The Amyrlin's Anger

[Duskfire]

Also we really wouldn't have a series if LTT had found a way besides the two choices we've been told he had.  If the possibility of TG being resolved without annihilation of the pattern or simply a repeat of sealing the bore remain open now in the third age, I can't see how you could rule out the possibility of a better solution for LTT in the AoL.

 

And what solution would that be? The Light was on the verge of defeat. This was a last ditch effort. There was nothing else. If Lews Therin and the others hadn't done what they did the Dark One would have been released. The difference between this Age and the last is there's much less bad guys, Rand himself is better equipped due to having Lews Therins memories, and theres two other ta`veren to shoulder the burden.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Firstly, Sorry farthammer, i re-read my post, it was a bit snippy, no offence intended, i am just frustrated (not at you, jsut in general today) and it is annoying when i have already adressed things.

 

 

didnt one of the forsaken forsake the light because of jealousy and the fact that LTT kept heaping rewards and titles upon him which made him angrier and jealouser.

 

LTT was one hell of a leader, much better than his contemporary (but this is because of different stresses LTT didnt have until late in his life when he knew somewhat how to deal with it)

 

contemporary AS are fools, that is fact and I dont think anyone will argue. Although we have seen a few great ones rise about from AS ranks, those being Moraine, Suian, Cadsuane, Elayne, Nynaeve, (and personnally I hate to admit it) Egwene.

 

now as for the fact of betrayals, LTT had it the worst and there was literally nothign he could do to stop them since the DO was almost loose and could almost directly wisper his poison into the ears of the people. Now as for contemporary AS they are hearing the poison through a friend of a friend so to speak, and most of them are naturally evil or cruel, the thing that bothers me is how terrible the leadership was that they didnt suspect or start searchign for the disease that is the BA, hell they even had a binder and where using it all the time. Personnally I think that some of the forsaken started the WT and purposefully made sure that no oath about folloowing the DO made it into the 3 oaths

 

Yes, I agree with most of it. All of it about LTT, the betrayals of Demandred and Sammael (the only personal ones) were because they were jealous that LTT was so much better than them. (and Bel'al is called "the Enveous")

 

Also you hit it on the head with the other betrayals, its unrealistic to think that LTT could stop that kind of thing, the DO whispering poision promises of Immortality and wealth beyond measure, really, there is no way to stop that.

 

What do you expect him to say "Oh, no. dont listen, the DO is lying. Follow me, we are fighting a losing battle and I cant give you immortality or wealth or power...but the DO is bad...so dont follow him..."

[farthammer]

Well you addressed those points by saying they are the only reasons and it's unlikely that is the case.  Unless you think they felt an amazing compulsion instantly, those types of attitudes are cultivated over longer time periods.  Just about everything involving the shadow revolved around LTT in some form or another, as he was the single most powerful person in that world.  He was described as being arrogant on top of it, so of course you're going to have all these other men trying to knock him off even if it's not rooted in evil.  Some of that could have been avoided, in the way that military leaders need to inspire loyalty and confidence.  

 

I didn't answer your other questions because we don't have enough information to do anything other than speculate answers.   To defeat someone lusting after power you remove the reasons they want that power.  One way involves killing that person directly, or another removing anything such people would be interested in having power over from the board.  

 

Anyway it feels like I'm arguing against someone who is reading my posts and thinking I am trying to toss aside all the reasons we know some of the forsaken went over, and insert new ones.  People are a little more complicated than that though, thought it'd be interesting to explore some of the things that aren't fleshed out well at all in the series for some fun.  Dunno what th eproblem is.

 

 

And what solution would that be? The Light was on the verge of defeat. This was a last ditch effort. There was nothing else. If Lews Therin and the others hadn't done what they did the Dark One would have been released. The difference between this Age and the last is there's much less bad guys, Rand himself is better equipped due to having Lews Therins memories, and theres two other ta`veren to shoulder the burden.

 

I think if anyone could answer this with confidence we'd also know how Rand will defeat the shadow.  So it'll just have to wait.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Lets now see who actually defeated them and how.

 

1. Be'lal - Moiraine sneaked up and BF him.

2. Lanfear, again, sneaked up and pushed her through the doorway.

3. Mog. She was an arrogant fool and Nynaeve did well and beat her. (but Mog, was never one for outright combat, she would never blunder like that against her "equals")

4. Semi- She was taken down by a host of channelers, Cads, Nynaeve, Logain, the AM.

The rest were destroyed by Rand, LTT reborn.

