The Big Unnoticed Thing

[haloun]

I just had a thought, when did the whole the dragons blood on shayol ghul prophecy come into play, i believe it was in this range, and simply because rands blood is on the rocks of shayol ghul does not even mean that he has to be there, he has "lain" with three different women now, elayne is pregnant and i believe that she is close to being done with that, what if the twins end up being there at shayol ghul? that fulfils the fortelling involving the royal line of andor being essential to the last battle, the interesting thing is that the same foretelling sent lord luc to the blight and rands mom to the waste, so another thing it could be is that luc and isam turn? maybe, maybe not, but i think the biggest unnoticed unseen unmentioned thing concerning the main plotline is that avi knows she will have rands children, elayne has rands children and someones blood does not just mean that they will bleed.

[Luckers]

Can someone tell me what happened in Mistborn? Never read that.

 

Check out the second page of the Big Unnoticed Thing compilation thread. I did a write up on the Mistborn unnoticed thing.

[Dastion]

I definitely do not agree with the logic that the BUT is the Eyes in TAR. My vote is for the breaking of the seals actually being something that the forces of the light need to do themselves and something the dark one wants to prevent. But it could also be the mysterious Ter'Angreal that Elayne and Nynaeve nearly found... though that one hardly counts as something that has been 'going on'.

 

I am certain I wrote this more eloquently in the original thread by Luckers, but I will reiterate why I do not believe that the Eyes are the BUT. First off, I think that the eyes are something too abstract from the story. If the eyes are some evil force then..okay, stop going to TAR..problem solved. But, somehow I just don't think that the heroes bound to the wheel would be placed somewhere where the BUT turns out to be evil eyes starring at people in the world of dreams.

 

Then the question arises of knowledge. Should someone have knowledge that the eyes are something other than they seem? If there was some sort of danger or hazard to the eyes in TAR, I'm certain that at the very least Birgitte would be aware of it..having not only lived many hundreds of lives but having lived in TAR during the intervals between. And if she did not know, then why not the Forsaken? They don't seem to mind entering the world of dreams, so therefore see no hazard. And apparently in the Age of Legends they had Ter'Angreal specifically for the purposes of training beginners into entering the world. And that still leaves the Wise Ones. It seems all too likely that there are always a few that can both channel and walk the world of dreams, and since they are not bound to the Oath Rod this means they are long lived. Since the Wise Ones serve as part of the people rather than separate (like Aes Sedai) this gives the Aiel Wise Ones a much less disjointed knowledge of their pasts than most peoples and as far as the Wise Ones have said, the Eyes are a normal part of the World of Dreams. I would think if they had suddenly appeared or had some negative connotation that it would be known, at the very least the sense of 'they are dangerous' would remain, as it does for entering in the flesh.

 

Now for the major linkage of the eyes in TAR to the Eyes in Shadar Logoth. I do not believe they are the same. The Evil of Shadar Logoth is nothing to do with any evil related directly to the Dark One. The Evil of Shadar Logoth is something hinted at several times through out the series btu never directly explained. My theory is that the evil of Shadar Logoth is the evil within humanity. Think about it, which is truly more evil? A Myrrddral who rapes and murders a woman or a human who does it? The Myrrddral know nothing but evil, it's who they are..it's part of them. They are directly linked to the Dark One, part of his evil. A human being who does the same act, is someone who knows love, compassion, guilt, ect. It's someone who despite knowing these emotions and probably having had familial connections with other human beings chooses to go against them, to favor selfishness or lust. This is the evil within humanity which the Dark One uses to his advantage. He fools people like the Forsaken or Darkfriends who lust for self power and self preservation, he uses them to his own ends. Without this evil within each of us which he can take advantage of, he would be practically powerless, his prison never would have been breached in the first place. The evil of Shadar Logoth came into being because the people there used the Shadow's tactics against them. They were ruthless, but in fighting fire with fire, they destroyed themselves as they fell prey to the suspicion and selfishness they embraced. This is why the evil of Shadar Logoth is similar, yet different, to the evil of the Dark One.

