Egwene's Strategic Options

[Jemlin]

Pulling anyone into your dream, or into Tel'aran'rhoid in the flesh is an EVIL thing as was clearly explained to her by the Wise Ones. I highly doubt Equwene will do that.

As was traveling in the flesh. The Wise Ones are mistaking an action for an intent. An action is not evil just because an evil person does it, that's the exact opposite of the truth. That is like saying that since Michael Vick played Football that all NFL players are cruel to animals. Losing a touch of your humanity might be worth it to you to do something of value. Preventing thousands of deaths from a Gateway invasion from the Seanchan would be worth destroying a small amount of two dozen Aes Sedai's humanity, and even be considered a Good act since it is sacrificing the few for the many.

 

Traveling in the Flesh was only harmful to herself. Causing harm to another is a completely different matter.

 

 

[Durinax]

Pulling anyone into your dream, or into Tel'aran'rhoid in the flesh is an EVIL thing as was clearly explained to her by the Wise Ones. I highly doubt Equwene will do that.

As was traveling in the flesh. The Wise Ones are mistaking an action for an intent. An action is not evil just because an evil person does it, that's the exact opposite of the truth. That is like saying that since Michael Vick played Football that all NFL players are cruel to animals. Losing a touch of your humanity might be worth it to you to do something of value. Preventing thousands of deaths from a Gateway invasion from the Seanchan would be worth destroying a small amount of two dozen Aes Sedai's humanity, and even be considered a Good act since it is sacrificing the few for the many.

 

Traveling in the Flesh was only harmful to herself. Causing harm to another is a completely different matter.

and we have seen she is perfectly capable of harm to others so whats the big deal, in fact causign harm in this manner would only increase the WT's reputation as being all powerful so I could see her doing so just to bolster that reputation

[wvlr2]

On thought that occured to me is--why doesn't Egwene pull Elaida and the other Aes Sedai that were captured into the Dream and sever them from the True Source? Egwene must have met most sisters in the Tower by this stage--there were only two hundred. Evene if she could only find the dreams of half that stands the possibility of getting all who know traveling.

 

Besides, severed from the True Source the Aes Sedai would not be holdable by the a'dam. Sure the Seanchan might hold them for crimes. I'm not sure. It'd still be better than being leashed, even if it was execution. And ultimately they could be healed.

 

Of course its possible the a'dam protects your dreams, like Mat's medallion.

 

In some aspects, I like this idea Luckers except for the following issues.

 

1.  As others have mentioned above - per the WOs it is Evil.

 

2.  Mesaana now has most of the "Dream Angeral" and I am very concerned about Egwene doing much in the Dream World.

 

3.  Surely some of these AS have Warders - to do this would kill them or drive them to the "death fight".  (true they may already be in this state with their AS enslaved)

 

 

Number (2) is the only one that I think can't be worked around.  But then it is the most random of the issues.

 

But the others might be addressed by the following:

 

Issue (1) could be addressed by Egwene pulling each one into the dream and explained exactly what she was doing and why, and then it would reduce the Evilness of the act.  Also assurances that once they were released (if) that they would be healed.    Someone mentioned above that they could immediately released from the dream to wake up & unclasp the collar.  Then pulled back into the dream & healed.  Then they Travel out ASAP.

 

Issue (3) the Warder issue could be addressed in a similar manner.  Before each one was stilled they could transfer their Warders to Egwene/Leanne (she could use Suian's dream ring).

 

 

 

One “sort of” good thing about this method is that even if the Seanchan learned “Healing” it would be healing by a woman & so the healed person would be weaker & probably not able to Travel.

 

I – being Evil as I am – might consider having Egwene pull in other channelers near the captives and Still them as well.    If possible.    Can a Sul’dam be stilled?      I would think so.

 

 

All of this is better than doing nothing.  But if she is going to do something like that, I would rather have her pull a couple captives into the dream & then use them to make a dream world gateway directly into the captives’ tent so they could all be immediately removed.    Of course Elaida would need to be left stilled and captive.

 

 

 

 

 

Some form of action to rescue the captives’ needs to be taken.  An all out war is not possible because TG is so close, but to let the Seanchan just do what they want would just court more attacks from them.    Egwene already knows that the Seanchan priorities are all screwed up and that they want to collar (or kill) all AS.    If they do not address the issue immediately. Strategically it is likely to bite them in the ass.    Especially since ignoring the issue, would give the Seanchan Traveling and AS that could make Gateways directly to their own apartments in the WT.    Preparing for the Last Battle is necessary – VITAL – but it does no good if you have another enemy that can, and will, attack you without notice.    Before the Seanchan had Traveling security would have been sufficient to have a perimeter of lookout scouts around TV and the WT and guard AS on lookout on the roofs of the buildings.    But if the WT does not squash these departing Seanchan raiders before they give away Traveling then they will have no possible way to warn about the next attack.      Which could well be on the eve of TG or some other major event.    Actually, they already have to worry about that, due to Egwene’s premature BA reveal but if they do not address the Seanchan issue they have to worry about a second enemy with the same abilities.

