Rand: seed of the Hammer?

[FarShainMael]

I've mused on this in the course of several threads, and I thought it was about time I tried to put my thoughts together on the subject.

 

The phrase comes from the Dark Prophecy:

 

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer(6) burns the ancient tree(7).

 

..

 

6. The Seanchan  

7. Probably a reference to the Tree of Life being the symbol of the lands near Toman Head.

 

The notes are from

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/dark.html

 

However, this is a prophecy, so it may be a series of separate statements, and the reference to Toman Head may be completely unconnected to the mention of the Hammer.

 

Furthermore, it is a Dark Prophecy, and I feel it should accordingly be treated with caution, in two respects especially.

 

 

The Hammer

For one thing, there is more than one Hammer! Luthair Paendrag Mondwin was known to the Seanchan as the Hammer; but his father, Artur Paendrag Tanreall, was known as 'Hammer of the Light' (tGH Ch7). Ishy (in his identity as Jalwin Moerad) could have been deliberately confusing things between Artur and Luthair, for his own purposes.

 

Certainly, there are problems with anyone in Randland being a direct descendant of either Hammer.

 

Concerning Luthair, none of the Seanchan in general and Luthair's line in particular has returned to Randland until very recently.

 

Concerning Artur, to the best of almost everyone's knowledge, none of Hawkwing's blood survived. The exception may be Berelain sur Paendrag of House Paeron, who claims to be descended from Hawkwing's grandson Tyrn sur Paendrag Mashera:

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Tyrn_sur_Paendrag_Mashera

 

(The name Mashera is interestingly close to Elyas Machera..

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Elyas_Machera )

 

Officially, Tyrn was proclaimed dead just before Hawkwing himself died, but this was never fully investigated. It's quite conceivable that his mother escaped with him to a place of safety.

 

 

The Ancient Tree

Also, there is more than one meaning to 'the ancient tree'. The nation of Almoth arose from the War of the Hundred Years, and its banner bore the Tree of Life:

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Almoth

 

But, Almoth as a nation ceased to exist over four hundred years before Rand's birth; its banner no longer exists. There is no 'ancient tree' on the Almoth Plain for the Seanchan to burn - not even metaphorically, not even on a banner!

 

But there is an ancient tree in Rhuidean. It was badly burned during the fight between Rand and Asmodean over possession of the Choedan Kal access key (tSR Ch58).

 

 

Asmo wasn't a descendant of Hawkwing of course. So that leaves Rand, whose biological parents were Janduin of the Iron Mountain sept of the Taardad Aiel, and Lady Tigraine of House Mantear, aka Shaiel of the Chumai sept of the Taardad Aiel.

 

 

Rand

For Rand to be the seed of the Hammer requires that one of his parents be at least a direct descendant of Hawkwing, or (because of the direct connection implied by the word 'seed') Janduin to be Hawkwing reborn. I'll have a look at each of these possibilities.

 

 

1. Janduin = Hawkwing

 

This requires that a person can be reborn more than once per age. This may already have happened to Mat, who seems to have memories (before his encounter with the Eelfinn) of being at least one of Aemon's commanders, if not Aemon himself.

 

Factors for:

1. Gitara sent Luc to the Blight, where he met and killed Janduin. (We don't know if Gitara knew this would happen.) This may have been necessary to send J back to T'A'R to rejoin the HotH.

 

2. Perrin's experiences with the 'fan of colours' which appear whenever any of the three ta'veren think about each other. In KoD Ch4, Tylee questions Berelain about her name. Berelain tells Tylee that her family is descended from Artur Paendrag. Tylee tells her that this makes her a distant cousin of the Imperial family and that, no doubt, the Empress will honor her, so long as she does not make any claims to Hawkwing's empire.

