What's In The Future For Graendal?

[Red Hand Man]

It could be that Graendal wanted to say Rand "I won't attack you, don't be afraid"...

 

It's like a mouse handing a cup of milk to a cat, hoping it won't be eaten in my book...

 

And the link to farthammer's post, I don't agree with. The shift between Graendal and the Forsaken in Rand's discusion with Ramshalan is improbable, although it is possible to interpret it this way. However, thinking Graendal understood this I don't believe it. But it could explain why she put that answer in Ramshalan.

 

But if he came back saying, "oh, my Lord, she just passed away a week ago!" With compulsioncall over his brain, it would have had the same result. Whatever Ramshalan said, as soon as Nyn delved him, she was trapped. Except if she fled beforehand...

 

Well, all are possibilities.  However, I'm of the opinion that Rand knew Graendal was going to get all of that info, intentionally told the plan to Ramalamadingdong and didn't care what she did to him.  The whole exchange is a win-win strategically for Rand (except for the whole depravity and lack of humanity part), so regardless of whether or not she sees through his ruse he has come out on top by either:

 

a.  Scaring the crap out of a Forsaken and put her under his influence

b.  Offing her

 

I'm just surprised more people don't follow this train of thought, hasn't RJ done this sort of thing several times?

[WWWwombat]

I like farthammer's idea.  Rand doesn't usually explain things in depth to even his closest friends, let alone treacherous sycophants like Ramshalan.  However, if this is the case, then it means Rand killed all the people in Natrin's Barrow just to make it seem Graendal was dead.  I'm not sure if even DarkRand was ruthless enough for that.  Also, there's Rand's arrogance to be accounted for; he might have been too arrogant to consider an alliance with one of the Forsaken.  If I had to bet money on it, I would bet that Graendal is dead for good, but I do like the way farthammer thinks.

[Demiandre]

Yes, it's strange that Rand told his plans to a wool headed Lord with to few brains to step carefully where a hundred warders would step precauciously (isn't it a mix between Nyn and Moiraine burst of irritation ??)

 

So he knew that Graendal would know of it. But looking at what he says and seeing a demand of alliance in it? It's hard to believe for me. Rand indeed wanted her to know something.

 

* that he wanted to off her in a few minutes? Weird

* that he was trying to be smarter than her?

* that he was sure she was here?

 

As the Dark Rand, he could just have wanted for her to provide a proof, and just off her with balefire, and be done with it. No trying to enter, she would flee, not let her set plot with Ramshalan. Just finish her. He is dark, but making an alliance with Graendal would be disastrous, and horrible as he shall win Tarmon Gai'don...

 

Or except it is the danger of beeing emotionless. You do all for the purpose you've set yourself at, and no matter what the consequences you fulfill your duty. (As Graendal commented on Demiandre in the Prologue...)

 

 

[bubbified]

Everyone here is doing the same thing Grendal did if she died, the thing Rand was counting on.  You can't gaurantee what they think, except that whatever it is, it helps them win or helps them live.

 

Most of the people in these books who think they are good at des' demar (spelling?) are missing the point that rand gets finally.  You can try to guess all day what someone else is thinking, then act on that one guess, but its much easier to make your opponent make assumptions about you and let them have to act quickly on those assumptions.  Its funny that mat is the best at it, lol.

 

On the surface, Rand was attempting to make Grendal sit down and play a game of stones with him.  He was hoping that she'd be confident enough to sit down and play.  The forsaken, and others, are arrogant enough to do that, in fact, they, and others, do it throughout the books.  The many reasonings throughout this thread are a testament to the many plans Grendal could think of.  But as soon as she starts thinking, she would start thinking she can win.  This time though, Rand doesn't play, he just punches her in the face.  None of us could know whether Grendal decided to run this time, despite the fact that she's been sitting down to play most of her life.

 

We have prudence, telling her to run.

Pride, telling her she can win.