   

 

Before, the Seanchan were somewhat venerable because of their flying beasts.    With Traveling they no longer have those limitations.    With no warning the Seanchan can send in another Raiding Party to points all over the WT and TV.    Not only that but Elaida had MOM as well so they could disguise themselves – yes the would have to stay in pairs to hide the leash, but MOM would provide critical moments of uncertainty when the Seanchan Channelers could get the attack advantage.    Not only that, but the Seanchan have shown that they are quite willing to just kill the AS that they can not Collar.    How can you protect yourselves when invisible Blood Knives can appear at anytime and anywhere in the WT.?    With Traveling and Fookroot the Seanchan and AS detailed knowledge of the WT, they could pull a Perin and Spike the WT water supply or the Kitchens.    (Is that really Loras or is it a Seanchan in disguise?)

 

Once the Seanchan issue is resolved, Egwene needs to do some serious delegation.  There is just too much that needs to be done.

 

Pull in the Kin and others and see which ones can be promoted to full AS ASAP.    Also, set up a group to devise a plan on how to mesh the two groups the most harmoniously.

 

Move up the training on all the Novices and Accepted.   

 

A AS group selected & sent to Rand and ask him to help them check the status of the AS that went to the BT as well as come to an agreement with him.    They would also extract all AS currently with him to the WT for re-swearing.    Send similar AS representatives to Perin & Mat who she knows are Tavern & important to the Last Battle.   

 

Send AS representatives to the Borderlanders, Murandy and all over.  These same AS would direct all AS scattered about the different locations back to the WT (under guard) for re-swearing.

 

Devise a plan to track down the BA. 

 

 

 

 

Another thing that should be considered is a WT raid on Ebou Dar.    The captured Damaine should know what rooms the Empress is in and the guard situation.    Surely some of them could have had guard duty.    If there are two entrances to her chambers then two Gateways over the entrances would keep everyone out & then take in as many AS & troops as is needed to capture her.

 

 

 

 

Sorry it is late & this is not a complete well written plan/post but it does address some of the issues.    Something does need to be done.

 

The way her last chapter read, I doubt that Egwene will stage a rescue.    I am resigned to that disappointment, but truth be told it is strategic idiocy for her to allow the Seanchan to have the ability to Travel into the WT at any moment.    Any other preparations are meaningless if at any moment another raid can occur

 

[Durinax]

the only hopes the WT has of the seanchan not gaining travellign is if the concussion Elaida has manefests into amnesia or death (I believe she is the only one captured who knows it)

 

besides I think that AS are going to surrender it anyways in negotiations

[Hadilmir]

Traveling in the Flesh was only harmful to herself. Causing harm to another is a completely different matter.

Shooting a person without reason is evil. Shooting a person who is in the process of killing many people is not evil as per Consequentialism. The latter is exactly what Egwene would be doing in the short run.

[wvlr2]

the only hopes the WT has of the seanchan not gaining travellign is if the concussion Elaida has manefests into amnesia or death (I believe she is the only one captured who knows it)

 

besides I think that AS are going to surrender it anyways in negotiations

They (Egwene & the WT) can not depend on such luck.  They need to take action while they have a small window of opportunity.

 

It takes several days to return to Ebou Dar by flying beast.  They have to land and make camp several times.  When the beasts are on the ground they are especially vernerable.  With the Warders from the captured AS, Egwene can track the raiding party down.  She had an army already gathered & prepared for an attack.  All she has to do is to redirect them along with some AS in Circles and with Angreal.

 

But every moment of delay increases the chance that Traveling & other weaves will get out.

[Luckers]

On the 'evil' of pulling someone into the dream against their will, the Wise Ones state only that it is evil because it was used to do evil. In much the same a knife may or may not be evil depending on its use, so too would this.

 

I'm not saying that Egwene doing this would be pleasant. It wouldn't. It would be necessary, and probably better than the alternative for both the Tower and the captured Aes Sedai, but still unpleasent. It would not, however, be evil.

 

Also I've seen people talking about it 'losing people their humanity'. That is entering the dream in the flesh, not being pulled into to it against your will.

