Where do you think Demandred is?

[Cybertrolloc]

I think it's safe to assume that the forsaken (with the possible exception of moridin) doesn't know what the DO intends to do with the world once he's free.

I wouldn't go that far, but they do believe there will be a world after the DO breaks the wheel and that they'll have positions of power in what follows.

 

I agree with your assessment of Dem as general of whatever armies the Shadow musters and overall TG strategy. I would be freer assigning known shadow plots to him. Look at what Sammael had his fingers in (nearly every plot from book 4 through his death) all while running Illian. From one of Jordan's question of the week comments about uber-Forsaken (Ishy, Dem, Sam), I expect as much from Dem, though he has some part in what Sem and Mes have accomplished with the Seanchan and the Tower. He does lament about what the DO allows him to do in his LoC cameo in TaR's Caemlyn.

[Guest cwestervelt]

So you believe Rahvin's plan was to place himself in Andor' date=' then when T'G comes along he disappears, goes through the dubious task of destroying the world but completely bypassing Andor so that afterwards he would have military backing to reign as Nae'blis? So, if all went according to plan, Illian, Cairhien, Andor, and Tear would be off limits to the shadowspawn so that their forsaken rulers could rule the world afterwards?[/quote']

 

No. I think that Rahvin, Sammael and Be'lal thought they could keep their respective territories at odds with each other long enough that Tarmon Gai'don would arrive before they could unify, thus keeping them out of the main battle. They don't expect they world to be completely destroyed. Like in the War of Power, with those countries already under control of the Shadow, there would be no need to attack. The side of Light would be too busy fighting Trollocs near the Blight to try anything and they could just ride things out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Having a position of the Dark One's general would make the establishment of a pre Tarmin Gai'don power base a little pointless. The Foresaken that have been doing so were attempting to establish their positions for post Tarmin Gai'don life. They would need to keep their armies out of Tarmin Gai'don to be able to maintain that later. Rand needs those armies and anyone, Foresaken or otherwise, who tried to keep them out would be a target for removal.

 

Now, for Demandred, being the top dog militarily changes the situation. He stays out of sight and doesn't draw attention. Then if the Shadow should win Tarmin Gai'don, and there still happened be anything left, he would be in control of the only military body of consequence. He can carve out whatever territory he would want with no one to stop him.

 

 

That is a very cogent point.

 

Allow me to try to build on it.

 

The only territory adjoining the area where the Shadow keeps its army is the Borderlands. All of which are currently WITHOUT THEIR LEADERS. What if Demandred took an interest in one of them, and helped arrange the little jaunt their leaders took, as a means of making his approach through the Borderlands that much easier? And maybe taking some power by being the one appointed to be in charge while the ruler was away?

 

Of course, given my other theories about how the Dark One intends to win, this would be irrelevant. But it would be an advantage to the Dark One's general to have a free pass through one of the Borderlands. That way the Trollocs could spread out and filter through a thousand small passes, instead of being bunched into the easier to defend confines of Tarwin's Gap.

 

So instead of being in the Borderlanders army in Andor, maybe he's in charge one or more of the Borderlands themselves. Minimal Compulsion, or other use of the Power, should have secured him a spot as a "trusted advisor" who might be left in charge. And that would help in not having seen him yet, we've seen nothing in any of the Bordelands since The Eye of the World (until Nynaeve totally put one over on Lan, that was the first time I've cheered Nynaeve in a LONG time).

[Vicious Circle]

From the first time The High Inquisitor Rhadam Ansunawa came on the scene, he seemed a likely prospect for proxy to Demandred, I mean really, showing up out of nowhere, reading the basic primer for Whitecloaks was some obvious foreshadowing. He was technically second only to The Lord Captain Commander in power, but the LCC had to answer to him. They started out as the main armed force in Randland, and that sounds like Demandred's kind of guys. Later we learn Demandred is also giving orders to DF Asha'men close to Rand. Now days it's hard to guess which of the characters are taking his orders, but it seems likely he has something to do with the BT and probably has someone close to Rand, I'm guessing one of the Asha'man warders. In any event, I doubt he is only using one guy at a time. But I agree that we have probably not seen his actual character yet, except with the other Forsaken.

[Vicious Circle]

Oh yeah, I also think he's the one who posed as Sammael and sent the trollocs through the Ways after Rand.

