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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Mat should dump Tuon and get with Aludra


Lena
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You must've skipped the Faile chapters in WH and CoT, I know I thought about doing it often enough. Seriously, you're so far off that I can't even make an argument against it.

 

They did not have their free will stolen from them.  I don't think you truly appreciate just what happens to a damane.  They literally have their will taken from them.  It is not material in nature.  They are literally under the spiritual oppression of a sul'dam's will.  They cease to be human.

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The two forms of enslavement are in no way comparable.

I disagree. The Wetlanders were intended to serve for life. Given a while longer, many more than just a few of Sevanna's pets would have become nearly mindless slaves. We saw the early stages with Faile's tentmate who they had to dispose of. She was willing to rat them out, not because she might get in trouble if she didn't but because it would please Sevanna. They wanted to create their own da'vocale, the Shaido were just crushed before they were finished.

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Okay Hadilmir, let us assume for the moment that the only real difference between Shaido gai'shan and Seanchan damane is that the damanae simply suffer from a faster process than the Shaido gai'shan.

 

Does that justify Perrin's actions in any way?  Just because the Shaido have done this thing does not mean that they deserve to be put under the same cruelty that they gave out.  And let us not pretend that Perrin had any higher motive.  He did not care about the gai'shan and their suffering.  He did not care to defeat the Shaido because of the threat the Shaido posed to the world in he run-up to Tarmon Gai'don.

 

No, he done it all for Faile.  He did abandoned his duty to Rand and to the Pattern, he sold people into slavery, all for Faile.  What makes Perrin any better than the Shaido or the Seanchan?

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What makes Perrin any better than the Shaido or the Seanchan?

Perrin is what we would call a retard. He is basically a mindless zombie. His brain is Fail.

So he is not guilty of any of his actions, but we should consider locking him into a mental institution.

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Okay Hadilmir, let us assume for the moment that the only real difference between Shaido gai'shan and Seanchan damane is that the damanae simply suffer from a faster process than the Shaido gai'shan.

 

Does that justify Perrin's actions in any way?  Just because the Shaido have done this thing does not mean that they deserve to be put under the same cruelty that they gave out.  And let us not pretend that Perrin had any higher motive.  He did not care about the gai'shan and their suffering.  He did not care to defeat the Shaido because of the threat the Shaido posed to the world in he run-up to Tarmon Gai'don.

 

No, he done it all for Faile.  He did abandoned his duty to Rand and to the Pattern, he sold people into slavery, all for Faile.  What makes Perrin any better than the Shaido or the Seanchan?

What? Ohh, haha, I was never defending Perrin's actions. I was just saying that if anyone deserves to be made damane it is the Sul'dam and right behind them the Shaido Wise Ones. To you, it may be unjust, but Randland seems to follow Hammurabi's code for the most part. 100,000 mindless slaves in progress equals life as a damane. Don't forget to throw in all those killed by their orders either.

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@hadilmir: being gai'shain isn't the same as being collared. They don't have their free-will stolen from them, no more than prisoners anywhere. Being collared is far more direct and insidious. It's also permanent, unless the damane is 'rescued' and even then they often scream to be leashed again. Being gai'shain only lasts for a year and a day, and the prisoner knows it.

You must've skipped the Faile chapters in WH and CoT, I know I thought about doing it often enough. Seriously, you're so far off that I can't even make an argument against it.

 

You don't understand what collaring, or Compulsion, do to a person, to their free-will. Faile still retained her free-will during her time as a Shaido captive. Damane seldom if ever manage that. Which, BTW, is why I'm very suspicious indeed of Alivia's motivations.

 

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Perrin is what we would call a retard. He is basically a mindless zombie. His brain is Fail.

So he is not guilty of any of his actions, but we should consider locking him into a mental institution.

 

It is hardly Beren and Lúthien though!  Since Faile is not an immortal Elf maiden whom has seen the light of the Blseed Land and carries the beauty of Eru upon her face, I am going to say she isn't enough to drive Perrin to insanity and therefore Perrin is responisble for his cruel actions :p.

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I dont understand why everyone is so negative on perrin for wanting to save faile and destroy the shaido in the process.