 

Then something interesting happens. A little earlier, while Perrin is waiting for Tylee to arrive, he thinks of Mat's father talking of trading techniques, and those colours swirl in Perrin's head, showing him Mat and Tuon. Now Berelain talks to Tylee about her descent from Hawkwing, and Perrin interrupts them:

 

"I didn't come here to talk about the Prophecies or Hawkwing or your Empress," Perrin said iritably. For the second time in a matter of moments those colours tried to coalesce in his head only to be dispelled. He had no time.

 

Perrin saw the colours when thinking of Mat's father, now he sees them when thinking of Hawkwing!

 

Factors against:

1. It has been pointed out that the HotH appear as their most recent incarnation, which would mean the AH-soul appearing as Janduin, not Hawkwing. Unless he recognised the LTT-soul as his son, and the Precepts did not allow him to reveal their relationship. But that gets a bit complicated.

 

2. Gitara's prophecy may have been to ensure that Rand would be orphaned and raised by 'an ancient blood not ours (Aiel's)'. This latter possibility seems to me to be a bit artificial.. but the Wheel weaves, as they say.

 

 

2. Janduin: direct descendant of Hawkwing through several generations

 

It's just possible that he was related to a descendant of Hawkwing, in the same way that Berelain claims to be descended from Tyrn. Other descendants may also have escaped as Tyrn was claimed to have done; perhaps some joined the Aiel.

 

 

3. Tigraine: direct descendant of Hawkwing through several generations

 

Tigraine was certainly a direct descendant of Ishara

 

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ishara

 

This entry contains the interesting information:

 

Ishara was the daughter of Endara Casalain and the granddaughter of King Joal Ramedar, the last King of Aldeshar before it was conquered by Artur Hawkwing during the Consolidation.

Her date of birth is not recorded, although her bearing of children circa FY 1000 suggests it was after the fall of Aldeshar to Hawkwing's forces.

 

...

 

Ishara rode to Tar Valon with two goals: to secure the loyalty of the large army besieging the city at the order of Hawkwing, and to forge a new alliance with the Aes Sedai.

 

According to records, Ishara's lover at the time was General Souran Maravaile, who was Hawkwing's commander of the siege.

 (emphasis mine)

 

I wonder if her lover was actually Hawkwing himself, and the fact was concealed for the same reason that Tyrn and his mother hid themselves! Bit of a stretch, I know, and no evidence one way or the other.

 

 

Textual hints

 

Finally, there are hints within the text about Rand's lineage. His mother was named Tigraine before she disappeared at Gitara's bidding. This is very similar indeed to Igraine, who was the mother of Arthur in British mythology:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igraine

 

Igraine was married to Uther Pendragon, Arthur's father; she had a sister named Morgause; and a daughter called Elaine.

 

Of course, in the WoTverse, Artur is the father of Luthair, a possibly deliberate inversion of the King Arthur myth. Also, Elayne is Morgase's daughter and therefore Tigraine's niece, and Morgase and Tigraine are not sisters, but they are connected through their marriages to Taringail Damodred. For the Aiel, that would make them sister-wives.

 

Rand drew the sword (Callandor) from the Stone (of Tear).

 

The name 'Tyrn' for Hawkwing's grandson is also suggestive. We know that RJ modelled Rand after Tyr, the Norse god of single combat, victory and heroic glory, who lost a hand (to the wolf Fenrir, as it happens). He is also destined to kill and be killed by the guard dog of the Underworld.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyr

 

 

And, of course, Rand now carries Hawkwing's sword, Justice, which looks 'as if it had been designed specifically' for him, and which 'felt right beneath his fingers'.

 

 

If Rand is indeed the seed of the Hammer, what is the significance?

 

Tylee was unimpressed by Berelain's claim of ancestry, merely warning her off. But a son of Artur Hawkwing himself, Justice in his hand, would be a different matter. Such a person would have little difficulty in binding the Nine Moons to serve him, I feel.

 

But is there still more to it than that?

 

Comments are invited!

