The Davram Bashere darkfriend theory

[Hybrid]

Dreams aren't always literal. The man does not have to be physically at Rand's side nor does he have to actually hold a dagger to Rand's throat. (If you are taking the dream literally, it can't be the Gray Man because he never got his knife to Rand's throat).

 

I always interpreted the dagger-at-throat dream as Taim. Rand was pretty blind of the whole Black Tower situation until Logain brought it to his attention in KOD. And even then he basically ignored it.

[FarShainMael]

You said:

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

 

I was referring to when Rand was planning to hunt and kill Coulidin personally, blade to spear, Lan pretty called him a fool and childish because he can make a sword of fire, wrap Coulidin in air to make him immobile, or just kill him with the power. There was to much at stake for Rand to risk himself in that manner.

 

I hope Rand remembers that if he does have to face Gawyn! ;) But that's a slightly different attitude to Bashere thinking learning the sword unnecessary, and Taim thinking it a waste of time. Lan doesn't hold either view.

 

These are all valid points, and the whole situation is very ambiguous, I agree. What does it for me, though, is Min's viewing.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I think rand was always aware he had to do summit about the black tower. Wasn't there some quote from him about not doing what others think you will do. So I doubt Taim is the person and he's not really at Rands side. Bashere on the other hand is as close to Rand as people get unless they are one of his ladies.

[FarShainMael]

Re your sig, OTT: What are you on?????

;D ;D

[Owayn The Traveller]

@ FSM - Was having a super special day and was in a especially cherry mood. And The Beatles are the bestest band ever! Not that other crowd.

[FarShainMael]

@ FSM - Was having a super special day and was in a especially cherry mood. And The Beatles are the bestest band ever! Not that other crowd.

You'll get no argument from me on that! :) (The Strolling Bones? Who are they? ;) ;) )

[FarShainMael]

You said:

 

4) A shared attitude to saidin, considering weapons pointless to a channeller. See Bashere in LoC Ch1, when he throws a dagger at Rand, who stops it with saidin, and DB says 'see? you don't need to learn the sword.' See also Taim in LoC tells Rand he sent the Master of the Sword away because he thinks swords are a waste of time, and Rand orders him to bring the man back and resume training.

 

I was referring to when Rand was planning to hunt and kill Coulidin personally, blade to spear, Lan pretty called him a fool and childish because he can make a sword of fire, wrap Coulidin in air to make him immobile, or just kill him with the power. There was to much at stake for Rand to risk himself in that manner.

 

I hope Rand remembers that if he does have to face Gawyn! ;) But that's a slightly different attitude to Bashere thinking learning the sword unnecessary, and Taim thinking it a waste of time. Lan doesn't hold either view.

 

I just realised. Lan can't channel. Taim can. Bashere................??

[Owayn The Traveller]

Lol. In regards to the strollers.

 

Bashere channelling surely you jest

[FarShainMael]

Not sure. We've certainly seen no evidence of it. But...

[Owayn The Traveller]

Well now I'm convinced. Once again your superior skills in debating and discussion have won me over heart and soul.

[FarShainMael]

Oh goody! :P

 

Seriously: the only thing I've come across which even goes halfway to suggesting Bashere may be able to channel is his attitude to saidin v standard weapons. And that only occurred to me early one morning just as the sun was rising. But, if he does turn out to be a DF, I'd say there's a good chance he's also a channeller.

 

I'll see if I can dig up anything else.

[Demiandre]

He came with the dawn. Bashere is your Prince of the Morning? :)

 

Bashere chanelling? Hum could make sense. Will have to check some things... I could come with a fatal crazy theory.

[Owayn The Traveller]

What about the madness and the wasting disease? Unless he he wasn't born with the spark and just recently learned. Maybe from Taim.

[FarShainMael]

I'd go with that.

 

@Demiandre: :D He's not my type! :D

[Demiandre]

@FSM, it's the mustache I presume? :D

 

Taim has been training male chaneller. Four if them. Two went mad and one got burned out. What of the fourth. If I remember correctly, we don't hear about him. I was thinking maybe Ishamael was the trainer and Taim one of those four, and adopted Ishy's behavior as a trainer, while at the same time being angered by Rand because Taim is leading. He is following.