 

After all Faile is the only person of relations he has now, his whole family is dead so he clings onto Faile like a drowning man would a branch. Personnally I think everyone hates them due to this time becauase there where a lot of perrin and faile PoV's and they blend together somewhat making it seem worse.

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To Tuon haters, this is kind of a long winded explanation for something fairly simple, but I think it needs saying.

 

Fact: For a relationship to work, both sides need to put time and effort into the relationship.

I'm sorry, but if you dream of meeting the perfect woman/man and then you will get married and he/she will be perfect and do everything for you and be exactly what you dreamed of, your dreams will never come true. Do you know why 50% of marriages result in divorces nowadays? Cause they think its love at first sight and end up realizing that their spouse isn't perfect and therefore the only solution is a divorce (in their minds).

As a side note, this is what pisses me off so much about Elaine. She hasn't spent the time with Rand to build a solid relationship. It makes me want to hit her with a stick (and I kinda want to hit Min, too, cause she only thinks about... well... that). So then comes Avhienda whom spent a few months with Rand, and although this is still a short time, they were practically with each other 24/7, making the relationship at least somewhat viable.

 

But, back on topic: Tuon. Mat and Tuon did spend some time together, and again this was a 24/7 type thing, but I will admit the marriage was a little rushed. However, I think that is exactly why Mat was so changed by being married; he is finally realizing that he has to work in the relationship and actually try, while before it was a fun night and and then a, "well, guess I'll never see you again." The fact that he realizes he is going to have to work for Tuon is what I think  will make the marriage turn out OK.

Tuon is of course very single-minded. But that is exactly how she was raised, so you can't blame her too much. She had probably been expecting Randland to still be in its perfect Hawkwing utopia. Anyway, in my mind, this single-mindedness is what gives Tuon such great potential. Tuon's world is being turned upside down, her family has been killed, and there's this one guy that seems to be able to help her through everything. In the end, I think Mat can change Tuon's single-mindedness and in that way Tuon and Mat will become that perfect match that everyone has been hoping for. I think that right now they fit each other great. Tuon has that way of... well... you know whenever she does something and you can just picture the sly grin on her face? And Mat thinks something like that woman could change the face of the world if she wanted to. Those moments show what a great match they could become.

 

Quick (hopefully) note to Faile haters: Perrin, I think, for most people, is a hard character to connect with in his entirety. He's thoughtful, very careful, and driven largely by goals. Many people can be thoughtful, but rarely do people also possess one or both of the other traits. I'm personally a careful person, but Perrin outdoes my carefulness by a long shot. So in the end, I don't think many people can truly understand what connects Perrin and Faile to eachother beyond love. In my mind, they fit, and I think that maybe RJ was trying to show us that when things don't work out how they should in our minds, they can still work out, and we have to accept that.

 

Well, thanks for reading. Have a nice day. By the way, I know I'm gonna take some heat for this post, so know that I've got my flame shield on and I've got spare batteries in my pocket.

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I dont understand why everyone is so negative on perrin for wanting to save faile and destroy the shaido in the process.

 

Because it was not about the Shaido at all.  It was all about Faile.  Perrin has duties beyond Faile.  He has a duty to the Pattern, to reality its self.  Such stakes cannot be gambled on Faile and when Faile her self doesn't even believe Perrin has this duty, she doesn't recognise him as ta'veren and I doubt she even recognises Rand as the Dragon Reborn in anything but that he claims this title.

 

If Faile would have her way, she would have Perrin playing the Great Game with Rand as if the world did not matter.  She is power-hungry and is out for nothing but her own ends.  Rand doesn't need anymore of this attitude and behaviour.  He needs people devouted to the cause of fighting Shai'tan.

 

Damning the Pattern to burn because you cannot see by the object of your obsession is simply wrong.  If Perrin was not ta'veren and integral to Rand's victory, and I do not doubt it will be incidental or passive, I would have sent him to the gallows long ago for the danger he poses.

 

Personnally I think everyone hates them due to this time becauase there where a lot of perrin and faile PoV's and they blend together somewhat making it seem worse.

 

I hate them because Faile is a bad influence on Perrin.  I loathe her characte and I do not understand what Perrin actually sees in her.  I would say his supposed love for her is completely out-of-character of everything we see from Perrin before he meets her.