 

[WolfTwins]

 

  Could You, please, continue! Very good pros and cons. But, maybe I haven't read it well, what is your final conclusion - your theory?

  I was "searching" for the third Hawkwing's descendant so it will fit the "three will be one" prophecy. Could it fit?

 

 

[Crael123]

damn.

[Spirax]

can Rand be Lews Therin AND Artur Hawking at the same time?

[DemandredFO]

FarShaimMael said Hawkwing's son, not Hawkwing.  Interesting theory and something new too

[Spirax]

FarShaimMael said Hawkwing's son, not Hawkwing.  Interesting theory and something new too

 

well could he be both either way?

[DemandredFO]

How could you be your own father and your own son, that would be fast turn around time ;D

[Spirax]

exactly.

 

he cant be LTT and Hawkings son...

[DemandredFO]

one more time, he can't be LTT and Hawkwing we are agreed but FarShainMael is talking of Hawkwing's son, see the original post.  Anyway, Rand and Hawkwing were at Falme together

[FarShainMael]

I'd really have liked Rand to be Hawkwing, but I couldn't make that one work.

 

@WolfTwins - I think that if Rand is 'son of Hawkwing' this may be the decisive factor that gets the much-needed alliance between the Westlands and the Seanchan going.

 

Also, Rand has sired two children with Elayne - but I don't think they will be born and mature in time to be significant.. unless they are born in T'A'R or something.

 

(Thanks for the nice comments people btw!)

 

[Spirax]

oh man i am so confused. i think i will have to read the original post again for about the millionth time.

[Vermillion]

Rand hasnt been reborn since LTT.  The heroes of the horn know souls by their last incarnation.  Hawkwing knows Rand as LTT.

[FarShainMael]

He addressed Rand as LTT, true, but the Precepts may have forbidden him to reveal their relationship if he was indeed Rand's father.

[Hadilmir]

That is stringing moonbeams together. It's pretty, and I do it myself plenty of times, but then again, I rarely find a theory of my own making believable. :D

 

I can't disprove anything, but here's why I don't find it believable.

1. As far as we know, there has been no cross-breeding between the Aiel and the Wetlanders since Rhea. (Excepting Tigraine)

2. Perrin thought of Mat's father. His mind latched onto Mat in the thought. Then he said 'Prophecies' which immediately brings Rand to mind, being the Dragon Reborn and whatnot.

3. We have absolutely no reason to believe Ishara loved Hawkwing and not General Souran.

4. The Two Rivers is still the land of the Red Eagle, and Manetheren is long dead. The Almoth plain can still be linked to the Ancient Tree.

5. Rand is partially based on Arthurian legends, as Arthur himself as well, explaining Tigraine and Igraine if not Tyrn and Tyr.

 

 

What you should be examining is the next few lines-

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head. The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree. Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes. Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes. Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

 

Is this ancient wrong linked to the 'wrongness worse than man can make' Amys found in Tanchico? The Seed (If it is the Seanchan and not Rand) certainly had the opportunity when they reclaimed Tanchico, but we haven't heard anything from that area, have we?

[Durinax]

1. As far as we know, there has been no cross-breeding between the Aiel and the Wetlanders since Rhea. (Excepting Tigraine)

we know that hawkwings daughter was sent across the waste, who knows if she made it across, she could have been stopped and taken prisoner then joined the breeding pool

Quote

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head. The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree. Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes. Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes. Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.

