Min's viewing on Beldeine

[Sharaman]

Indeed.

Usually Min's viewings are pretty clear when she sees death.

Sheriam anyone?

 

Are you referring to the viewing of her before Suian was deposed?  I would be willing to bet that she was injured during that mess.  Was there a viewing of her in Salidar that I am forgetting?

 

Indeed.

TFoH: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light;" Min  could not say what it meant.

Read the description of the TGS execution

[algspkr]

Indeed.

Usually Min's viewings are pretty clear when she sees death.

Sheriam anyone?

 

Are you referring to the viewing of her before Suian was deposed?  I would be willing to bet that she was injured during that mess.  Was there a viewing of her in Salidar that I am forgetting?

 

Indeed.

TFoH: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light;" Min  could not say what it meant.

Read the description of the TGS execution

 

I do not remember that viewing, but it reads like those I dismiss as being too vague to allow for meaningful predictions.  I do not remember the description of the execution, though I remember Egwene thinking about what Sheriam said during it.

[Dream]

Here's the text:

 

They'd placed her head on the block and taken it off, just like the others. That scene would always be vivid in Egwene's mind—her former Keeper, lying with her head pressed against the stump, blue dress and fiery red hair suddenly bathed in warm golden light as a thinner section of clouds moved in front of the sun. Then the silvery axe, falling to claim her head.

 

- The Gathering Storm, The Tower stands

 

[algspkr]

Here's the text:

 

They'd placed her head on the block and taken it off, just like the others. That scene would always be vivid in Egwene's mind—her former Keeper, lying with her head pressed against the stump, blue dress and fiery red hair suddenly bathed in warm golden light as a thinner section of clouds moved in front of the sun. Then the silvery axe, falling to claim her head.

 

- The Gathering Storm, The Tower stands

 

 

Ya, those do match up pretty well.  I wonder how many other death visions Min has missed.

[FarShainMael]

I could bear to know exactly what she saw that she interpreted as Alivia helping Rand die.

 

[Random Man]

I could bear to know exactly what she saw that she interpreted as Alivia helping Rand die.

 

Whatever it was, she's pretty adamant that's what the viewing meant. But it might not have been anything tangible, either. It could have just been a bunch of different colors when the two of them were in the same room. Lots of her visions are like that, where she just knows what they mean. When the words come to her, she doesn't always know what the things she says mean, either -- for instance, that of the Aes Sedai and Sorilea serving Rand, each in her own way. Elza killed Osan'gar, but then served him right up to Semirhage. Alivia helping Rand die could be as innocuous as her taking his boots off and making him comfortable a couple hundred years from now when he's on his deathbed.

[Hadilmir]

Why has no one mentioned being severed by the Black Ajah? Cutting her access to the Source like a knife, just as in the Three Rings.

[yoniy0]

For the same reason we don't think Rand will be brought to the Tower for gentling. Or that Egwene will have a baby girl with him. Or that the Two Rivers will be terrorized by that bully Wisdom. Or that Aginor would come back to haunt Nyneave. The Accepted test isn't prophetic, it's just a test.

[Hadilmir]

For the same reason we don't think Rand will be brought to the Tower for gentling. Or that Egwene will have a baby girl with him. Or that the Two Rivers will be terrorized by that bully Wisdom. Or that Aginor would come back to haunt Nyneave. The Accepted test isn't prophetic, it's just a test.

Alright, since you want to pretend you know everything about the Silver Arches (Not the Three Rings, my mistake) I'll drop that part. A black knife still could be interpreted as being cut off from the Source by the Black Ajah. It makes more since than a Bloodknife to tell the truth as Beldeine is unlikely to return to Tar Valon unless she's with Rand or Cadsuane and I cannot see either of them being caught off-guard by a Bloodknife.

[yoniy0]

Ah, weren't you in that meeting? Yeah, I know everything about everything. Glad you've picked up on it :).

 

Seriously, two thirds of the testings we've seen can't be interpreted as prophetic. Do you have an explanation that reconciles that with them allowing one to see the future?

[Random Man]

Ah, weren't you in that meeting? Yeah, I know everything about everything. Glad you've picked up on it :).

 

Seriously, two thirds of the testings we've seen can't be interpreted as prophetic. Do you have an explanation that reconciles that with them allowing one to see the future?

The experiences one has upon entering the rings are very similar to T'A'R; in fact, it's a lot like walking into a dream (or nightmare) of one's own making. Nynaeve was able to create her own exit after the arch had closed upon her, and in doing so she imagined the thorn-pricks on her palms into reality (which did not heal properly, similar to Verin's scar she received in T'A'R). We know that both Egwene and Nynaeve have precognitive abilities (though Egwene's abilities as a Dreamer are much stronger and more specific) so it wouldn't be a surprise for some true information to filter through in a place like this.

[Luckers]

Indeed we do know that the rings use TAR--Alanna states that the effect that almost killed Egwene is caused by two ter'angreal designed to do similar things being in close proximity. In this case the arches and the twisted dream ring were the two ter'angreal.

[Random Man]

Indeed we do know that the rings use TAR--Alanna states that the effect that almost killed Egwene is caused by two ter'angreal designed to do similar things being in close proximity. In this case the arches and the twisted dream ring were the two ter'angreal.