 

Which do you think she felt the most during the few minutes she took to decide?

[Demiandre]

@Bubbified

Prudence. And pride. She would smile to the facr that Lews Therin admire her intelligence, but wouldn't make such a mistake as trying to believe you can win. She  is known to make sure she wins. Preferably in one blow.

 

But I like your resonning, and I can only agree, and however bad I said it, I mentioned it in the post just above yours. I said Rand had va proof, then balefired her.

 

But I would also say that Rand activated her ego by saying she is smart and then it killed her. She thought she could prove him how much smarter she is, and caused her failure. Also what I said when I mentioned that she was dead as soon as Nyn delved Ramshalan.

[bubbified]

Ya I was writing mine while you posted yours.  She most likely died because she would see some chance for gain, and believed herself capable of winning it.  Her emotions told her there was no danger from there on, nullifying prudence, most likely.

[Demiandre]

Oh! Then sorry guy! I  didn't check the time... (and better for me, it's 9:21 pm here, so it won't say much to me if I don't take care when reading it :) )

 

But then I would not say she lacked prudence. She is beeing descried and told of as a sneaky-sneaky webbing venomous spider much more dangerous than the little tiny afraid englued eight-legged  arachne whose name is unearned.

 

 

[Jeangray]

Graendal extracts Rand's conversation, knows what he "plans" to do and sends Car Ramrod back with that exact response letting him know that she has agreed to what is essentially a demand.

 

Thoughts?

 

As far as Graendal knew, Sammael had some kind of understanding with Rand too and yet Rand went and offed him. She also failed at manipulating Sammael himself. I don't see much room for her being complacent enough to be a sitting duck. 

[Demiandre]

Apart from the offing chapter of Graendal, what strikes me as odd is Kerb, the candler's apprentice. It seems a very lack of prudence from Graendy's part to let him remember, even angry, the very location where she is hiding... She let him as a vegetables, but Rand managed.to extirp the two words condeming her : Natrin's barrow. If he hated her, wouldn't he have said something else??

[OptimusPrime]

Apart from the offing chapter of Graendal, what strikes me as odd is Kerb, the candler's apprentice. It seems a very lack of prudence from Graendy's part to let him remember, even angry, the very location where she is hiding... She let him as a vegetables, but Rand managed.to extirp the two words condeming her : Natrin's barrow. If he hated her, wouldn't he have said something else??

 

That I think was not an example of Graendal leaving loose ends. Rand was forcing the Pattern to his will, which he does several times in TGS. A deaf man would have heard him kinda thing.

[farthammer]

Rand and Graendal both believe a direct conflict between them is not going to happen, although for different reasons.  So, a stalemate.  After pages and pages of basically repeating the same arguments over why she must be dead or alive, at some point you just have to skip past that discussion and try and figure out what might be the result.  It isn't even necessary for Graendal to have immediately seen every nuance in the message Ramshalan was passing.  She has already taken a good look at what attempting a truce with Rand results in via Sammael.  Except in the case of Sammael his idea of truce entails continuing to rule out in the open.

 

But once discovered, Rand has had no problem at all completely trashing palaces trying to root Forsaken out (Rahvin), or in the case of Sammael even fleeing will get you killed.  However even in going after Sammael, Rand just found himself to be a pawn in the schemes of Moridin.   Sammael dies and gets what he wants, but right away he's back to being a tool.  He is eventually told by him that BF is the only means to ensure Forsaken stay dead.  It's not knowable to Rand how that might factor into Moridin's schemes, except it is a weakness if he is led to believe someone was killed by it when in fact they were not.