[Random Man]

On the 'evil' of pulling someone into the dream against their will, the Wise Ones state only that it is evil because it was used to do evil. In much the same a knife may or may not be evil depending on its use, so too would this.

 

I'm not saying that Egwene doing this would be pleasant. It wouldn't. It would be necessary, and probably better than the alternative for both the Tower and the captured Aes Sedai, but still unpleasent. It would not, however, be evil.

 

Also I've seen people talking about it 'losing people their humanity'. That is entering the dream in the flesh, not being pulled into to it against your will.

Before we get too into this, the first question should be whether Egwene even knows how to pull someone into the Dream, shouldn't it? She knows how to send messages to others while they sleep, but pulling them into T'A'R is another matter entirely. I don't recall anything that says she is capable of doing so. Anyone else know?

[Luckers]

Yeah she does. She described it as using a small hooking gesture.

[Random Man]

Yeah she does. She described it as using a small hooking gesture.

Thanks for the clarification. Is it known whether a woman wearing the a'dam can enter T'A'R? Considering that Moghedien couldn't free herself from the a'dam (yes, I know it was Elayne's version of the a'dam, but its functioning wasn't fundamentally different), I would say it's doubtful but unproven one way or the other.

[Luckers]

Yeah thats the thing that makes me think this might be unlikely.

[farthammer]

If she could do that why wouldn't she use the captured AS for information and strike at the sul`dam and other important seanchan?

[Random Man]

If she could do that why wouldn't she use the captured AS for information and strike at the sul`dam and other important seanchan?

Why not, indeed. The feasibility of Egwene being able to do it is the primary issue. Secondary to that is whether she'd think of doing so, and whether she'd be willing to do so. As pointed out above, it's doubtful that someone leashed is able to access T'A'R, pulled into it or otherwise.

[Lambada]

Hmmm...

One problem I can see with Egwene doing such a thing to go on the offensive, would be that it would perpetuate the Seanchan belief that Aes Sedai need to be controlled to stop them doing things like that.

[Luckers]

So what?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I have to agree with Luckers, I doubt the AS actually care what the Senchan think.

[Lambada]

If Aes Sedai go on the offensive, it wouldn't be that long before almost every nation would want them to be collared so their own nations can be 'saved' from the Aes Sedai. They would fear an attack from Aes Sedai already if it wasn't for the 3 Oaths. And yet we know how an attack would get twisted by rumours, which would probably lead most to think, like the White Cloaks, that the 3 Oaths were a lie.

 

It's one thing for them to be seen attacking shadowspawn (who look like shadowspawn), where it is obviously the right thing to do. It is quite another for them to be seen attacking those who look pretty normal to most people, those who don't appear to be shadowspawn or darkfriends. In fact, those in the lands they have conquered are generally happy. An attack by Aes Sedai on the Seanchan would make those people start thinking like Seanchan too.

 

Most of the White Towers strength comes from the fact that they can unite almost every nation to a cause. If they attack ,they will no longer be able to, as nations will fear them almost universally, and will thus be almost useless apart from as One Power wielding weapons.

[StefanR]

Nobody would fear them if they didn't meddle and manipulate as much

[Lambada]

Nobody would fear them if they didn't meddle and manipulate as much

I have to disagree there. People fear them because of what they can wield and do with the Power. Yes, secretly meddling and manipulating doesn't help, but it's not the root cause of people's fear.

[Luckers]

There is a distinction between action and evil.  The Seanchan have enslaved Aes Sedai. That's monstrous. The Aes Sedai have every right to be perfectly monstrous back.

 

And you are wrong in your presentation. It is well known Aes Sedai do not tolerate agrievences against them. Thrones have fallen doing so, and they will tell you as much as often as they can. The Seanchan leash Aes Sedai. Nations will not panic should the Aes Sedai bitch slap them because of it. In fact they will expect it.

 

Not that this would satisfy that anyway. What non-channeler would appreciate the drawing in on a slave to a dream to cut them off from the One Power as a monstrous act?

 

The Seanchan would be pissed, but its no less then their current perspective. As for the rest--the White Tower is wary of common opinion, but they'll not let it cripple them.

[Durinax]

There is a distinction between action and evil.  The Seanchan have enslaved Aes Sedai. That's monstrous. The Aes Sedai have every right to be perfectly monstrous back

 

I dont think they can be monstrous, RJ already stated in the books that you cant fight fire with fire so to speak (shadar logoth)

[Luckers]

There is a distinction between action and evil.  The Seanchan have enslaved Aes Sedai. That's monstrous. The Aes Sedai have every right to be perfectly monstrous back

 

I dont think they can be monstrous, RJ already stated in the books that you cant fight fire with fire so to speak (shadar logoth)

 

 

Certainly they can. The SL situation--fighting evil with evil--was flawed due to the inherent taint of true, quantifiable evil. What we are talking about here has no such taint. It involves doing things percievably bad, yet they can be effective. That one man pulls a sword on you does not mean you can't pull a sword back, for all that killing is not nice. So too here--the Seanchan pulled a sword by raiding the Tower. Egwene could pull one back by robbing the Seanchan of the value in their captives.