 

In light of that, really, how great has AS been? Luck and Rand destroyed the Forsaken. (except Nynaeve, shes good, but thats 1 person.)

 

So really, there is no way you can compare LTT to modern AS, he was so far above them its not funny.

 

Bathamael was defeated by Somasheta

Aginor was killed because he drew too much of the OP

Ishamael was killed by Rand

Bel'al was balefired out of mundane existance by Moiraine

Moghedien was beaten by Nynaeve TWICE

Asmodean was beaten by Rand and killed by some random unknown person

Lanfear was killed by Moiraine

Rahvin was balefired by Rand

Sammael was consumed by Mashadar

O'sangar was killed by Elza

Semirhage was taken down by Nynaeve and Cadsuane and a few Asha'man, then Balefired by Rand.

 

4/12 for Rand

Dismal for an exalted Channeler of the 2nd Age who supposedly has far more experience and ability than Moiraine or Nynaeve.

I noticed that Elza also has one kill under her belt.  Which is comparable to Rand's four.

[Lambada]

Has this thread not gone wildly off topic?

 

I just caught up with this thread and in two whole pages there was not one mention of the real topic of this thread.

 

So: Has anyone got any new theories on the Amyrlins anger?

[Jeangray]

Well, it is part and parcel of being a good leader to assemble a loyal and capable team. LTT failed there, despite having a huge advantage of being the strongest ta'veren ever. He promoted the wrong people, he missed the personality traits that could have warned him of folks liable to turn to the Shadow (not just with Demandred and Sammael, but also with Ishamael, Bel'al and Lanfear, whom he knew personally), etc.

 

We also don't know if LTT's plan of sealing was the best possible one and if the taint was inevitable. At the time he and companions implemented it, perhaps there was nothing else to be done, but a few years earlier?

Maybe if LTT didn't stick to this plan so stubbornly, some third solution could have been sought. And yes, he should have bloody had been aware of possible side-effects.

He had superior knowledge of channeling, metaphysics and knew about existence of TP. He knew that he was going to directly touch DO with the OP weave.

 

And what, tons of excuses why the 3rd agers were vastly better at dealing with FS? Moiraine "sneaked" on them, LOL? It is not a sports event, you look for tactics that work, not for some ridiculous mano-y-mano. She used the tools that were also at LTT's disposal, as the Rings are an AoL ter'angreal. And yes, there were 29 FS once, but according to RJ most of them died by the hands of their fellows, not forces of Light.

So, yea, that famous AoL training and skill don't really stand up to scrutiny. 

 

Now, I am not saying that LTT wasn't a great man, but he made many mistakes. And IMHO hatred and contempt for the 3rd age AS is vastly overblown. Only 1/5 of them are DFs, after all, as opposed to half during the War of the Shadow and LTT's tenure. And for an organization that has been sabotaged by Ishy and his DFs for 2 millenia, they have done decently. Not great, but not as terribly as lot of you folks seem to think ;).

How was betrayal of Manetheren worse than the betrayals that gave Ishamael and Sammael their names? And fall of Malkier was due to very sudden internal betrayal that left the WT no time to react (as the Shadow had planned, no doubt).   

 

 

BTW, LTT's title as leader of the AS was "First among the Servants", not (T)Amyrlin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Of course LTT made mistakes.

 

 

But the betrayals were only because he was brilliant, they were jealous or some personal hatred, thats not his fault.

 

You say that LTT promoted people? Of course he would, they were brilliant, Demandred and Sammael, so he put them to use, as any sane person would. WHo said that he missed their personality traits? Who said they showed any to outward appearances. If LTT failed there, so have the AS, many key figures have been BA throughout the history of the tower, yet they didnt find out until recently, so really, you cant say AS have done better.

 

 

If you have read about the sealing, you cant ignore the fact that THE SHADOW WAS ABOUT TO WIN. THey didnt have time to prattle like schoolgirls trying to figure out another method of sealing the bore (and if you say it wouldnt take a lot of time, your kidding yourself). The point was, the shadow had nearly won, the light was about to fall, they didnt have time to think up new plans, so LTT did what he could,  he knew it would be risky, but as Asmodean said, when your falling off a cliff, you reach for the blade of grass, even though its most likely it will give way.

 

At the time he and companions implemented it, perhaps there was nothing else to be done, but a few years earlier?