 

Is this ancient wrong linked to the 'wrongness worse than man can make' Amys found in Tanchico? The Seed (If it is the Seanchan and not Rand) certainly had the opportunity when they reclaimed Tanchico, but we haven't heard anything from that area, have we?

the only ancient wrong I can think of is Fain and the ancient evil embodied within him

[Hadilmir]

we know that hawkwings daughter was sent across the waste, who knows if she made it across, she could have been stopped and taken prisoner then joined the breeding pool

Wait, we do? Where is this and how did I miss it?  :-X

[Durinax]

It is known that Laiwynde and her young son, Tyrn sur Paendrag Mashera, were the last of Hawkwing's heirs left alive in the Westlands after the despatch of Luthair to Seanchan in FY 992 and her sister (name unknown) to Shara the following year. Laiwynde died under murky and uninvestigated circumstances just days before her father's death in FY 994.

from http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Laiwynde

 

I assume that she went overland although that is unknown, and durign the books we hear that hawkwings only real defeat was at the hands of the Aiel so there could potentially be something there

[Hadilmir]

I assume that she went overland although that is unknown, and durign the books we hear that hawkwings only real defeat was at the hands of the Aiel so there could potentially be something there

Given his defeat, I'd say it is much more likely she went by sea. You don't send your daughter through hundreds of miles of hostile enemy territory. Especially when that territory is the Waste. Besides, we know the Sea Folk can sail to Shara easily, there is no reason the unnamed daughter would have traveled overland.

[Durinax]

I assume that she went overland although that is unknown, and durign the books we hear that hawkwings only real defeat was at the hands of the Aiel so there could potentially be something there

Given his defeat, I'd say it is much more likely she went by sea. You don't send your daughter through hundreds of miles of hostile enemy territory. Especially when that territory is the Waste. Besides, we know the Sea Folk can sail to Shara easily, there is no reason the unnamed daughter would have traveled overland.

well the port cities would have had heavy garrisons to stop enemies dropping in by sea. and overland the sharans may or may not have become used to aiel and have downsized the garrisons so there may be a bit of strategic advantage to goign overland if they could manage it, plus there would be less chance of accidental discovery of the attack and warning

[Hadilmir]

well the port cities would have had heavy garrisons to stop enemies dropping in by sea. and overland the sharans may or may not have become used to aiel and have downsized the garrisons so there may be a bit of strategic advantage to goign overland if they could manage it, plus there would be less chance of accidental discovery of the attack and warning

Yes, but how does one get through the Waste with enough men for an overland route to be more effective than by sea? The Aiel wouldn't let them stroll through and you cannot avoid the Aiel in the Waste. Didn't they find Tigraine during her second day in the Waste and stalk her unseen for another 3?

[Durinax]

well the port cities would have had heavy garrisons to stop enemies dropping in by sea. and overland the sharans may or may not have become used to aiel and have downsized the garrisons so there may be a bit of strategic advantage to goign overland if they could manage it, plus there would be less chance of accidental discovery of the attack and warning

Yes, but how does one get through the Waste with enough men for an overland route to be more effective than by sea? The Aiel wouldn't let them stroll through and you cannot avoid the Aiel in the Waste. Didn't they find Tigraine during her second day in the Waste and stalk her unseen for another 3?

im not sure how that would be feasable. I guess that if they lucked out that they would be away from the holds and make it through.

[Hadilmir]

im not sure how that would be feasable. I guess that if they lucked out that they would be away from the holds and make it through.

Maybe. Like I said in my first post, it seems to be a string of moonbeams. Interesting if true, but I can't get behind it.

[Jon Paul]

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

 

I don't think this has anything to do with Rand.  The seed of the Hammer is a reference to the Seanchan and the tree motif is very big on Almoth Plain, Arad Doman and Tarabon.  Almoth was one of the nations to have a branch of the Tree of Life.  I think the dispute between Arad Doman and Tarabon is which inherited that branch.

[Hadilmir]

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

 

I don't think this has anything to do with Rand.  The seed of the Hammer is a reference to the Seanchan and the tree motif is very big on Almoth Plain, Arad Doman and Tarabon.  Almoth was one of the nations to have a branch of the Tree of Life.  I think the dispute between Arad Doman and Tarabon is which inherited that branch.

I'm pleased we finally agree on something.  :D

[Jon Paul]

I'm pleased we finally agree on something.  :D

 

Don't put up your sword yet though :D!