an apology have been a bad idea? Well, just look at Tam! It's not like Rand had a particularly good reason to near balefire his own father either. If Cads had tried to apologize, in as much as Rand would have needed even a half coherent excuse to kill her, he would have seen it as her trying another angle to wiggle her way into his good graces.

[didymos]

might easily tip him into 'kill everyone' mode.

 

Which is basically what happened anyway.

[didymos]

If Cads had tried to apologize, in as much as Rand would have needed even a half coherent excuse to kill her, he would have seen it as her trying another angle to wiggle her way into his good graces.

 

Why would he have even needed any additional excuse, and one personally provided by Cadsuane from her own lips no less? What, he couldn't have just arbitrarily decided on his own that it was her fault and deserved to die? Given that he eventually decided that the EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD AND ALL OF EXISTENCE should probably just be gotten rid of, without any assistance in the form of supposedly destabilizing apologies, I'm not buying this "An apology would have been the WORST MOVE EVAR! Why, that would crrrraaaaazzzzy!" argument.

Edited November 1, 2010 by didymos

[dwn]

Why would he have even needed any additional excuse, and one personally provided by Cadsuane from her own lips no less? What, he couldn't have just arbitrarily decided on his own that it was her fault and deserved to die? Given that he eventually decided that the EVERYONE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD AND ALL OF EXISTENCE should probably just be gotten rid of, without any assistance in the form of supposedly destabilizing apologies, I'm not buying this "An apology would have been the WORST MOVE EVAR! Why, that would crrrraaaaazzzzy!" argument.

 

Rand has frequently shown paranoia over Aes Sedai manipulation. Any kind of apology or similar attempt to mollify him would have fed into that paranoia. Then boom.

 

I don't think Rand would have arbitrarily decided to kill her, though. I get the sense that he wanted some kind of justification, however weak or tangental, for taking that step. Kind of like taking a perverse satisfaction in an anticipated betrayal. He's like the guy in a movie holding a gun, screaming "just give me a reason!".

 

-- dwn

[anotherfingolfin]

nah, rand blamed her as much as he could anyway. i am fairly certain that he would not have killed her HAD she apologised. that is just blind bias speaking. sure, there was probably nothing better anybody else could have done. yet the result is what counts, and when your best is not good enough, the least you can do is be a little remorseful. it is decent. if you make the argument that its ok for Cads not to have basic decency, then we are on very different pages here, and can just agree to disagree. i think her response was something along the lines of 'what, boy, do you expect me to apologise?'or something similar. that line really is what made me completely overlook the fact that possibly nobody could have done better and hope that she got what was coming to her.

[yoniy0]

You misunderstood me. There's a difference between apologizing (which is something you do with people you care about whose feelings you've hurt) and taking responsibility for your faults (which is something you do with coworkers and superiors). THAT's the adult thing, every child can say that he's sorry (though most don't, and I agree it also takes a measure of maturity to apologize). You admit fault, and you make corrections so that you will never make this particular mistake again.

 

And, like didymos, I simply don't buy into this "he just needed an excuse" theory. He already had his excuse. He waited to see how she'll react, and upon hearing her "I suppose you'd like an apology now" weakly @#$@ed response, decided to do his worst. He wasn't yet at the point of killing innocents, I think.

[anotherfingolfin]

You misunderstood me. There's a difference between apologizing (which is something you do with people you care about whose feelings you've hurt) and taking responsibility for your faults (which is something you do with coworkers and superiors). THAT's the adult thing, every child can say that he's sorry (though most don't, and I agree it also takes a measure of maturity to apologize). You admit fault, and you make corrections so that you will never make this particular mistake again.

 

And, like didymos, I simply don't buy into this "he just needed an excuse" theory. He already had his excuse. He waited to see how she'll react, and upon hearing her "I suppose you'd like an apology now" weakly @#$@ed response, decided to do his worst. He wasn't yet at the point of killing innocents, I think.

 

fair enough, though she really didn't do either, did she? the way it comes off, she was just making excuses (however valid they may be).

though luckily, for whatever reason, the access key wasn't taken, it could as easily have been. anything that Cads took away from Rand (for example Callandor? correct me if i am wrong) is easily at risk. this gives Rand some sort of higher ground to stand on, just fueling his anger. i hope that made sense.

[yoniy0]

fair enough, though she really didn't do either, did she? the way it comes off, she was just making excuses (however valid they may be).

No she didn't, and for that I condemn her. I mostly do like her character, though.

[FarShainMael]

luckily, for whatever reason, the access key wasn't taken, it could as easily have been.

 

No, it wasn't, was it? I wonder why not?

[yoniy0]

No, it wasn't, was it? I wonder why not?

VoG anyone? Rand with the CK is worse off than he is without it.

[Guest]

not to mention that cadsuane has already learned from that wilder in the black hills that "what should be endured, can be endured" (right?)

she would achieve nothing from begging forgiveness, what wrong did she do anyways? Its not like this group knew of DFs in their party anyhow.

 

even after getting exiled, she doesnt give up, which is even more enduring, you might say she even experiences what semirhage experiences. she is a living legend, that every aes sedai worships, yet she is exiled in public by this upstart emo sheepherder which could put a dent in even the strongest ego.

 

yet, Cadsuane endures, and at least to me, continues to earn respect.

[yoniy0]

she would achieve nothing from begging forgiveness, what wrong did she do anyways? Its not like this group knew of DFs in their party anyhow.