[Luckers]

That simply doesn't seem like Demandred. Demandred by all accounts is a brilliant general, he knew after the Cleansing that Rand had a fair number of channelers around him, not to mention the Choedan Kal and Callandor... it simply doesn't make sense for him to throw away a hundred thousand trollocs like that. It doesn't really make sense for most of the Forsaken, who have seen the power used as a weapon in truth, and know what it can do to even numbers.

 

As for Ansunawa... perhaps... on the other hand a man whose profession is torturing innocent people into confessing to crimes they didn't commit is gonna be fairly nasty in his own right. Not all the evil in the world is the Dark One... case and point Shadar Logoth.

[Colmana]

i think he is behind the couch

 

thats where most things end up

[Vicious Circle]

Well, Rand and Logain both repeatedly say the attack was "a close-run thing". And that if Logain had not just happened to show up, "and" his Asha'men "and" their Aes Sedai, it probably wouldn't have been a victory for the Good Guys.

I'm thinking, Demandred knows about Lews Therin in Rand"s head, it seems unlikely his partner Semirhage could be the only one who knows. So they've got to be wondering, just how far has Lews Therin taken over? Is he crazy enough to use something as immensely powerful as the Choedan Kal, or even just Callandor(and all the Forsaken know about it's lack of buffer), over a few hundred thousand "Trollocs"? His spies must have seen how Rand has been avoiding using the power accept when he feels he has to. Pushing Rand into a corner did drive Lews Theron to lash out. They must know that Rand had not used Blossoms of Fire, Arrows of Fire and Deathgates ever before. I think this was a test of Rand's control over Lews Therin, and now they know he doesn't have much.

[Vicious Circle]

Oh yeah, and the Sammael disguise was just for plausible deniability, incase he actually did kill Rand.

[joeybsmash]

demondred lives in a small box under the bed of the king of kandor's 12 year old son. it is only 420 square inches, but his superior design sense makes it feel like 840 sq inches. demondred recently applied for a permit to add on to his small box, but his application was denied because the prince's first sword belt and an old stones board were too close to the property.

[Luckers]

Vicious Circle, when i say it makes no sense for a forsaken to have instigated that attack because it was a stupid attack i mean it from the point of view of Demandred. Yes it was a close-run thing, but that was because Rand thought to use neither the Choedan Kal nor Callandor. Demandred had no way of knowing he would be so foolish... indeed, it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

I'm thinking, Demandred knows about Lews Therin in Rand"s head, it seems unlikely his partner Semirhage could be the only one who knows. So they've got to be wondering, just how far has Lews Therin taken over? Is he crazy enough to use something as immensely powerful as the Choedan Kal, or even just Callandor(and all the Forsaken know about it's lack of buffer), over a few hundred thousand "Trollocs"? His spies must have seen how Rand has been avoiding using the power accept when he feels he has to. Pushing Rand into a corner did drive Lews Theron to lash out. They must know that Rand had not used Blossoms of Fire, Arrows of Fire and Deathgates ever before. I think this was a test of Rand's control over Lews Therin, and now they know he doesn't have much.

 

Rand has used Arrows of Fire. In any case them knowing of LTT just makes the attack more senseless. They know what sort of thing a knowledgeable channeler can do to an army--they'd seen it first hand in the Age of Legends...

 

His spies had not seen how Rand have been avoiding the Power. Not even the Light has really noticed--Nynaeve knows he gets dizzy spells, but none of them know he is avoiding the power. And the only place a darkfriend has noticed anything of the sort was near Ebou Dar, where Rand plays it off anyway.

 

Why would it be crazy to use the Choedan Kal or Callandor to fight a force of a hundred thousand strong? That was part of their original purpose... the destruction of the armies of the shadow after throwing a net over the bore to confine the Dark Ones influence. That was the plan. What would that have to do with LTT anyway?

 

All of the Forsaken had just had first hand experience of the type of power Rand could bring to bear. They know that the Light with him have an assortment of angreal, sa'angreal and ter'angreal specificall designed for battle. Sending a hundred thousand trollocs to attack makes no sense, and tips their hand.

 

Sending them to test... what? LTT's influence?... i dont see how anything that could have come out of that would have indicated LTT's influence. He could have easily have learnt blossoms of fire and deathgates from Asmodean... remember, he hasn't personally fought in a large scale open battle since learning to channel except against the Seanchan, and even then he couldn't see his enemy except in small groups, and deathgates make a rather pointless weapon against humans.

 

Finally what gain do they get out of knowing LTT's influence on Rand... they've known Rand has been getting info and knows stuff he shouldn't for books... why tip their hand and remind Rand they are there for such a task?

