Moiraine set it all up to get Mat in the ToG

[saidarisnowtainted]

I think that Moiraine and the 3 man rescue through the ToG has more to it.

 

The reason I’m saying this is because Moiraine was shown all the possible futures. She learns what steps must be taken in order to reach her goal. Basically, she has a cheat sheet on how to get an A. she has all the answers.

Therefore, it should be understood that everything Moiraine did after that point was intentional. She knew where each step would take her.

 

Given that she knows that she is going to enter Finnland and eventually (if successful) exit Finnland, I can only find one significant factor in her story thread. The entirety of her actions caused events to force Mat, Thom and the third guy to enter Finnland through the ToG.

 

She goes and fights lanfear knowing she will enter Finnland and destroy the doorframe; causing a situation where the only way in/out is the ToG. She knows she is going to be trapped by the Finns. Her rescuers must be Thom Mat and the 3rd man

 

Now, I think the three men are necessary but for different purposes.

1. I think the whole point was that Mat had to go into Finnland via the ToG. Something big is going to happen. Giving up half the light of the world to save the other half may happen here.

2. Thom and the unknown man are necessary to Moiraine being rescued and them all escaping.

3. If the third man is Noal, and if Noal is Jain Farstrider, I can see him as a valuable commodity for a hostage exchange.

4. The Letter does not state that all 4 of them have to leave. It only states that the 3 men must come.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

I don't think Moiraine would go through that if it meant a hostage exchange. She'd basically be throwing somebody else's life away and would have looked for other ways instead. I have an idea somebody is going to be left behind in ToG and Mat's going to go back in after them, though. Siuan likens him to her uncle Huan in The Dragon Reborn and says Huan kept going back into a burning building as long as there were people trapped inside, then she asks if he would do that too. It seemed like foreshadowing to me. Of course, Huan died in the fire and we know Mat won't in the ToG.

 

Remember that Moiraine made absolutely clear to Thom not to bring this up to Mat if it will get in the way of his duties toward the Last Battle. She did not want to risk his failing to rescue her and as a result be unable to aid Rand. This means that whatever Moiraine saw for herself and Mat, it had nothing to do with the Last Battle itself. Her end game is after the end game. Of course, Mat is going there early so things will come out different - they just won't be as Moiraine expected. I think she just made a sacrifice to get Lanfear out of the picture because if she did not then Rand was most likely going to turn to the Shadow.

 

So, Moiraine only did it to remove Lanfear from the picture. She also happened to see a way to be rescued, so she wrote Thom a letter. She made clear it wasn't to happen until after the Last Battle because of Mat's duty, but that Mat would be required in the rescue attempt for it to succeed. I think simply put that's all there was to it.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It didnt say anything about being after the last battle, all she said was that Mat must ask to see the letter for it to be sucessful.  She knew full well the hundreds if not thousands of circumstances that could occur, and knew how it could succeed. She is just putting as much information as she can into the letter to maximize their chances.

 

As for her planning Mat's actions, I dont think so. She saw that Mat would (could, at least) go with Thom and the "thrid man" to rescue her, she didnt need to set it up, for the pattern already did it, she just helped Thom with the letter.

 

Also, Moiraine will have to be rescued, Min's viewings say it, unless the DO is actually going to win TG haha.

[Luckers]

The reason I’m saying this is because Moiraine was shown all the possible futures. She learns what steps must be taken in order to reach her goal. Basically, she has a cheat sheet on how to get an A. she has all the answers.

 

No, she doesn't. The Rhuidean Rings don't work like that. She was shown all the possible futures, but she forgot most of them in turn. She will remember some of those things as they occur, but conciously she only knew a few things.

[DemandredFO]

I was beat to Min's Viewing and besides Moraine's just too cool not to get out, get healed and take out another foresaken or an important dreadlord.

[MikeRiley]

It didnt say anything about being after the last battle, all she said was that Mat must ask to see the letter for it to be sucessful. 

 

I know Mat had to ask to see the letter first but I'm almost certain she had a disclaimer saying the rescue attempt must not get in the way of Mat's duty to Rand.

[Barid Bel Medar]

It didnt say anything about being after the last battle, all she said was that Mat must ask to see the letter for it to be sucessful. 

 

I know Mat had to ask to see the letter first but I'm almost certain she had a disclaimer saying the rescue attempt must not get in the way of Mat's duty to Rand.

 

Sorry, but you are mistaken, here is the letter.

 

    My dearest Thom,

 

    There are many words I would like to write to you, words from my heart, but I have put this off because I knew that I must, and now there is little time. There are many things I cannot tell you lest I bring disaster, but what I can, I will. Heed carefully what I say. In a short while I will go down to the docks, and there I will confront Lanfear. How can I know that? That secret belongs to others. Suffice it that I know, and let that foreknowledge stand as proof for the rest of what I say.