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Sounds a little like he's under some sort of Compulsion, doesn't it..

 

Demandred is known to enjoy using proxies and Sammael commented that events in the south had Sammael's mark all over them.  Was Perrin in the south at that time?

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I hate them because Faile is a bad influence on Perrin.  I loathe her characte and I do not understand what Perrin actually sees in her.

agree 100%

Perrin behaves like a desperate fool who clings to the very first person who shows some interest in him.

For true love, you first have to love yourself - something which Perrin certainly does not. Therefor his "love" is just flawed, he looks to complete himself with exterior help, but this only leads to a sick dependency.

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Perrin behaves like a desperate fool who clings to the very first person who shows some interest in him.

For true love, you first have to love yourself - something which Perrin certainly does not. Therefor his "love" is just flawed, he looks to complete himself with exterior help, but this only leads to a sick dependency.

 

I don't understand how Faile became the object of Perrin's obsession though.  The loss of his family could be a possibility, but that obsession was becoming evident before he discovered the truth of his loss.

 

Before he met Faile, we find a young man who is slow of thought, as in whom considers all options and takes time to actually think, a young man who is stable in his being.  He knows what he wants but he also knows what needs to be done.  He is a man of duty and a man of honour.

 

We know he has had feelings for Egwene before, but due to the stability he has in himself, he knows he needs to let go and begins to simply love her as a sister.

 

Then comes Faile.. and that all disappears.

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Sounds a little like he's under some sort of Compulsion, doesn't it..

 

Demandred is known to enjoy using proxies and Sammael commented that events in the south had Sammael's mark all over them.  Was Perrin in the south at that time?

 

Sammael sent a pack of Darkhounds after Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, Loial and Faile who were fleeing from Illian (tDR Ch44).

 

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Sammael sent a pack of Darkhounds after Moiraine, Lan, Perrin, Loial and Faile who were fleeing from Illian (tDR Ch44).

 

I mean't Demandred's mark :D!

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  I don't have a problem with how Perrin rescuing Faile, although I do feel like he should have gotten the Aiel or Ash'aman to help out, since Rand was already trying to defeat the Shaiodo, instead of working with the Seanchan.  But, by working with the Seanchan, he did impress the commander who fought with him, as her comments in TGS show. 

 

  As for Tuon, I felt like Mat should have someone a little more fun, I was personally hoping for Bridgette, and yes, I know that's impossible.  He kinda got the short stick of relationships, since his wife is at war literally with him...

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First off, I'm on my phone and can't do quotes, so I'm going to speak in generalities.                                              The Shaido deserved what they got. They couldn't be reasoned with, or even taken prisoner. And besides that, the whole world is at war. Perrin crushed the Shaido, which is exactly what you do to enemies like that. In real life if you don't do that, those same enemies will end up crushing you.                                          OK, I have to stop because my phone is cheap and posting and typing on it is a pain in the doodyhole lol. I'll edit this tomorrow when I'm at home. 

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You know what, I know we are a bit OT on Perrin and Faile here, but I want to spit this out while it's fresh in my head. I've always felt the Bashere's are a bit fishy, and some of that is kinda comin together in my head right now. From what *appears* to be the first time she laid eyes on him, Faile pursued Perrin. Single mindedly. Darkhounds, the Forsaken, Lan and Moiraine together couldn't stop her. Her explanation? "you were interesting". That's only marginally fewer words than she used.

In Tear, then, she did a bit of that "stand up for your position" rambling that always sets my hackles up, cos that's how Lanfear, Asmo and someone else dodgy ( I can't recall right now) talk.

We've had a few Faile POVs, but nothing touching the Shadow. I had a third point, but it ran away for a snooze, I'll hunt it down and bring it back later on. I'm not imagining things here, though, am I?

 

One major problem with this tho. He was insufferable when she was taken. What the he'll would he be like if he discovered she was a DF?

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well she said her reasoning for chasing them was because they where a strane group, and she thought that the horn of valere would be at the end of a strange road

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Yep, she did, but that's kinda flimsy encouragement, stacked against Sammael, his slavering beasties and an Aes Sedai threatening to leave you tied up in a swamp indefinitely.

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