Sharina & Bode

[Charlz Guybon]

Now that Tower is reunited I expect them and others to be raised Accepted immediately.

 

But what about Aes Sedai. Taina is already giving the stronger/more skilled women advanced lessons. Will they be fast tracked to the Shawl in order for Tarmon Gaidin?  It be rather lame to have women as strong as Sharina and Bode cooped up in the Tower while the apocalypse goes down.

 

A big bonus would be a scene between Mat and his Aes Sedai sister. ;D

[yoniy0]

One difference between Sharina and Bode is that Sharina actually seems ready for the Shawl, or at least very close to that point.

We don't get to see how much progress Bode has made the last couple of months, but I can't imagine she's matured enough to deserve that. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean she'll stay locked inside the Tower for TG. They're going to need every hand on deck, I reckon.

[Charlz Guybon]

One difference between Sharina and Bode is that Sharina actually seems ready for the Shawl, or at least very close to that point.

We don't get to see how much progress Bode has made the last couple of months, but I can't imagine she's matured enough to deserve that. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean she'll stay locked inside the Tower for TG. They're going to need every hand on deck, I reckon.

She's probably more mature than half the Aes Sedai out there given her experience during the invasion of the Two Rivers. And her skills with the powers seem good, she was the third best at making Cuendillar.

[walkerhound]

 

A big bonus would be a scene between Mat and his Aes Sedai sister. ;D

 

or in facet his new wife and his Aes Sedai sister...

[Luckers]

I agree with Yoniy0, I don't necessarily think Bode's ready for the shawl. That's not to say she's not capable, she has learnt many things needed by Aes Sedai, some, that as you have pointed out Aes Sedai could do with learning, but I still think she is too young. She needs more time to grow in herself.

 

Keep in mind I would have said Nynaeve and Elayne weren't ready when they were raised. Nynaeve is now, in my opinion, and has been since Caemlyn, but Elayne still needs to learn to think things through (that abysmal failure with the House on Full Moon Street, and her certainty that Min's viewing ensured safety, for instance).

 

The Aes Sedai have alot of fools amongst their number, but that Bode is not subject to that foolishness doesn't necessarily mean that she's ready for the shawl in her own right.

[Shadow Rider]

I don't think it will matter, when the battle begins it's all hands on deck Shawl or no Shawl.

[yoniy0]

Luckers, that's not fair. I won't make the case for Elayne's actions, though I'd have liked to. Instead, let me just offer a point of reference, Moiraine in NS. New sisters are more reckless, that doesn't make them unfit.

[Luckers]

Moiraine, even in New Spring, is not as reckless as Elayne. Two women died because she believed that Min's viewings ensured safety, and she neither paused nor reconsidered that opinion when it was proven false. I do not believe she has the emotional maturity to be in the role of authority she has attained. She can get there, she has all the raw materials needed--the intelligence, the strength of self--but she should not currently hold it. That's the great problem with autocracies.

 

Don't mistake me as well, I think Nynaeve is more reckless than the average sister. To some degree I even see this as an asset. But then as I've stated the failings of current sisters doesn't immediately infer that women should be granted the shawl simply because they lack those failings.

[Mcpatrick]

Moiraine, even in New Spring, is not as reckless as Elayne. Two women died because she believed that Min's viewings ensured safety, and she neither paused nor reconsidered that opinion when it was proven false.

 

Luckers, you are talking about her attempt to capture the black sisters in KoD, right?

 

Out of curiosity, what would you have done in her place?

[Val Mickey]

There's not enough time to raise most of the novices. They'll all have to pass the Accepted level, then recover, then study 100 weaves (minimum).

 

Mcpatrick, I think Luckers meant the Gaidin. Or taking more precautions such as observing the house etc well you get the picture.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Elayne could have gone in with two full circles of 13 (including the Kin), led by her and Vandene, and several thousand guardsmen.  Bedford Forrest never lost a battle in the ACW, because his strategy was "I get there first with the most [men]."  Elayne did neither, and hundreds of people died because of it.

[SuperFade]

I agree with Luckers, Elayne does not have the maturity to be Aes Sedai or indeed Queen of Andor. Her running off after the BA was an atrocious betrayal of everyone around her and resulted in hundreds of avoidable deaths simply because she wanted to be a hero. Sorry girl, you're QUEEN now, you can't go running off at the drop of a hat anymore.