 

Taim on the other hand. He has shown himself to be sloppy. Sending people in for direct frontal assaults on the off chance he can kill Rand. He always makes sure the blame cannot be attached to him, but not very cleaverly. Remember too that he was wearing Sammael's sigil in the Epilogue. The attack fits his MO.

 

Then we have opportunity. Several days before the attack Logain and his crew return to the Black Tower with knowledge of where Rand is. They spend a while there organising the exodus of Asha'men to various armies and tasks. We know Taim was demanding to know where Rand was. My guess, he found out through either a mole, or one of the Aes Sedai, whom we know deliberately set out to forment chaos in the Black Tower.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just as a side note .... if it was Taim that sent them, he's been Chosen. I personally think that's the case anyway .... but his responsibility for this attack would confirm it, because of how he sent the Myrdraal and Trollocs into the ways. If he did it, he obviously impersonated Sammael, and the Myrdraal can sense the special mark given to the Chosen, which is why they autmatically follow the Chosen's orders (Shaidar Haran, as always, excepted). So the Mask of Mirrors wouldn't have been enough, the mark would have to be present too, and I doubt it can be duplicated. That doesn't really bear on his motive/means/opportunity, which Luckers already explained, but it would be interesting as confirmation. There are plenty of ways he could have figured out where Rand went, from a spy/mole, to reading residues on a gateway Logain wove, to a hundred things I haven't thought of.

[Luckers]

It would makes sense. Taim is Forsaken trained--which sort of alleviates the disdain the Dark One has for modern channelers. He has doen a conciderable amount in service of the shadow, and the Dark One is likely looking for figures outside the Chosen given the recent hash of individualism amongst the Chosen (Mesanna, Moggy, Cyndane etc), and then there is the simple fact that the Chosen have dwindled in number.

 

Plus, if Alviarin can get herself even a weak version of the mark after all she's screwed up, then Taim can get a propper one.

[Vicious Circle]

Yes, I do think it would be crazy to use the Chodan Kal, a sa'angreal so powerful they could "break the world beyond rebuilding" just to kill a hundred thousand trollocs. Lets use a metaphor. Say you have an ant hill in your back yard. Would you use an intercontinental nuclear weapon to keep them out of your sugar bowl? No.

 

Perhaps you are right about one of Logain's party ratting out Rand's location, they might have just as easily noticed that Narishma, the guy who's been using Callandor, was not around just then. Maybe.

 

And yes I think Demandred has a much better idea of what symptoms Rand's "madness" will take and signs to look for than Cadsuane or any of Rand's party. A little test to see how the two/three (Rand/Lews Therin/Moridin?)(if Moridin has shared that little secret, which I doubt) of them would react to a surprise full frontal assault, doesn't sound preposterous to me.

 

Taim=Chosen I don't buy. Yes, it's hard to know what category to put the guy in, which is pretty effective for letting the "Lord of Chaos rule". But Moridin has brought Cyndane to The coffee Hour without bothering to let the other Forsaken know who or what she is, just that she is considered one of them. Why would he allow Taim that much power, keep it secret, and then not monitor what he was doing closely enough that Taim could feel free to disobey him so blatantly?

 

Sorry if I sound defensive, but the little voice in my head thinks I make sense.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Maybe the little voice in your head is a madman :lol:

 

I'm just teasing you, but seriously, just because Taim doesn't show up at the Coffee Hour meetings doesn't mean Moridin doesn't have him on a tight leash. It just means he doesn't want the other "Chosen" to know about him yet. IF Taim is Chosen. Its plausible, but until we have proof that he sent the 100,000 after Rand, it's just speculation. Plausible speculation.

[Vicious Circle]

I have to agree, ... with both of your suppositions. :lol:

[Luckers]

I actually think Taim is under the direction of Shaidar Haren... and that Moridin doesn't even know of him.

 

Just because teh choedan Kal has that power (when used as a pair i might remind you) doesn't mean its use will result in that. Rand and Asmodean proved that in tSR. Originally it was intended to be used against the armies of the Shadow.

 

What backing do you have for suspecting that Demandred knows more about Rand's issues with the power? I agree he knows more of LTT then Cads... and what would be the significance of testing him in this manner... i see no gain in it.