 

And Bashere could be another one, or just a Darkfriend who know about Taim. And either way, they wanted to enter Rand trust, and so made him doubt abut each other identity when Taim arrived in Caemlyn one month after Bashere. He fled before Bashere, but Bashere arrived later. A chaneller should have no problem stealing a horse. So why did they arrived so late one after the other? Bashere could be up to something, maybe with a Forsaken. Moridin perhaps, as he seems wanting to know a great deal about Rand.

[FarShainMael]

I've never liked moustaches.. Clean-shaven or a full set, that's what I say. Moustaches on their own clearly indicate baddies. ;)

 

Your comment about Taim training channellers is interesting, and parallels some thoughts I've been having myself. Briefly:

 

I don't think Bashere could channel before he met Taim - we've certainly seen no sign of him doing so AFAICS, and as OTT says, there's no sign of madness or that rotting disease. However, I think he wants to, because of the advantages it would give him in battle. From his comments about Muad Cheade, he seems to have considered the madness a risk worth taking. From EncWoT:

 

Rand hands the seal to Bashere and asks if madness concerns him. Bashere replies that Muad Cheade, the last Marshal-General, was mad but he never lost a battle.

 

Then he meets up with Taim, who perhaps strikes a bargain with him. 'Help me escape and I'll train you in channelling'. Maybe Taim is actually doing this, maybe not, maybe he's just stringing Bashere along, hoping to get him to take those 'distinctive' DF oaths. Possibly this has already happened, I dunno.

 

This would fit in with the ambiguity of Min's Viewing:

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram."

"If he turns against you, or dies.."

 

(And I still think that seal was a fake.)

[FarShainMael]

Bump.. for Louii's benefit

 

[Muad Cheade]

There's not that much support for Bashere being a Darkfriend. If he were, Rand would be dead by now and the Dark One would have the seal Rand gave to him.

 

The evidence for him being a channeler is even less.

[FarShainMael]

I think that particular seal is a fake. And the DO does not necessarily want Rand dead; It may wish to use him to set It free (see Dark Prophecy at the end of ToM).

[Suttree]

There's not that much support for Bashere being a Darkfriend. If he were, Rand would be dead by now and the Dark One would have the seal Rand gave to him.

 

The evidence for him being a channeler is even less.

 

Also hasn't he been around him now that he can "sense" DFs...

[Sharaman]

Yes ToM onwards the Bashere=DF theory is weakened by the fact that DB didn't turn a hair at Maradon and in Rand's constant presence which other DFs couldn't bear.

As to something dark near him --- maybe the missus is a DF? Or he's going to die horribly, which will mean the Broken Crown vision comes closer to fulfilment.

[Louise]

Bump.. for Louii's benefit:biggrin:

 

Oh EXCELLENT!!! Thank you!

Here I go, my preliminary agruments. There are still a few quotes I wish to find and post but this will do for now.

 

First and foremost....

 

I've never liked moustaches.. Clean-shaven or a full set, that's what I say. Moustaches on their own clearly indicate baddies. ;)

 

Amen!! I can just picture Bashere, stroking his moustache whilst pondering his latest evil scheme... classic bad guy pose!

 

"And there's something...dark...in the images I saw around Lord Davram."

"If he turns against you, or dies.."

 

This does it for me too, no further comments nescessary.

 

Yes ToM onwards the Bashere=DF theory is weakened by the fact that DB didn't turn a hair at Maradon and in Rand's constant presence which other DFs couldn't bear. As to something dark near him --- maybe the missus is a DF? Or he's going to die horribly, which will mean the Broken Crown vision comes closer to fulfilment.

 

Ok so I've got a theory on this; What if Bashere has been granted a gift, a form of protection, from the DO, ie; the Male Forsaken were protected from the taint. Now Bashere isn't in the same league as the Forsaken but Bashere has gotten himself into an extremely valuable position, right hand man to the DR and has gained his trust (not easy to do.) If I were the DO I'd be rewarding such cunning and initiative, perhaps with some form of protection against discovery and anti-DF talents. (eg Rand, Perrin etc can smell some tools of the shadow) Some sort ofgift from the DO could buffer him against what the DFs of Maradon felt in Rand's presence.

 

Wise One's Dream-

"Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. "

 

IMO the fact that the dagger-wielding-man is stated to be standing by Rand's side, (not behind him, by his side) implies close proximity/trust, ie: a friend is said to stand by your side.