 

TLDR Version

My vote: Breaking of the Seals or the Ter'Angreal Elayne and Nynaeve nearly found in the Tower with need.

Why I don't think it's the Eyes: Too easily circumventable, and too unplausable that one of the many people who are familiar with TAR and long lived don't know of it.

What I think the Evil of Shadar Logoth Is: The Evil within Humanity, the ability to turn your back on familial connections and caring for other human beings in favor of selfishness.

[Demiandre]

Quick answer :

 

Shadar Logoth evil : a mix of Suspicion and hatred.

Why the Unseen Eyes are plausible : because it is unoticed. And even those who notice dismiss it. Perrin may discover some things. And Luc/Isam too. Or othe Dreamer. But as many things we learn in WoT, what we know is not what everybody know. We have a partially omnicient PoV of the whole univers. If three person or more discover some facts about the BUT, we'll know and the revelatin requirement will be met. And thus the huge implication.

[Guest Booka]

I've wondered if the BUT might be the third of the White Tower that sat out the conflict between the Rebels and the Tower. Siuan's deposed in book four, so it starts about the right time, and the presence of non-affiliated Aes Sedai appear throughout the remainder of the books, with most of the side-taking happening in books five and six. Then, on my most recent read through, I caught Elayne musing in passing, "The Tower has divided itself roughly into thirds, one third for Egwene, one for Elaida, and one that was standing aside. If those last were in contact with one another, exchanging information--forming plans?--the implications . . ." (COT 12: A Bargin). That seems to imply, well, implications, but I don't remember this ever being discussed much around here, but might be something we should have picked up on. Especially in light of the Silver Swan, the Aes Sedai with the Borderland army, Cadsuane, etc.

[haloun]

i actually just finished re-reading COT and there is mention in there very briefly that the sisters at the silver swan are following cadsuane. nothing that comes out and says it straight up, but elayne has been having them watched and the watchers have specifically noticed that cadsuanes name was used in very hush hush terms, like they didnt want people to now their affiliation. is it possible maybe that cadsuane has set herself up as a third candidate for the amyrlin seat? siuan also seems to suspect cadsuane of being black ajah, but i dont think that is true.

[Charlz Guybon]

Luckers,

 

I think you should add Resurrection through T'A'R.

Nyaneve witnessed it in one of those books.

 

You could say Brigette has been around in almost every book since. - Ongoing principle

It has HUGE future implications, and will definitely be an Ah Hah! moment.

I don't remember anyone talking about it earlier.

It's something we should have been talking about when we read it.

 

I think it fits all the criteria.

 

It's also a good way for Nyaneve to "heal someone 3 days dead."

I agree, this is a very good candidate.

[Val Mickey]

My BUT is Traveling

A somewhat loony theory

 

 

The Bore was drilled by Mierin and Beidomon through the Pattern, thus releasing the Dark One from his prison. The Chosen describe Shayol Ghul as a thinness in the Pattern, where one may 'stand' in the Dark One's presence. So what would be the best method to seal the Bore? Or at least strengthen the Pattern?

 

It would be to use the Pattern itself.

 

For those of us who like analogies, a hole in a piece of cloth should be patched with cloth, not SuperGlue.

 

When RJ describes weaves, it usually is in the form of 'Earth and Fire placed just so, Water and a few threads of Spirit ...'. The mechanics of weaves (!?) are explained in a very few instances, off the top of my head they are Folding Light, Cuendillar, and Traveling.

 

Men Travel by folding the Pattern, Women by making the two terminals identical pieces of the Pattern.

 

If this could be added and modified, could they... fold the Pattern, then make the two places the same, trapping the fold in between?

It would be stitching the Pattern. Or suturing it.

 

So if Rand and friends manage to tie the North to the West, and the South to the East, and then the both together, the Bore could be covered with a patch 2-4 layers thick. (And the seals need to be broken, so that there's nothing in the way when you sew it up.) Maybe the wheel can then seal off the Dark One with enough time.

