A thought on the 'finns

[Lambada]

So I was listening to TSR audiobook when something struck me.

 

When Perrin is in the Wolf dream, chasing Slayer, he ends up at the ToG. When Birgitte appears, and is talking to Perrin, she describes them as evil.

"They are not evil the way the shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be." - Chapter 28 - To The Tower of Ghenjei.

 

And this just made me think of the story of Shadar Logoth / Aridhol. How they became twisted, less human.

 

We all know that SL was used to annhilate another evil (the taint). Could it be that the Finns / Finnland will be key to sealing the Bore? Some have speculated that a buffer is needed so that there can be no backlash like last time. Perhaps the Finns could be that buffer?

 

I know it is weak, but I wanted to throw it out there anyway.

[mossman87]

So I was listening to TSR audiobook when something struck me.

 

When Perrin is in the Wolf dream, chasing Slayer, he ends up at the ToG. When Birgitte appears, and is talking to Perrin, she describes them as evil.

"They are not evil the way the shadow is evil, yet they are so different from humankind they might as well be." - Chapter 28 - To The Tower of Ghenjei.

 

And this just made me think of the story of Shadar Logoth / Aridhol. How they became twisted, less human.

 

We all know that SL was used to annhilate another evil (the taint). Could it be that the Finns / Finnland will be key to sealing the Bore? Some have speculated that a buffer is needed so that there can be no backlash like last time. Perhaps the Finns could be that buffer?

 

I know it is weak, but I wanted to throw it out there anyway.

 

Fain.

 

Edit: Definitely not weak, it's as good an idea as any.  Though I feel the Finns will be responsible in their own way in saving the world (by Moiraine maybe?).

[Lambada]

I'm well aware that Fain is also an option. But that has been discussed elsewhere.

I've never seen anyone offer up the Finns as an option.

[Duskfire]

Its an interesting thought, but I don't think it would work. For one, Finns would have nothing to do with that. And another, they aren't evil; their morals and views are just so alien to standard humans that they merely seem evil. If anything, I think they are as neutral as can be. So there would be nothing to repel the dark ones touch.

[Luckers]

The distinctions you speak of could be used for anything. Take the Seanchan. They are not evil in the way the Shadow is evil, yet they enslave, torture and break people. By Westlands standards they may as well be as evil, as Perrin himself points out. The Finns are different. Those differences have resulted in... unsavory events. Such as the skinning of humans to make clothes.

 

That being said there has never been anything definably evil about them. No taint like SL or the Dark One. Just behaviour we would reguard as bad.

 

 

I am, of course, relatively certain that the evil that created Shadar Logoth is the Unseen Eyes of Tel'aran'rhiod, so perhaps I have a skewed perspective, but I very much doubt this. Certainly there is nothing to indicate the Finns are evil in the Shadar Logoth/Dark One definable sense. They are nasty, but not evil.

[Atan Lodorn]

Considering that Tel'aran'rhiod is the 'unseen' world no wonder there are 'unseen' Watchers, it's 'their' world. ;D

[rhadamanthus]

I am, of course, relatively certain that the evil that created Shadar Logoth is the Unseen Eyes of Tel'aran'rhiod, so perhaps I have a skewed perspective, but I very much doubt this. Certainly there is nothing to indicate the Finns are evil in the Shadar Logoth/Dark One definable sense. They are nasty, but not evil.

 

Luckers:

 

I've read a lot of your theories and I like this one.  However, I am curious if it's more obvious than that.  If the dark one is sealed outside of the pattern, could it be that his prison is in some way connected to TAR?  If so, the "bubbles of evil" (that first show up in Book 4 and continue sporadically from then on) are just manifestations of his impending release inasmuch as they are nightmares brought to life (similar to nightmares in TAR).  Breaking the dark one's prison would then in effect allow TAR and reality to mix, "shredding the pattern" so to speak.  There are a lot of oddities about TAR that make me think it may be related to the DO's prison in some fashion, particularly how evil it is to "enter in the flesh"...

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong - I don't recall all the quotes off hand regarding the nature of TAR.

[Luckers]

In fact the opposite is likely. The Blight has no reflection in TAR because it is twisted by the Dark One's reality, which indicates that the Dark One and TAR are antithetical.

 

In any case the evil which twisted Mordeth, and thus created Shadar Logoth is definately not the Dark One, and the connection is that Shadar Logoth and Fain both manifest with a sensation of Unseen Eyes, as is the sensation in TAR.

[rhadamanthus]

In fact the opposite is likely. The Blight has no reflection in TAR because it is twisted by the Dark One's reality, which indicates that the Dark One and TAR are antithetical.

 

Maybe.  Or it means that the weak point at shayol ghul allows a "large-scale" (and permanent) bubble of evil in the form of the blight.

 

In any case the evil which twisted Mordeth, and thus created Shadar Logoth is definately not the Dark One, and the connection is that Shadar Logoth and Fain both manifest with a sensation of Unseen Eyes, as is the sensation in TAR.

 

Ok, then why would TAR have the same unseen eyes as Mordeth/Fain's unknown evil?  Is this an implication that Fain is in TAR or that the evil came from TAR?