 

So if Graendal is dead then mission accomplished.  Otherwise he just lit a bonfire male channelers all over the world are going to sense and threw it all at Graendal's fortress, Moridin and the others will know this, and he even left Ramshalan behind at the scene if anyone came out to check.  Now if you are Graendal and made it out alive you have just been given a huge advantage over the others.  She doesn't need to trust anything besides the fact that she has been given an awesome cover, she has had demonstrated Rand will death ray entire fortresses with even the slightest bit of evidence, even from an untrustworthy emissary.  She knows that Rand knows enough about the Forsaken to hone in on subtle, specific parts of their personalities and past to mark them out, without relying on any sort of trust between them.

 

IMO Rand went into this thinking he had a couple good outcomes covered.

[Vermillion]

I have a hard time believing Graendal knew he would mass balefire the palace to have been able to fake her death and knew he was check compulsion to prove it.  There are million ways he could attack but she chose defend against the most hardcore and unlikely attack. It goes against her billiance that she would react in a matter of minutes to the most extreme attack u can concieve.

 

Likely, she made plans to get the hell out of dodge but to do all this exoitic weaves on the outside chance Rand is hardcore enough to unleash the strongest balefire beam ever based on not only on her compulsion being there but disappearing is far fetched.

 

The point was that he could not out smart her in them game to win.  He just gave her enough to sit and play. Then u punch them in the face.

[Thor]

Apart from the offing chapter of Graendal, what strikes me as odd is Kerb, the candler's apprentice. It seems a very lack of prudence from Graendy's part to let him remember, even angry, the very location where she is hiding... She let him as a vegetables, but Rand managed.to extirp the two words condeming her : Natrin's barrow. If he hated her, wouldn't he have said something else??

 

This point is irrelevent, unless you come up with a suggestion of somebody else who could have laid a compulsion weave on Ramsalan, it is simply ridiculous to even suggest that she wasn't at the palace at the time of megabalefire.

[farthammer]

That's the same post that's been made probably 40 times in this thread.  What if she's dead?  Then she's dead.  What if she's alive?  Then what might she do (thread title), or continue arguing she can't be alive when I'm not even arguing she must be.

[Thor]

Facts:

She must have been at the palace when Ramsalan went in. If you want to dispute this, put foward another name who could make the compulsion.

Rand balefired the place.

Compulsion dissappeared after balefire.

 

Assumption:

Graendal does not have the ability to unravel weaves.

 

Conclusion:

Graendal is dead.

 

Counter-argument:

Sammuel once used a trigger weave to kill his messenger upon failed negotiation, graendal could have used a trigger weave as well.

 

Counter-counter argument:

Nynaeve would have seen any residue given that Graendal cannot unravel weaves.

[farthammer]

I was responding to the post above yours (Vermillion).

 

She must have been at the palace when Ramsalan went in. If you want to dispute this, put foward another name who could make the compulsion.

 

Despite having a clear view of the fortress and watching people coming and going, no one saw Ramshalan enter or exit.  They only knew he returned after a crashing noise in the brush along with cursing.

[Vermillion]

Facts:

She must have been at the palace when Ramsalan went in. If you want to dispute this, put foward another name who could make the compulsion.

Rand balefired the place.

Compulsion dissappeared after balefire.

 

Assumption:

Graendal does not have the ability to unravel weaves.

 

Conclusion:

Graendal is dead.

 

Counter-argument:

Sammuel once used a trigger weave to kill his messenger upon failed negotiation, graendal could have used a trigger weave as well.

 

Counter-counter argument:

Nynaeve would have seen any residue given that Graendal cannot unravel weaves.

 

The weave did not disappear.  It was "erased." Meaning that there was no trace or residue that it was ever there.  No brain damage fromt eh heavy compulsion.

[Thor]

Yeah so you are basically saying Graendal is dead, which is kind of like what I'm saying, no/yes?

[bubbified]

So Greandals futre.

 

Dead-nothing

Alive-She furthers her own goals, and tries to follow her orders

 

Following her own goals: Sets up shop somewhere else.  Makes life miserable for her fellows.  All of this under the guise of being dead, until SH breaks her cover.  Then just follows her orders.