 

Traveling was introduced in Books 5 and 6, and has been an ongoing principle since then. It would be in tune with BS's Mistborn trilogy (which I've not read) thingy, where a stone that everyone ignored becomes the capstone. I could even say that Peter Ahlstrom (not sure) easily ruled out the discussions because posts on Traveling are generally on why it's different from Skimming. I haven't checked Theoryland yet, but I guess there's no such wacky theory there.

 

Okay, so my BUT is Traveling!

[OptimusPrime]

Val Mickey, I have never read that before, I think its an awesome theory. One of my theories of how Rand sacrifices himself is that he will let the Dark One possess him after he breaks the seals, and then Callandor is used to stab Rand and the Dark One together and deliver the new sealing weave to the Dark One with no Taint. I dont know if thats even possible to be honest, but I think what you descrive could very well be the weave Callandor was built to deliver on the Dark One, the combined saidin-saidar Travelling weave, which will seal the Bore anew and sever the Dark One from the bit that was trying to possess Rand.

[Charlz Guybon]

Val, I'd wondered if the solution would be tied to the way that women travel but I never thought of it like that before. Just brilliant.

[Sharaman]

Aiel Darkfriends. We get the first hints in Book IV (the trolloc attack on the Stone and a Fade addressing Mat as Hornsounder) and it's still ongoing but not discussed until after Brandon raised the hint.

[Morsker]

Its probably well known enough by now that I think its that Ishamael returned in Taims body, but what the hell.

Is there another thread on this? I don't think it's as good a candidate for the BUT as the Unseen Eyes, because it just doesn't feel like "starts in 4-6, then goes to the background," the way the Eyes do. But it's a wonderful solution to how Ishamael could disguise himself as Taim, when being held at knifepoint would've broken the Mask of Mirrors.

[Val Mickey]

Val, I'd wondered if the solution would be tied to the way that women travel but I never thought of it like that before. Just brilliant.

 

Why, thank you sir!

 

Thanks, Drekka. I've read your theory on the old boards, and it has some merit, not to mention a certain attraction for devout Christians.

[gambril]

I think it's a possibility that it could be a'dam and circles that I've posted about in a different thread, but only give it a 50% chance. The Seanchan are seemingly aimed for a fast downward spiral before the start of the Last Battle and the BUT could have something to do with them. If not that, then maybe the Unseen Eyes. It's just that the whole idea of it is just wierd to me so I don't really like it lol.

[Demiandre]

Gambril, what about a'dam and circles? A'dam prevent channeler from entering a circle. Because the a'dam in itself create a circle between the sul'dam and the damane. Which are, I suppose, the unvolontary circle Moridin is speaking of in tPoD, when he watched Aviendha's gateway unweave.

[OptimusPrime]

Its probably well known enough by now that I think its that Ishamael returned in Taims body, but what the hell.

Is there another thread on this? I don't think it's as good a candidate for the BUT as the Unseen Eyes, because it just doesn't feel like "starts in 4-6, then goes to the background," the way the Eyes do. But it's a wonderful solution to how Ishamael could disguise himself as Taim, when being held at knifepoint would've broken the Mask of Mirrors.

 

It doesnt have its own thread no, I think if I opened a thread on it I would cross over into the realms of bludgeoning, but Ive said some stuff about it in the new Taim thread. Heres the url:

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/50930-taim/

 

Val regarding the christian comment, Im not exactly sure what you meant! I must be having a Homer Simpson moment

[gambril]

Gambril, what about a'dam and circles? A'dam prevent channeler from entering a circle. Because the a'dam in itself create a circle between the sul'dam and the damane. Which are, I suppose, the unvolontary circle Moridin is speaking of in tPoD, when he watched Aviendha's gateway unweave.

 

 

What would happen if a suldam collared a channeler who was already in a circle? Nothing, because the a'dam cannot form it's circle to give the suldam control since said person is already in a circle. It would be the same as a second suldam putting an a'dam on a damane already with an a'dam on her. The second suldams a'dam wouldn't give her control and would do nothing since it can't form a circle. You can't form or in the a'dams case, force a circle when the person you're trying to force it on is already in a circle. The other way around works though as Tuon showed in KoD when she collared Teslyn, Joline and Edesina. It worked this way because Tuon being the leash holder was the leader of the circle. Now if Teslyn, Joline and Edesina weren't morons and went in there in a circle already then those a'dams wouldn't have worked for little ol' Tuon. In the end it didn't matter I suppose since Mat was there to pull their bacon off the coals again.