[Vicious Circle]

I don't know, it's just when I heard Semi frightening the Scoobies (weird american pop culture joke) with explanations of LTT in Rand's head, it made me think. The DSM threesome must have been trying to think of a way to exploit their main opponent's weakness of having a "Bat $#!+ Insane Guy "IN HIS HEAD"....sorry i yelled ... I mean this guy could lose it and destroy "everybody he ever cared anything about in the whole wide world", talk about a lose cannon! Maybe sneaking up behind him and going BOO could work?

 

Did I mention the little voice....? 8)

[Trib4l]

I don't know Luckers, with the proliferation of red and black at the end of KoD, I'm feeling pretty certain that Moridin is stirring that pot.

[Luckers]

Mesanna was in charge of Alviarin too, but that has stopped Shaidar Haren from going over her head.

 

Oh i don't doubt that Moridin has been taking a hand in Taim and his actions, i just suspect that SH is playing his own game seperate of Moridin.

 

Also, i think Taim was acting on his own in the particular incident. Shaidar Haren underestimated him in my belief.

[cloglord]

I really like the idea of Demandred as the DO's general, but why are we looking for one powerbase for him then? Sammael was gunning for Illian, Bel'al for Tear, Ravhin for Andor, Graendal for Arad Doman, Semhirage for Seanchan, Messanna for the White tower, but what was MOghedian's goal, Lanfear's, Asmodean's? If we look at Demandred's motives in terms of him being named as the general for the DO, it makes pretty good sense.

 

What if Demandred's only goals are to screw up the militaries of Randland? He's working with Messanna and Semhirage. Semhirage has managed to take over half of the world, has plunged the entire seanchan army into chaos, and almost took the most powerful single military force besides the aiel, the seanchan, out of the picture, by trying to get Tuon killed as well. Unless by some miracle, which is likely, Rand can convince the seanchan to help, Semhirage would have kept the two halves of randland's forces from even talking to each other. Demandred could only see good in this in a divide and conquer sort of way.

 

What about his other partner, Messanna? Well, she seems to have managed to divide as well. The tower is divided, and a much easier target than it would have been. Divide and conquer, I'm sure that Demandred would be happy to help Messanna all she wanted.

 

What about the borderlanders? Four of the most militaristic countries in Randland, standing in his way. Why not get trick bashere into following the dragon? Surely that would get the borderlander's attention. Hmm, I wonder if having half of the borderland's armies, and their rulers, half a world away from any fighting would help? Divide and conquer.

 

What about the Ashamen? Isn't recruitment a pretty vital part of any military? Of course he's going to know a few Ashamen, he's not going to defeat the white tower, even split like it is, solely with the BA. He needs his OP artillery, so maybe Taim acts like Demandred, because he takes his orders from him.

 

Aswana, could be a pretty good proxy too. I mean he's done a pretty good job of overthrowing a stable leader and delivering the whitecloaks to the Seanchan didn't he? Sounds like a little more divide and conquer.

 

What about the prophet? Amadicia and Ghealdean were pretty ineffectual under the prophet weren't they? Half the people with him, and the other half secretly against him. Sounds like another good oppurtunity for a proxy. Divide and conquer.

 

If you look for oppurtunities for Demandred to weaken strong, pro-light forces, they are all over the place. Demandred hasn't been carving out a territory, he's been preparing to lead a massive trolloc invasion, and he's been quietly dividing his worst opponents all along.

[vegetattack15]

I was looking real close to the dialogue in Harry Potter books. If you pay attention Dumbledore sometimes refers to Voldemort as the Dark Lord. That's right you heard it hear first. Dumbledore is actually Demandred. He will come to Tarmon Gaidon with an army of house elves and polyjuice potions.

 

Sorry couldn't help myself there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I see I've finally attracted the "crazy" element.

 

Ah -sniff- my thread is all grown up and in therapy.

[DemandredFO]

I'm gonna have to break dow and agree with cloglod on this one, minus his sarcasm. I agree that demandred would like to divide before he conquers and I also agree that the 13 AS with the borderlanders are Black. That particular plan might have worked well but Nyneave F@$*&d it up by forcing lan back there to lead an Army.

On another matter, I think Ishamael at least would know that Asmodean couldn't have taught Blossoms and Arrows of fire, cuz I think Lanfear would have told him what kind of shield she put on Asmodean.

On yet another matter, I don't think any Ashaman warders could be Darkfriends cuz I would think the bond would tell the AS. But I could be wrong

[rd2000]

I am pretty sure there was a BA Aes Sedai that had several warders. One DF warder and one not. If a warder can't tell that his AS is a darkfriend, maybe it can work the other way as well.