[Durinax]

There is a distinction between action and evil.  The Seanchan have enslaved Aes Sedai. That's monstrous. The Aes Sedai have every right to be perfectly monstrous back

 

I dont think they can be monstrous, RJ already stated in the books that you cant fight fire with fire so to speak (shadar logoth)

 

 

Certainly they can. The SL situation--fighting evil with evil--was flawed due to the inherent taint of true, quantifiable evil. What we are talking about here has no such taint. It involves doing things percievably bad, yet they can be effective. That one man pulls a sword on you does not mean you can't pull a sword back, for all that killing is not nice. So too here--the Seanchan pulled a sword by raiding the Tower. Egwene could pull one back by robbing the Seanchan of the value in their captives.

the thing is going to arguably evil methods to fight a perceived evil is exactly what the people of shadar logoth did. They didnt accept some other evil they used evil methods and it hardened their hearts and made them imoral monsters. and this isnt self defence, sure the seanchean opened the war between the two that just means that egwene has to gowith warfare not pulling people into tar and destroying them (and she would by stilling them, those AS would break down completely, many would jsut die and others would reveal everythign they could in order to get vengeance)

[Luckers]

the thing is going to arguably evil methods to fight a perceived evil is exactly what the people of shadar logoth did. They didnt accept some other evil they used evil methods and it hardened their hearts and made them imoral monsters.

 

No. Brandon stated Mordeth, in his search for ways to fight the Dark One, found an evil which twisted him. That evil then twisted Ardihol.

 

Without realising it they did indeed accept some other evil into them. Without that evil they wouldn't have consumed themselves.

 

and this isnt self defence, sure the seanchean opened the war between the two that just means that egwene has to gowith warfare not pulling people into tar and destroying them (and she would by stilling them, those AS would break down completely, many would jsut die and others would reveal everythign they could in order to get vengeance)

 

It is self defence. It deprives the Seanchan of a weapon. No matter how much the stilled woman is later broken down she couldn't show the Seanchan traveling.

 

As for the rest, you are wrong--When she was stilling them she could simply inform them that there was a way to be healed. Each of them already knew of Leane. They wouldn't, as you suggest, break down completely. They wouldn't die, or reveal things to get vengence. They would understand that it was for the greater good of the Tower, that it freed them from the a'dam, and that it left them a chance to regain the shawl.

 

 

[Durinax]

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and this isnt self defence, sure the seanchean opened the war between the two that just means that egwene has to gowith warfare not pulling people into tar and destroying them (and she would by stilling them, those AS would break down completely, many would jsut die and others would reveal everythign they could in order to get vengeance)

 

It is self defence. It deprives the Seanchan of a weapon. No matter how much the stilled woman is later broken down she couldn't show the Seanchan traveling.

 

As for the rest, you are wrong--When she was stilling them she could simply inform them that there was a way to be healed. Each of them already knew of Leane. They wouldn't, as you suggest, break down completely. They wouldn't die, or reveal things to get vengence. They would understand that it was for the greater good of the Tower, that it freed them from the a'dam, and that it left them a chance to regain the shawl.

how would telling them those things make them continue wanting to live when the singlemost important thing in their lives disappears? I believe the seanchean would still hold them prisoner, they would still be depressed due to the loss. Plus being stilled for the reason that they where captured, with no action plan to go get them and bring them back, the hall would never allow it it would give egwene complete control and she would be a tyrant. remember the shawl does not change the person and in fact achieving the shawl seems to make them more greedy and selfish. Whats to say that they wish to be diminished in the power and thus of status in front of others (if they where recovered)

 

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the thing is going to arguably evil methods to fight a perceived evil is exactly what the people of shadar logoth did. They didnt accept some other evil they used evil methods and it hardened their hearts and made them imoral monsters.

 

No. Brandon stated Mordeth, in his search for ways to fight the Dark One, found an evil which twisted him. That evil then twisted Ardihol.

 

Without realising it they did indeed accept some other evil into them. Without that evil they wouldn't have consumed themselves.

 

yes one man accepted the evil, but I was refering to the people of aridhol, they did not accept it, a glib tongue fooled them into commiting atrocities and by being willing to do such horrors that doomed the city.