[Val Mickey]

@Gambril : What if the a'dam wrenches the person out of the circle? Maybe even burn out everyone in the circle.

[Nooska]

Browsing through differet topics the following came to mind through 3rd-stage association. My books are currently still in a crate in the basement after moving last december (somehowe we have less bookspace now than before, even though we have all teh same bookcases, hmm);

 

The 100 weaves for the Aes Sedai test. If they are mentioned at the right time in the books, have "we" ever discussed the purpose for these (I can't recall if its stated plainly in the prequel [title escapes me right now] but I don't think so) - what significance do these have? certainly its not just 100 random weaves done because someone just thought they were hard ad would make a good test, they are integral to the ter'angreal, so must have some actual significance, even if no current AS have any idea what that is - time to visit the 13th depositury perhaps?

[Silver]

What if a sul'dam leashed another sul'dam while she had a damane leashed? Make a physical circle of sul'dam along with the metaphysical one.

[Demiandre]

Those weaves are complex, and seemingly useless. I think the main purpose of those weaves is to see if the person put under pressure can do them, and if they fail, it doesn't impact much on the channeler. I seem to remember Moiraine or Siuan saying in New Spring that a wrong woven weave would make a big noise and wind or light or so.

 

To go back to the a'dam, I tend to agree with Val Mickey. Something like a great pain (like when an a'dam is put on a man, worn by a male, like the game I-don't-remember-who mentioned in the books. But if the a'dam is put on the channeler in the circle, I think it will remove this person from the circle. Why would it fail? It works on an already channeling person, and a circle only provide additional strenght. The ter'angreal shall be able to break the circle.

 

The problem is that a circle is very strong and the sul'dam trying to leash one of them die too fast in tGS. So we don't have particular hints, as far as I remember

[gambril]

@Gambril : What if the a'dam wrenches the person out of the circle? Maybe even burn out everyone in the circle.

 

 

What if....maybe...Eh, what we know of circles or my understanding them is, and correct me if I'm wrong please, but you cannot be 'removed' from a circle. The only way to exit a circle is to be released by the leader of the circle. This is a rule or law of circles. And I think I answered your question in my previous post Silver. *scratches head in confusion at people* Other than that you guys don't make much sense. Go back and read through TFOH and LOC all Elayne and Nynaeve scenes when they're traveling to Salidar and Elayne's studying the a'dam in order to replicate it. One scene in particular is when the bubble of evil strikes the Salidar camp.

 

These would be the 'hints' Brandon was talking about. The rest of it is using logic.

[Val Mickey]

@Gambril : We have information from supposed experts in WoTverse, not from the omniscient author. The same AS claim a person cannot be forced into a circle, yet that is precisely what the a'dam does. The Blacks supposedly can force (I'm not sure) a person into a circle, and we don't know what would happen if a member of the ring falls dead while in the circle (sniper shot, boom). Or what would happen if you collar the leader of a circle. There just isn't enough info, and the rest is speculation. The BUT is supposed to have a huge impact, and I'm not sure how a failed collaring is going to achieve that.

 

And I have several retorts for your logic comment, but I'll play nice.

[gambril]

I'm sorry, you're right. Rendering the a'dam useless wouldn't have a big impact, what was I thinking?

[Luckers]

The people within the books do not know themselves...

 

Elayne joined much more easily, first slipping the silver bracelet into her robe's pocket. Cold sweat broke out on Nynaeve's face. What might have happened had Elayne entered the link already linked to Moghedien by the a'dam? She had no notion, which only made the question worse.

 

This, of course, implies the reverse logic. But either way I think Nynaeve's fear is wise. We shall have to wait until it's depicted, but my guess is something terrible would result.