 

    When you receive this, you will be told that I am dead. All will believe that. I am not dead, and it may be that I shall live to my appointed years. It also may be that you and Mat Cauthon and another, a man I do not know, will try to rescue me. May, I say because it may be that you will not or cannot, or because Mat may refuse. He does not hold me in the affection you seem to, and he has his reasons which he no doubt thinks are good. If you try, it must be only you and Mat and one other. More will mean death for all. Fewer will mean death for all. Even if you come only with Mat and one other, death also may come. I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives.

 

    Should you decide to make the attempt anyway, young Mat knows the way to find me, yet you must not show him this letter until he asks about it. That is of the utmost importance. He must know nothing that is in this letter until he asks. Events must play out in certain ways, whatever the costs.

 

    If you see Lan again, tell him that all of this is for the best. His destiny follows a different path from mine. I wish him all happiness with Nynaeve.

 

    A final point. Remember what you know about the game of Snakes and Foxes. Remember, and heed.

 

    It is time, and I must do what must be done.

 

    May the Light illumine you and give you joy, my dearest Thom, whether or not we ever see one another again.

 

 

It is just Moiraine setting out the possible conditions for her rescue, I think this letter would be one thing she saw as important in the rings, for in the future that she is rescued, the letter is present. So basically i think she was just doing what must be done.

[KefkaPalazzo]

I doubt it.  Moiraine said, and I quote "I saw nothing past the docks at Cairhien".  We KNOW this to be true, since she is obviously not Black Ajah.  This whole thing was a contingency plan, like Aes Sedai are experts at. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

I doubt it.  Moiraine said, and I quote "I saw nothing past the docks at Cairhien".  We KNOW this to be true, since she is obviously not Black Ajah.  This whole thing was a contingency plan, like Aes Sedai are experts at. 

 

That was events regarding Rand. She says in this letter

 

I have seen you try and die, one or two or all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen all of us live and die as captives.

 

She knows that these are the possibilities regarding her rescue, if she isnt lying about your quote, then it is no lie.

 

But its out of context anyway, she saw nothing of Rand beyond the docks, and even in her letter she says she has one more thing that does not include him.

[MikeRiley]

Sorry, but you are mistaken, here is the letter.

 

It seems I was. I still don't think Moiraine would have Mat come to her if it means taking him from his duty to Rand, and she saw him fail too.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sorry, but you are mistaken, here is the letter.

 

It seems I was. I still don't think Moiraine would have Mat come to her if it means taking him from his duty to Rand, and she saw him fail too.

 

You are right in that I think, but as it says in the letter, she did not want to say much lest it bring disaster, so maybe if she had said "no dont come" there would have been serious implications. OH well, we should find out in ToM atleast.

[DemandredFO]

The thing I don't know that Moraine saw Mat or Perrin's place in the pattern.  Verin did but as to whether that was because of BA or just curiosity we don't.  However, I don't Moraine saw his place

[MikeRiley]

Moiraine understood that Mat and Perrin were important to Rand's success as far back as The Dragon Reborn. She comes to this conclusion after the grey men attack Perrin in that village while they were following Rand to Tear.

[Duskfire]

The thing I don't know that Moraine saw Mat or Perrin's place in the pattern.  Verin did but as to whether that was because of BA or just curiosity we don't.  However, I don't Moraine saw his place

 

Yeah originally she didn't see their importance at all. I remember after Falme when Mat lay almost dying as a result of the dagger she thought to herself how his usefulness was over now that he blew the Horn. However, by the end of TDR she does realise they are important, just not how.

[Tommatt]

I really think its more,

Moraine saw her futures.  Knew that her and Lanfear going through was the best for the world.  She may get saved, but whether or not, her dying was the less of 3 evils.  Yet she knows she can be saved.  Plus most likely Min told her a viewing about her and Thom.  Which means if she doesn't get rescued, the pattern is going against its will, IE the dark one won because Min's viewing is incorect. 

 

So we know she'll be saved, as "the last american Virgin" is the only story I have ever seen in any form, where the "bad guy" won.  So whether Rand lives or dies, the dark one will be forgotten, and an age will come again.  Unless he changes that.  So the same as Elaynes babies, no matter what she does they will be born unless the dark one wins, even if that means being held prisoner, beaten, and executed right there after.  The only thing to really read into on Moraine is if Min really had a vision of her and Thom making her know she'll survive and its the only way the "light" wins, or if the Finns can affect things outside the pattern, therefore discounting Min's visions.