[DemandredFO]

Sharina and some of the others that we haven't seen are probably ready for the shawl.  I'm wondering will they be allowed to get there; I'm still wondering if Sharina for one isn't destined for a fatal "accident".  They're too old will be the main argument against it(main AS argument).  It is foolish to waste Sharina and others as batteries in circles but I don't forsee Egwene writing a new rulebook.  I hope I'm wrong but I have no faith in Egwene.

[aunt_pol]

Egwene won't see strength like that wasted. Sharina will have some kind of authority, maybe as assistant to Tiana - or maybe Tiana will conveniently disappear/ get murdered by the Bloodknives and Sharina will be raised super quick to be Mistress of Novices.

[Jasonm]

hasn't egwene said on numberous occasion that she is going to make anyone and everyone that can even barely touch the source a part of the tower. And if they can attain the Aes Sedai level, then they will be Aes Sedai, if not...didn't she say something about going into the Kin or something like them?

[aunt_pol]

Exactly. The Kin, the Windfinders, the lot. She wants to boss them all. Mind you, I would really like to see a scene where the Windfinders try pushing Eg around.

[Charlz Guybon]

Sharina and some of the others that we haven't seen are probably ready for the shawl.  I'm wondering will they be allowed to get there; I'm still wondering if Sharina for one isn't destined for a fatal "accident".  They're too old will be the main argument against it(main AS argument).  It is foolish to waste Sharina and others as batteries in circles but I don't forsee Egwene writing a new rulebook.  I hope I'm wrong but I have no faith in Egwene.

She's the one who rewrote the rule book in order to enter them into the novice book. Not thinking she'll take the next step is bizarre.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

It is foolish to waste Sharina and others as batteries in circles but I don't forsee Egwene writing a new rulebook.

 

First, (as Charlz points out) Egwene has demonstrated a willingness to change the rules when necessary, otherwise Sharina would not be with the Tower in the first place.  So, you don't have to "forsee" it.  She has done it.

 

Second, being "batteries" in circles is hardly a waste ... actually, a smaller number of more powerful circles could be more easily deployed and used to greater effect than a sort of "every-woman-for-herself" approach.

 

Finally, while Sharina and others have demonstrated great strides in learning to use the Power, they've hardly been practicing battle weaves, much less tactics and coordination.  My guess is that the Green Ajah will get its chance to shine in the days ahead, leading circles that include full Sisters as well as "mere" novices and Accepted.

 

hasn't egwene said on numberous occasion that she is going to make anyone and everyone that can even barely touch the source a part of the tower

 

Egwene has indeed made that clear as her desired goal.  But I sincerely doubt there will be time to accomplish it in any serious measure before the Last Battle.

[Luckers]

Luckers, you are talking about her attempt to capture the black sisters in KoD, right?

 

Out of curiosity, what would you have done in her place?

 

Drowned them in Kin, or at the very least established a perimeter of Kin in the event something did go wrong. Elayne gave no consideration for potential failure, and all because of the certainty of safety from Min's viewing.

 

Failing isn't necesarily a sign of bad leadership, but Elayne rushed in unprepared without even pausing to think of the alternatives. In fact, when Careane and Sareitha raised some she dismissed them airily. I could probably even have abided her doing exactly the same as what she did had she given thought to the weight and dangers of the plan beforehand, but she did not, and that is what I mean when I speak of her lacking the necessary maturity at this stage.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

Yes, Luckers is right.  Elayne isn't quite as annoying as some on these boards seem to think, but in that particular episode, she dove into the rapids headfirst without a life vest.  While juggling baby geese.  Wearing a wooden clog one one foot and a twelve-inch stilettoed platform on the other.  Oh and chain mail ... tied around her thighs.  While eating chocolate ice cream topped with molten ...

 

... well, you get the point.  A better plan could have been made.  Her planning for the situation conflated what she perceived as a guarantee of personal safety with a guarantee of success.  Bad tactical thinking.

[Val Mickey]

Luckers, I disagree about the Kin. They'd never let the Kin face Aes Sedai.

[Luckers]

Firstly, it was asked what I would do, and that is what I would do. Kin have already faced Aes Sedai. They've held one prisoner, and since then they've only grown stronger in themselves. Yes, I can see Elayne not wanting them to have to if they didn't need to--I can even admire that. But Elayne knew there were variables and things that could go wrong--Sareitha and Careane warned her of the problems.