 

Follows her orders: Makes life miserable for Rand by sending agents to mess with elayne or aviendha.  Or at least engineers lies about that which reach Rand.  Capturing them and forcing rand to do something he doesn't like, just like with Semi,(through agents though) would be pretty bad.  Impersonating one of them and coming to him in the night might be pretty bad too, especially if Min catches them and says "that wasn't elayne you woolhead!"

 

Who knows why no one has taken out aviendha or elayne already.  Or any other big characters connected to Rand.  They should've been able to take them all out in a couple hours or less right at the beginning.

[Vermillion]

That's the same post that's been made probably 40 times in this thread.  What if she's dead?  Then she's dead.  What if she's alive?  Then what might she do (thread title), or continue arguing she can't be alive when I'm not even arguing she must be.

 

Sorry, they closed the Graendal is dead or alive thread.  

 

To me the only non-cheesy way she could be alive is that she wasnt there and somebody else compulsed him.  I just dont see her having someone else there with that level of skill nor do I believe anyone has the ability to make heavy compulsion vanish. That could be interesting to see who it was

 

The insanley smart and paraniod angle is far fetched to me.  Cheesy. It goes against the Forsaken are flawed humans.  She would have to be insanely smart to consider his plan and paraniod to act on it as his course of action

[farthammer]

Well ok, I don't want to get too bogged down in the is she dead or alive argument, but your comment did lead me to run across something I have not seen in this thread or the other.  Specifically some situation where someone has manipulated weaves remotely, and it turned out to be Graendal herself.  One part of the problem is Nynaeve was asked to verify compulsion without realizing the gravity of the situation, and the quote that's in the OP:

 

TGS page 572

Nynaeve walked over to Ramshalan and looked at him for a moment. She hissed and said, "Yes. Rand, he's under a heavy Compulsion. There are a lot of weaves here. Not as bad as the chandler's apprentice, or maybe just more subtle."

 

So she was going by sight alone, someone not too familiar with compulsion weaves.  I wondered if they could be faked in some way, what could these weaves be tied to if not the persons brain?  This is what Ramshalan looked like when he was summoned prior to being sent to the fortress:

 

TGS page 566

Footsteps in the entryway behind drew Min's attention, and a few seconds later a servant ushered in Nynaeve and the foppish Ramshalan, with his pointed beard and thin mustache. Today he had tiny bells at the end of the beard and wore a black velvet beauty mark on his cheek, also in the shape of a bell. He wore a loose silk costume of green and blue, the sleeves drooping, ruffled shirt poking out beneath.

 

This is the first time I can remember someone putting bells in their beard of all places.  The Arafel I think put them in their braided hair.  The beauty mark on his cheek was previously a bird in flight.  Some sort of siginal?

 

Lastly, this is a unique case of someone manipulating weaves through an unopened gateway.  Recall that Rand had left the gateway completely open.  Here she sends some kind of chime weave through an unopened one with the use of an angreal:

 

Path of Daggers page 290

 

Graendal's hand went to the only ring on the table that was not a signet, a plain golden band too small for any but her little finger.  It had been a pleasant surprise to find an angreal attuned to women among Sammael's possessions.  A pleasant surprise to have time to find much of anything useful with al'Thor and those puppies who called themselves Asha`man constantly in and out of Sammael's chambers in the Great Hall of the Council.  They had stripped it bare of what she had not taken.  Dangerous puppies, all of them, especially al'Thor.  And she had not wanted to risk anyone being able to draw a line from Sammael to her.  Yes, she must increase the pace of her own plans, and distance herself from Sammael's disaster.

 

Abruptly a vertical slash of silver appeared at the far end of the room, bright against the tapestries hanging between the heavy gilded mirrors, and a crystalline chime rang loud.  Her eyebrows rose in surprise.  Someone remembered the courtesies of a more civilized Age, it seemed.  Standing, she forced the plain band of gold down against the ruby ring on her smallest finger and embraced saidar through it before channeling the web that would sound an answering chime for whoever wanted to open a gateway.  The angreal did not offer much, yet anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.