 

A large part of that comes from the assumption Min told Moraine of a vision of her and Thom.  But still, at the base, Moraines actions come from knowing she had to kill Lanfear by going through.  All the other possibilities implied the dark one winning, from what I gather at least

[MikeRiley]

The only thing to really read into on Moraine is if Min really had a vision of her and Thom making her know she'll survive and its the only way the "light" wins, or if the Finns can affect things outside the pattern, therefore discounting Min's visions.

 

This is the only part I'm not really following. It seems backwards to me. Moiraine being rescued wouldn't be the only way the Light wins.. The only way she'll be rescued is if the Dark One doesn't win. The two probably have nothing in common beyond that.

 

Also, random side note on that: Min's mother was a finn (and her father stank of elderberries). When Mat spoke with the Finns in The Dragon Reborn, they looked above him before answering his questions, as if reading something. They have Min's skill of being able to read the pattern.

[Mr Ares]

Also, random side note on that: Min's mother was a finn (and her father stank of elderberries). When Mat spoke with the Finns in The Dragon Reborn, they looked above him before answering his questions, as if reading something. They have Min's skill of being able to read the pattern.

Some idiot called Robert Jordan disagrees with this. What does he know?

Week 1 Question: Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

I fart in your general direction. Now go away, or I shall taunt you again.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I reckon Mat is going to get stuck in Finnland whilst saving Moraine. I know we know he isn't going to die because of the outrigger novels, and why were we ever told about those, but whose to say he won't stay behind or get trapped behind to save Moraine.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I reckon Mat is going to get stuck in Finnland whilst saving Moraine. I know we know he isn't going to die because of the outrigger novels, and why were we ever told about those, but whose to say he won't stay behind or get trapped behind to save Moraine.

 

Rand needs Mat along with Perrin to win TG, if he gets trapped, they lose.

[Sid]

The idea of Moiraine knowing everything that can happen just doesn't seem right to me.  I think of the hundreds of Shaido Wise Ones that went through those same glass columns (not including Sevahna of course) and I can't believe that none of them would have tried doing something about avoiding their current situation if that was the case.  I can't recall a single hint that they knew that they had to begrudgingly follow her ways to disaster and eventual capture by the Seanchan or all was lost, or something like that.

 

 

[MikeRiley]

I reckon Mat is going to get stuck in Finnland whilst saving Moraine. I know we know he isn't going to die because of the outrigger novels, and why were we ever told about those, but whose to say he won't stay behind or get trapped behind to save Moraine.

 

Any chance he was trying to throw us off? The one big spoiler I can think of that he gave away was that Mat would survive the Last Battle and so the Last Battle would be won. What if there was no plan for an outrigger and Mat's going to die?

[TheBeerPatriot]

I reckon Mat is going to get stuck in Finnland whilst saving Moraine. I know we know he isn't going to die because of the outrigger novels, and why were we ever told about those, but whose to say he won't stay behind or get trapped behind to save Moraine.

 

Any chance he was trying to throw us off? The one big spoiler I can think of that he gave away was that Mat would survive the Last Battle and so the Last Battle would be won. What if there was no plan for an outrigger and Mat's going to die?

I don't think RJ would throw us off like that, I think Mat survives.  However, it's possible he'll get trapped in the Tower.  I wonder if this is the part where "giving up half the light of the world to save the world" comes into play here?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I reckon Mat is going to get stuck in Finnland whilst saving Moraine. I know we know he isn't going to die because of the outrigger novels, and why were we ever told about those, but whose to say he won't stay behind or get trapped behind to save Moraine.

 

Any chance he was trying to throw us off? The one big spoiler I can think of that he gave away was that Mat would survive the Last Battle and so the Last Battle would be won. What if there was no plan for an outrigger and Mat's going to die?

I don't think RJ would throw us off like that, I think Mat survives.  However, it's possible he'll get trapped in the Tower.  I wonder if this is the part where "giving up half the light of the world to save the world" comes into play here?

 

It may be that he is trapped for a while, but he needs to be at TG for Rand to win, the whole thing about Min and the fireflies. It is the same with Moiraine, although a different viewing, Min sees that Rand needs her to win TG, when everyone thinks she is dead. So i highly doubt she wont be rescued, and that Mat wont escape with her. It seems ridiculous that there is this whole thing about the 3 ta'veren and how they are connected and what not, then Mat goes and gets trapped by the Finns for TG. I just dont see it happening

[ram-bhat]

I strongly believe that Mat gives up one eye in the TOG. The previous time he met the Foxes, he did not negotiate the price - this implies that he would need to bargain and give something to free Moraine. giving up half the world to save the world obviously is giving up an eye, as seen by Egwene - Mat holding a balance with one eye on it.

 

I am not clear about why only three people are needed - Thom obviously, as he knows the game snakes and foxes, and knows that one must break the rules to win. The third person would probably help in breaking the rules?!