Not this again. It's not about begging forgiveness. It's not about forgiving her at all. It's about verifying that she's aware a mistake has been made, that her defenses were breached by the enemy, and that she's acting to remedy the situation. Her way of deflecting guilt is the mark of an untrustworthy individual.

I'll repeat that I don't think this act alone tarnishes her entire character, but it is a definite weakness, this inability to assume responsibility for mistakes.

And it doesn't matter that Semirhage possessed knowledge they could not know. Were they not aware of this fact beforehand? A defense mechanism should have been in place to counter that risk. Even if there was no reasonable way in which this eventuality could have been averted, investigation an assessment are still in order. Hospitals don't hold M&M conferences to point fingers. They do it to learn from past mistakes. The same holds here.

[Guest]

she would achieve nothing from begging forgiveness, what wrong did she do anyways? Its not like this group knew of DFs in their party anyhow.

Not this again. It's not about begging forgiveness. It's not about forgiving her at all. It's about verifying that she's aware a mistake has been made, that her defenses were breached by the enemy, and that she's acting to remedy the situation. Her way of deflecting guilt is the mark of an untrustworthy individual.

I'll repeat that I don't think this act alone tarnishes her entire character, but it is a definite weakness, this inability to assume responsibility for mistakes.

And it doesn't matter that Semirhage possessed knowledge they could not know. Were they not aware of this fact beforehand? A defense mechanism should have been in place to counter that risk. Even if there was no reasonable way in which this eventuality could have been averted, investigation an assessment are still in order. Hospitals don't hold M&M conferences to point fingers. They do it to learn from past mistakes. The same holds here.

 

i see your point, but i am under the impression that she admitting that her defences weren't enough. as important as this is, can you think she just put the average type of defence system, or did she do her utmost of her knowledge. i think the latter, and it was beaten. ok, so she was beaten at something, something she isn't used to. it is a defence system to blame something else when we do our best and we dont achieve perfection, its being human imo. it all comes down to personality, and honestly, cadsuane is not the "oh no, i failed! i will do better next time rand" type of person is she?

 

she is not perfect, but she is skilled at what she does, and she is true to herself. at least thats what i think

[dwn]

Not this again. It's not about begging forgiveness. It's not about forgiving her at all. It's about verifying that she's aware a mistake has been made, that her defenses were breached by the enemy, and that she's acting to remedy the situation. Her way of deflecting guilt is the mark of an untrustworthy individual.

I'll repeat that I don't think this act alone tarnishes her entire character, but it is a definite weakness, this inability to assume responsibility for mistakes.

And it doesn't matter that Semirhage possessed knowledge they could not know. Were they not aware of this fact beforehand? A defense mechanism should have been in place to counter that risk. Even if there was no reasonable way in which this eventuality could have been averted, investigation an assessment are still in order. Hospitals don't hold M&M conferences to point fingers. They do it to learn from past mistakes. The same holds here.

 

That scene is in the midst of a crisis, and Cadsuane's terse responses are in line with that. Her reaction is to find out what happened, find out what damage has been done, and find out whether any threat remains. We sympathize with Rand because we read the previous chapter, but Cadsuane doesn't know what's going on, and Rand rebuffs any of her attempts to find out. She acknowledges that her wards were breached, but can you really expect a discussion and analysis when, from her point of view, they are under attack?

 

How had al'Thor survived? And what of the other contents of that box? Did al'Thor now have the access key, or had the statuette been taken by Semirhage? Did Cadsuane dare ask? The silence continued. "What are you waiting for?" she finally asked with all the bravado she could summon. "Do you expect an apology from me?"

 

-- The Gathering Storm, A Warp in the Air, 360

 

Cadsuane is clearly in crisis response mode, and is dumbfounded as to why Rand just stands there doing nothing. As for 'bravado', it makes perfect sense to project confidence in a situation where nobody else is willing to stand up and take charge.

 

-- dwn

[yoniy0]

That scene is in the midst of a crisis, and Cadsuane's terse responses are in line with that. [...] She acknowledges that her wards were breached, but can you really expect a discussion and analysis when, from her point of view, they are under attack?

No she does not. She simply doesn't. She doesn't contradict him because the truth is plain, but she never acknowledge it in words.

No, I wouldn't expect them to sit down and assess the situation then and there. I'd expect for her to say "I had that behind my best ward. I don't know how she got through. I will surrender the rest of the items back to you, should you want them."

They could take it from there.

 

How had al'Thor survived? And what of the other contents of that box? Did al'Thor now have the access key, or had the statuette been taken by Semirhage? Did Cadsuane dare ask? The silence continued. "What are you waiting for?" she finally asked with all the bravado she could summon. "Do you expect an apology from me?"

 

-- The Gathering Storm, A Warp in the Air, 360

Cadsuane is clearly in crisis response mode, and is dumbfounded as to why Rand just stands there doing nothing. As for 'bravado', it makes perfect sense to project confidence in a situation where nobody else is willing to stand up and take charge.

Crisis is exactly when leaders should take responsibility. The buck stops here kind of thing. Her response isn't bravado, it's deflecting. Unworthy of her, and of the situation.

[pghrob]

Bob T Dwarf

To bring this back to Cadsuane - from where I sit, she should be played by Margaret Hamilton. Just a total mis-characterization of what she was billed to be.

 

dwn

No no no. Katharine Hepburn.

 

-- dwn

 

Definitely not Maggie Hamilton (she was more like Semi) at all!!! I'll go with Kate Hepburn... opinionated, bossy and a fairly unlikeable character, but a great deal of fun to watch.