 

Now from anything I can find, setting up a mock compulsion weave remotely to fool someone not adept at compulsion at all and appeared to only give it a moments notice, seems pretty possible to me.  Anyone able to provide something RJ said or something I don't know to say otherwise?

 

The only other time a black velvet bell is mentioned is in TGH when Domon runs into a few Cairhieniens in the Badger, wearing black velvet bell shaped hats, offering him tons of money to take his ship from Mayene to Tear.  Paying with Tar Valon marks.

[bubbified]

Actually, I'd use the same quotes form your post to note that Greandals first reaction isn't to run.  Intead her first reaction is to assume she has the upper hand with visitors, even when she's surprised and doesn't know who they are.  Assuming she has the upperhand with the in an unknown surprise is ridiculously arrogant, and not prudent at all.  Kinda shows how she would react to the less direct threat of the messenger.  It shows she'd kinda dumb too.  If the visitor had wanted to attack her, the visitor wouldn't have rang her bell.  Which means she was jumping at a knock on the door, then continued to get her shotgun before answering it.  Both not-intelligent on the fly, and arrogant, a deadly combonation.  You can back this up when we look at her interaction with samual, we can see that when pushed unexpectedly, her mind works badly.

 

The difference in the weaves is troubling.  But the subtleness of the weaves would be explained buy other responses she could make just as easily.

 

If she suspected at all that the messenger came from Rand, then any compulsion she placed on the man would be different from the candle maker.  If she intended to kill Rand, she'd have sent a trap within the man, so that it blew up when touched by the OP or when the man was delved, or some other trigger and effect like that.  If she intended to stay alive, staying to lay a weak compulsion on the guy was a high risk for little gain.  If she intended to manipulate rand, then she planned to stick around and beat rand at stones, in which case, she didn't leave the palace, because she was already in the mind set she was playing a game and in control, not a mindset that dictates a person run for their life.  The two mindsets contradict each other.

 

Most likely, she's dead.  But since this isn't my story, it could be either way and everyone has said the same 40 points like someone else already said, which means lets talk about something better.  I'll make a new thread about it, it relates to this topic.

[Sharaman]

Graendal knows this chime is a visitor from the AoL. Rand is unlikely to announce himself

If you want to know how she would intended to react to Rand, here's a Graendal PoV.

She could flee Arad Doman, establish herself elsewhere; it would not be difficult. Giving up the little games she

played there, and even the larger games that might have to be abandoned, would be a small loss compared with

having al'Thor—or Lews Therin—come after her. She had no intention of ever confronting him directly; if

I$hamael and Rahvin had fallen to him, she was not about to risk his strength, not head-on.

Any reason why she would have changed her mind about not facing off?

 

[bubbified]

Exactly, the small games, even the big games, would have to be abandoned, in order to avoid confronting him directly.  She didn't think she could play him and confront him.  So she would've either ran flat out because she thought he was right outside, or she would've tried to out think him with the messenger, in assumption that he is not directly facing her.  The fact that she tried playing a little game meant she thought she was not directly facing him.

 

Rand gave her enough to think she had him, but not enough to realize he was sitting outside with a massive balefire ready to go.  I think somewhere else she mentions being ready to run at even a wiff of balefire.  That pretty much means if she had any idea what he was planning she would not bother with little games and just abandon ship.

[Sharaman]

She could hardly fail to realise he was sitting outside since he told ramshalam that he would keep an open Gate. As to balefire, does she really need to guess what methods he needs to use?

She knows he's found her. 

The Compulsion test can be bypassed in several ways as mentioned in this thread; even by dumb luck because Rand didn't set it up rigorously.

OTOH, she might have been caught by the sheer magnitude of what Rand did.

RAFO I guess.