Between this and the other info we know about the Arches, we could potentially deduce that the Arches pull the user into a dream of the user's own making in T'A'R. This would explain both the prophetic knowledge Egwene received and the parts of her experience that were simply untrue because she didn't know any differently (ageless face without swearing on the Oath Rod, for instance).

 

So the short of it is that Egwene seeing Beldeine as her Keeper in the Arches doesn't really mean anything. I have a feeling that the viewing might mean Beldeine may be turned via the 13/13 trick, which would loosely tie into what Egwene saw in the Arches, but I'm not sold on it, either.

[Luckers]

Well we know dreams don't predict definate futures. Possibly that is what the Arches does, finds and displays potential futures that resonate with your fears, but that doesn't mean that those futures are likely. In fact they'd almost certainly not be likely given they've been drawn out not for accuracy, but for their resonance with a persons worst fears.

[yoniy0]

I'll concede to similarities, but I think the arcs don't just pull one into tel'aran'rhiod, since the only people you see there are those whose dreams touch it for a few moments, or else people who know how to enter it. You can't meet an entire village there, nor can you meet 'double's of existing people.

[Lambada]

I'll concede to similarities, but I think the arcs don't just pull one into tel'aran'rhiod, since the only people you see there are those whose dreams touch it for a few moments, or else people who know how to enter it. You can't meet an entire village there, nor can you meet 'double's of existing people.

Remember when Egwene was teaching the Salidar AS about how to use it and they all got caught in a nightmare involving Trolloc cookpots (I think it was that)... are you saying that Trollocs dreamed themselves into TaR?

[Luckers]

I'll concede to similarities, but I think the arcs don't just pull one into tel'aran'rhiod, since the only people you see there are those whose dreams touch it for a few moments, or else people who know how to enter it. You can't meet an entire village there, nor can you meet 'double's of existing people.

 

I never said the arches take one into TAR, but that it uses TAR.

 

Remember when Egwene was teaching the Salidar AS about how to use it and they all got caught in a nightmare involving Trolloc cookpots (I think it was that)... are you saying that Trollocs dreamed themselves into TaR?

 

The Trollocs were a nightmare. The way it works is if someone who is having a nightmare touches TAR (in the normal brushing) then sometimes the nightmare can stay. Also that was Elayne not Egwene.

[Sharaman]

It should also be possible for a talented user of TAR to "wish" trollocs into existence. Just as Egwene did with Bela or Bair (?) wished up snakes to scare the AS.

[Lambada]

Remember when Egwene was teaching the Salidar AS about how to use it and they all got caught in a nightmare involving Trolloc cookpots (I think it was that)... are you saying that Trollocs dreamed themselves into TaR?

 

The Trollocs were a nightmare. The way it works is if someone who is having a nightmare touches TAR (in the normal brushing) then sometimes the nightmare can stay. Also that was Elayne not Egwene.

Fair enough with it being Elayne, my mistake.

 

But my point was just that not everyone who appears to be in T'a'R is actually there, which is what I read yoniy0 to be saying: "the only people you see there are those whose dreams touch it for a few moments, or else people who know how to enter it." Me mentioning the Trolloc nightmare was just an example of how yoniy0 was wrong. The Trollocs were most definitely neither just touching it, nor do they know how to enter TaR. Thus yoniy0's objection was incorrect.

[Luckers]

Yoniy0's comment was technically correct--the only people you see are those who have dreamed themselves in. The Trollocs were constructs. Dangerous ones, but constructs nonetheless.

[yoniy0]

Ah, I see Lambada's point now. You say that one can construct doubles of existing people in tel'aran'rhiod much like what Egwene did with Bella (after all, domesticated livestock aren't supposed to appear in tel'aran'rhiod as well).

Well, I can't prove you wrong there. Certainly, the fact that someone was able to Dream trollocs (which have souls just like human beings, however tainted by the DO) into being is evidence in your favor.

Nevertheless, I don't think that constitutes proof. My personal feeling is that you can't, else we would have seen some wondering about, but I have no proof of that. Does seem like a question that Brandon (or Maria) will be inclined to answer, so maybe someone should ask him (yeah, I'm talking to you, the Americans amongst us).

[Luckers]

Nynaeve wears Melaine's form. If she can construct the image, and via Egwene you can cunstruct living personalities (the men she has attack Nynaeve), then you can construct an acting personality with the image of a real person.

 

That being said was anyone arguing that? I think you have perhaps gone off on a tangent yoniy0

[yoniy0]

Why do you say that? If it is possible to construct images of existing people in tel'aran'rhiod then it's conceivable that the Arcs do indeed take one to a corner of the Unseen World and stage the testing there.

[Luckers]

Yes, that is concievable. The Arches do use TAR in some manner, so it may be that, or it may be some other method. I don't see where the points you've been arguing relate to this.

 

I said what I said because you've been throwing up comments that don't seem locked on what people have said. I'm not sure what you're arguing against.

[yoniy0]

Well, let me try and explain myself.

Random was theorizing that the Arcs pull the user to a Dream of his/her own making in tel'aran'rhiod. I objected on the grounds that the testings included people whom we know, and they obviously weren't part of the testings themselves. I later conceded that it may be possible for those images to be created in tel'aran'rhiod, though as I've mentioned, I'm still not convinced that that is indeed how the Arcs operate.