 

So yes, keep it within the Aes Sedai for the initial attack, but for the Light's sake have Kin nearby in the event something goes wrong. But yes, that is what I would do and I don't fault Elayne for not doing it, I fault her for not even thinking of it, or a variant thereof. I fault her for not even being willing to listen to the suggestion that more might be needed, that dangers existed. And I fault her for not realising her fault even afterwards, with her refusal to admit guilt because the only other way was to let the Black Sisters go free--and that was not the only other way.

 

Which is precisely the point here. As I said, I could abide Elayne doing everything she did exactly as she did it, if only she'd considered the risks. Failure can occur, risks can be taken, and neither imply bad leadership. It was her unwillingness to consider the risks that marks her as too immature for leadership now, not that she continued in spite of them.

[Charlz Guybon]

It is foolish to waste Sharina and others as batteries in circles but I don't forsee Egwene writing a new rulebook.

 

First, (as Charlz points out) Egwene has demonstrated a willingness to change the rules when necessary, otherwise Sharina would not be with the Tower in the first place.  So, you don't have to "forsee" it.  She has done it.

 

Second, being "batteries" in circles is hardly a waste ... actually, a smaller number of more powerful circles could be more easily deployed and used to greater effect than a sort of "every-woman-for-herself" approach.

 

Finally, while Sharina and others have demonstrated great strides in learning to use the Power, they've hardly been practicing battle weaves, much less tactics and coordination.  My guess is that the Green Ajah will get its chance to shine in the days ahead, leading circles that include full Sisters as well as "mere" novices and Accepted.

 

The greater the strength the woman has the greater the detail she can see and weave. Sharina will only have to see those weaves once to replicate them. Making a fireball, the earth explode or a lightning bolt is easier than the advanced healing that Sharina has already learned.

[yoniy0]

I could abide Elayne doing everything she did exactly as she did it, if only she'd considered the risks. Failure can occur, risks can be taken, and neither imply bad leadership. It was her unwillingness to consider the risks that marks her as too immature for leadership now, not that she continued in spite of them.

Oh, you tempt me. Fine, here's my 2 cents. Consider that Marillin Gemalphin and Falion Bhoda came and went from Lady Shaine's manor, and in order to catch them still there Elayne had to act quickly. Consider that Elayne also had a spy and a murderer in her inner circle, with no good way of flushing her out. Elayne devised a plan that would accomplish both those goals, and then carried it out. It did fail, there's no denying that, and that failure resulted in many deaths.

But consider this next point as well: the failure of the plan wasn't Elayne's doing, it was Moridin's. HE was the one to send an additional four Black sisters to the manor house at exactly the wrong moment, sisters that didn't frequent the house (or else Elayne's surveillance of the manor house could have warned her of the possibility). Saying Elayne should have had a precautionary set in place to counter anything Moridin might do is simply unfair. Her plan would have seen to most eventualities. As someone once said, "failure can occur, risks can be taken, and neither implies bad leadership".

[Luckers]

Again, though, I repeat. I could have abided what Elayne did had she been willing to consider alternate views. As I've said a couple of times I don't take the simple failure as sign of either incompetence, immaturity or bad leadership.

 

What I do take is that when Sareitha and Careane raised potential other threats (including the possibility that other black sisters might show up) Elayne didn't even pause to consider it. Similarily in the aftermath she thinks to herself that she feels no guilt because the only other option was letting the Darkfriends go free--which it wasn't. She could have called in the Kin, established perimeters, set up scouts to watch for anyone approaching the house so that she could have warning--in effect there were many things she could have put in place to prevent what occurred--and recall that what occurred was pointed out to her directly.

 

That is why I blame her. Not for the failure, but for her refusal to consider the ways in which she might fail, and thereby guard against them, or even just her refusal to concede shortcomings in her planning that may have led to the failure in the aftermath.

 

All of it is due to the certainty of her perceptions, which is what I meant when I stated that I do not believe Elayne currently had the maturity to hold the authority she holds. She is intelligent, strong willed and well educated, but she simply lacks the self-awareness a good leader should have, and as such she constantly sticks her head in the fire because she cannot percieve beyond her own perceptions.

 

As someone once said, "failure can occur, risks can be taken, and neither implies bad leadership".

 

Yes, and the next thing I said was...?