 

The Gray Man:

It couldn't be him because....

A) it came at him from behind. (LoC-pg580: '...and seized saidin as he spun')

B) It doesn't fit the 'you did not see him' bill either. Rand smells the GM in LoC then sees it when he turns.

 

Some one else said Taim:

Again with the implied proximity/trust thing. Rand has barely been near Taim since he set him in charge of the BT. Also Taim certainly doesn't fit because Rand is wary of him, he would be expecting a knife to the throat from Taim.

 

 

Next up, Bashere and his Queen...

Why did Bashere abandon his oaths and loyalty to his Queen and his land to become Dragonsworn?

Ta'veren effect? I don't think so... What Bashere has said to Rand early on, doesn't fit with other bits of knowledge we've since aquired:

 

tGS-ch1- Rand- "How long had it been since he reported to his rightful ruler? Hadn't he promised Rand that his Queen's support would be speedy in coming? How many months ago had that been?"

 

Now; Cadsuane says...

ToM-ch51- 'Tenobia is a wildfire. Young, impertinent and reckless. Don't let her draw you into an argument.'

 

And Bashere himself has said to Rand...

ToM-ch1- 'his face might fuel Tenobia's anger.'

 

Also noteworthy...

CoT prologue- Bashere says that Tenobia wants his head for 'treason twice over' and calls it a 'neat and thorny problem.'

 

Now to me none of that describes a ruler who would be;

A) Happy that her Marshall/General has disobeyed/ committed treason,

B) Willing to throw her support to the man he betrayed her for.

 

Hardly concrete evidence but still enough to form suspicions, not to mention enough to gather that Bashere lied to Rand about Tenobia's support. Possibly in order to gain his trust quicker by promising to bring a nation to his side without bloodshed?? Why else would he have said that? He cannot have thought it possible.

 

I know there's a distinct lack of DF-Bashere evidence compared to other characters (ie: Taim) BUT thats what would make it the ultimate twist! The fandom have proven adept at picking things apart and weedling out secrets... so why not write a secret with next to no evidence to potentially give it away. It would finally be a successful ploy by an otherwise pathetic group of bad guys. He's in close, and trusted by Rand; his betrayal would be devastating... re: Min's viewing.

[Sharaman]

Lied to, or misjudged, how Tenobia would react?

There's a difference and neither a lie nor misjudgement would necessarily make him a DF.

Given the first meeting between Rad and Bashere in TFoH, it is a ta'veren effect that Bashere joins Rand. He's been waiting around Caemlyn, trying to gain audience with Rahvin/ Morgause and Rand happens along.

None of the DB=DF theories, plausible as they were, can survive unless they can reasonably explain how/ why Bashere is unaffected by Rand's close proximity in ToM when other DFs go mad/ are unable to meet Rand's eyes.

[FarShainMael]

Yes ToM onwards the Bashere=DF theory is weakened by the fact that DB didn't turn a hair at Maradon and in Rand's constant presence which other DFs couldn't bear.

 

Actually, yes he did..

 

"We need to get out of the city," Bashere said, his voice urgent. "I'm sorry, man. Maradon is lost."

 

"No," al'Thor said softly. "The Shadow will not have this city. Not after what these men did to hold it. I will not allow it."

 

"An honourable sentiment," Bashere said, "but we don't.." He trailed off as al'Thor looked at him.

 

Those eyes. So intense. They seemed almost alight. "They will not take this city, Bashere," al'Thor said, an edge of anger entering his quiet voice...

 

...Bashere looked stunned, mouth half-open. "Curse that man!" he finally said.

 

Now was this Rand's ta'verenism? We haven't seen any mention of an 'intense' gaze before.. or was it something else, that stunned Bashere into silence?

 

What if Bashere has been granted a gift, a form of protection, from the DO, ie; the Male Forsaken were protected from the taint.

 

..and did he use that to divert Rand's attention onto Torkumen, driving him mad?

[Luckers]

I kinda like the idea of Rand's shiny aura being falliable, and this tripping Rand up. Certainly there are degrees to how effective it is.

 

But yeah, I'm not a fan of the Dark Bashere theory. It's based only on the 'something dark around Bashere, if he is killed or turns against its super bad' viewing of Min's. And I reckon death.