[Duskfire]

The distinctions you speak of could be used for anything. Take the Seanchan. They are not evil in the way the Shadow is evil, yet they enslave, torture and break people. By Westlands standards they may as well be as evil, as Perrin himself points out. The Finns are different. Those differences have resulted in... unsavory events. Such as the skinning of humans to make clothes.

 

That being said there has never been anything definably evil about them. No taint like SL or the Dark One. Just behaviour we would reguard as bad.

 

 

I am, of course, relatively certain that the evil that created Shadar Logoth is the Unseen Eyes of Tel'aran'rhiod, so perhaps I have a skewed perspective, but I very much doubt this. Certainly there is nothing to indicate the Finns are evil in the Shadar Logoth/Dark One definable sense. They are nasty, but not evil.

 

Well yeah, evil to some extent is a matter of perception. However in terms of this discussion, which is using their "evil" to combat the Dark Ones evil, the Finns do not fit that scenerio. As you pointed out, nasty and bad, but in terms of good and evil, they are not the latter. Or the former really. They just are, like the Pattern :P

[jemron]

It's interesting.  I was just re-reading TDR, and in the chapter where Verin introduces Egwene to the dream ter'angreal ring and tells her about the "Unseen World" she says that there are three constants outside of the Patter:  The Creator, The Dark One, and T'A'R.  Maybe these are the "three that become one"?

 

Either way, I'm more and more convinced that there is an evil within T'A'R and that it is directly linked the the evil of Shadar Logoth, as they both have a feeling of "unseen eyes" watching, and Mordeth did some crazy stuff that could only be reproduced in T'A'R or with the power in some way.

 

This doesn't relate to the Finns really, but maybe they are somehow linked to T'A'R or something?  Maybe the redstone doorframes and the ToG and gateways into T'A'R from the real world?  Maybe the Finns are the Unseen Eyes and the Unseen Enemy?  Maybe this is why Slayer possibly went "into" the ToG in T'A'R.  Maybe he actually used it as some sort of gateway back into the real world?  Although, I guess Slayer has the ability to pass back and forth between T'A'R and the real world without any gateway, right?  Hmm...

 

Very cool.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yes I also tohught that the 'unseen eyes' of T'A'R nad the ones in Shadar Logoth were connected but I have to go one step furhter and say that Machin Shin(spelling?) is also connected to the previous two. My only basis for this is the fact that Fain apparently can control Machin Shin.

Also does Fain have Sammael's soul? Was it ever asked of RJ whether Sammael would be seen again  in this way?

[cortezthekiller]

I never read too much into the "unseen eyes" of TAR.  I always just assumed it was a strange feeling associated with dreams that had no real significance.  Being in a *very* strange place can cause anyone to feel uneasy, like someone is watching you...

[mossman87]

TAR is just the area between all the worlds, where pretty much anything is possible as long as you believe it, right?  I'd imagine everything but the Creator and DO are connected to TAR.  Unless it's more than just a reflection of worlds and I've lost my mind. (Edit: Definite possibility)

 

Now, something evil may have found it's way there, I could see that happening.

 

Edit: Also to the first post:

 

WSB: Does the physical location of the world of Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?

RJ: No.

WSB: Have the Finns existed as long as the Wheel?

RJ: Yes.

WSB: Do they have souls?

RJ: Yes.

WSB: Are the Finns from human stock?

RJ: No.

WSB: Did they originate in their current location?

RJ: Yes.

WSB: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?

RJ: No.

 

Edit Edit: Ugh sorry for the edits, noticed I said something that might make people go "O_o" about anything being possible in TAR:

 

Q: Can you explain a bit about the properties of the World of Dreams? Such as when Nynaeve forced Moghedien to drink forkroot tea, which caused the Forsaken to fall asleep. But within that same book, the Wise Ones tell Egwene that drinking tea will in Tel'aran'rhiod will cause no effects upon the body.

RJ: It's a strong matter of belief. If you believe something like that will happen to you, then it can and does.

[Luckers]

In any case the evil which twisted Mordeth, and thus created Shadar Logoth is definately not the Dark One, and the connection is that Shadar Logoth and Fain both manifest with a sensation of Unseen Eyes, as is the sensation in TAR.

 

Ok, then why would TAR have the same unseen eyes as Mordeth/Fain's unknown evil?  Is this an implication that Fain is in TAR or that the evil came from TAR?

 

My theory is that it is because that is where the evil Mordeth encountered, the one that altered him, lives, or that it is using TAR in some manner.

 

 

[Shimmer]

It's a good idea since the 'finns are so different, in the sense that they are not allied with good or evil and this in itself can be deemed a type of "buffer" so the 'finns could actually be used in TG as a buffer not just against the DO but between both Light and Shadow.

[FarShainMael]

Do we know whether Shadar Logoth had its reflection in T'A'R?

 

[Fains nose]

I reckon the unseen eyes are just the souls of normal people waiting to be reborn

[Val Mickey]

2 finns, 3 towers.

 

What's going on? Ideas?