 

Ram

[Dida]

I think that Moiraine and the 3 man rescue through the ToG has more to it.

 

...

 

Now, I think the three men are necessary but for different purposes.

1. I think the whole point was that Mat had to go into Finnland via the ToG. Something big is going to happen. Giving up half the light of the world to save the other half may happen here.

2. Thom and the unknown man are necessary to Moiraine being rescued and them all escaping.

3. If the third man is Noal, and if Noal is Jain Farstrider, I can see him as a valuable commodity for a hostage exchange.

4. The Letter does not state that all 4 of them have to leave. It only states that the 3 men must come.

 

 Response to #1, #2 - When three individuals previously visited the Aelfinn through the door in Tear, two were Ta'veren and Moiraine I believe should be considered a 'Hero'.  The Aelfinn ended up giving Mat more than three answers, because of Rand's additional Ta'veren-ness being present in the same general area as Mat's Tav'eren-ness.

 

    Now when three individuals enter the Tower of Ghenjei to save Moiraine & possibly Lanfear, they are going to have a 'Hero' in the person of Thom, one Ta'veren in the person of Mat, and an unknown man.  An unknown man, whom I suspect needs to be more that a simple 'Hero' but another unknown Ta'veren.

 

   

     Why?  Because putting two Ta'veren in an area together messes up how other individuals act more than a single Ta'veren would.  This can be seen when even the Aelfinn were manipulated to act differently by Rand & Mat, as was even Loial manipulated to speak his true feelings about Erith & marriage once before by Rand & Perrin.  Ta'veren-ness matters.  

 

 

     Even the Eelfinn whom hold Moiraine and likely Lanfear should be effected if a second Ta'veren came along with Thom and Mat.  Unfortunately, Mat learned first hand what having only one Ta'veren versus having two Tav'eren can lead to; a hanging outside the Eelfinn's doorway versus being thrown out the Aelfinn's door.  

 

 

 

   Here is Loial's explanation of Ta'veren to Rand very early in the series:

 

 

“Ta’veren,” Loial said.

 

Rand blinked. “What?”

 

“Ta’veren.” Loial rubbed behind a pointed ear with one blunt finger and gave a little shrug. “Elder Haman always said I never listened, but sometimes I did. Sometimes, I listened. You know how the Pattern is woven, of course?”

 

“I never really thought about it,” he said slowly. “It just is.”

 

“Um, yes, well. Not exactly. You see, the Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won’t accept a big change, no matter how hard you try. You understand?”

 

Rand nodded. “I could live on the farm or in Emond’s Field, and that would be a small change. If I wanted to be a king, though . . . ” He laughed, and Loial gave a grin that almost split his face in two. His teeth were white, and as broad as chisels.

 

“Yes, that’s it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta’veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web—ta’maral’ailen, it’s called—can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta’veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose.” He let out a booming chuckle.

 

 

The Eye of the World, Chapter 36 "Web of the Pattern" - Rand point of view with Loial in Caemlyn at the Queen's Blessing Inn

 

 

  In case, one suspects I'm totally making up the possibility of there being a fourth Ta'veren idea, I did not.   Birgitte who was ripped out of the 3rd Constant by Moghedien, considers this very possibility once before in Caemlyn with Elayne & Sareitha present:

 

“Unless there’s a ta’veren trotting around we don’t know about,” she replied dryly."  

 

Winter's Heart, Chapter 7 "The Streets of Caemlyn" - Elayne point of view

 

  The possibility of unknown Ta'veren yet to be introduced into the story.  Birgitte unlike regular people, has information about Hero's and Ta'veren which no one else has.  Yet to disclose this information would expose her own unique background & birth to others.  Yes, I believe Birgitte knows there is a fourth Ta'veren trotting around, whom she has already met previously.      

 

   How much do the Precepts govern Birgitte's actions even now in the Physical World?

 

   Birgitte's own story arc in the next two books, should see her address this background & knowledge with Egwene al'Vere.  The Amrylin Seat has wondered about Birgitte presents since at least tSR, Chapter 11 and tFoH, Chapter 24.    

 

   Yes, Birgitte has been an under discussed character overall on the various forum message boards in my view.    

 

 

B.T.W. - Do I really have to say whom that fourth Ta'veren might be?  :-X

 

 

         Okay here is a hint, this man is known to have said this sentence to another Ta'veren: "I feel almost like a ta'veren, the way things are falling out."

 

 

 

Response to #4 - The Letter does not even mention the possibility of Lanfear leaving alive either. Yet Mat's thoughts in KoD & tGS suggest, he would indeed try to save Lanfear if she was trapped there too.