 

They were fighting a war, they didnt have time to sit around thinking of ways to seal the bore. WHen the shadow attacked, the AoL'ers didnt even know who/what the DO was. The war lasted 10 years or so (IIRC), how on earth could they fight a war against an unknown enemy who has created entirely new forces (shadowspawn), really, how the hell are they expected to find out what the DO was, and how to seal him effectively in 10 years. That they managed to come up with two plans at all was miraculous. The plan to seal the bore wasnt addressed until the last few months of the war, so how can you say he was stubborn about it and prevented further research? That is what they were researching.

 

Unless you think they could have come up with an entirely different plan in the course of a few months, LTT did the right thing. I think you may want to read the BWB, you seem to think LTT had 100 years to prance around talking and researching.

 

 

AS for 3rd agers being better than FS, Moiraine did sneak up on them, she didnt go, Oh, lets go through the rings in rhuidean to see how to kill some forsaken, any idiot could have killed Bel'al like she did. It was effective, I agree, but she wasnt fighting a war, she was assassinating someone. It was a little harder in the AoL, the DO influence and strength was a lot stronger than it is at the current point, they had whole territories under their control, Bel'al only had the Stone of Tear, and even then he didnt really command any vast military might. LTT would have had to send assassins into enemy territorries (where anyone, even children would report any suspicious characters) through masses of trollocs and human armies to get to one of the FS, its not the same as sneaking into the stone where Bel'al was hiding, luring rand to take callendor and then BF while he was distracted.

 

yes, Nynaeve did beat Mog. 2wice, she is stronger, but thats only because Mog. was arrogant, in the AoL SHE WOULD NEVER HAVE ATTACKED SO OPENLY. She remains hidden mostly, its only because she was a fool thhat she managed to get into that mess.

 

But even still, there are 2 examples, if tenuous, two AS out of how many? over 1000? Really, thats not a good indication of the Towers strengh. Also, you seemed to ignore the fact that the Forsaken werent slinking around like they are now. They were at WAR, they had millions of Trollocs (not just holed up in a blight like now), they controlled half of the world, without fear of having to disguise themselves. Really, it was a whole different ball game.

 

Only 1/5 of them are DFs, after all, as opposed to half during the War of the Shadow and LTT's tenure.

 

Could you provide a quote for this, or any evidence saying that half of the AS from AoL were DF?

 

 

Now I am not saying that the AS are the worst organization in the world, but really, if LTT were there, he would run circles around them.

 

 

So really, LTT knowledge of the OP was vastly superior to that of the current AS, he was fighting a losing battle against a virutally unknown enemy who had waged all out war and controlled half of the world. The Tower, while not entirely incompetent, were split by the BA and Messaana without the help of any invading armies of trollocs and the DO is not even nearly as free as he was in the AoL, comparing how the AS are doing throughout history to LTT while he was fighting a war against the Shadow is like comparing  climbing a hill to climbing Mt. Everest. The AS have hardly been troubled compared to LTT. He was actually at war with a force that actually wanted to destroy them

 

The tower hasnt been at war with anyone, they have help out in petty wars (10,000 soliders or so) and did decently in the Trolloc Wars (although the land was pretty ruined) but the Trolloc Wars didnt have a scratch on the War of Power.

 

Theres only two times when the Tower has actually been at war by itself, not just behind the scences

1. When Hawkwing invaded. They were getting pretty destroyed, all holed up in TV, annd only managed to escape when his second wife calmed him down and he eventually died.

 

2. When it was at war with itself. In the books, the split in the tower. There not even fighting against the shadow (really) yet, and they still fall to pieces, and need a 18yo girl who has only 2 years before left a village the size of the novice quarters to tell them to get their act together.

 

Anyway, what Im saying is, your right, the AS arnt really that bad, but comparing them to LTT, and thinking that they would do BETTER? Really, what is the Tower paying you? No-one in their right mind would actually think that, in LTT position, they would have done any better.

 

Its like saying a housecat could hunt a wilderbeast more effectively than a lion.

[StringWinder]

You'd think in that mssive post you could have at least mentioned Egwene...

[farthammer]

I think he has an erection over LTT.  Actually I don't think I've ever seen someone become a sycophant for a historical figure in a fantasy world before.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think he has an erection over LTT.  Actually I don't think I've ever seen someone become a sycophant for a historical figure in a fantasy world before.

 

 

Uncalled for. But i suppose, for someone whos name is "farthammer" i shouldnt be suprised.

 

Besides, I was arguing a point, this is where you post opinions of WoT history, I express mine, I dont see what is wrong.

 

Really, I dont know why your even on here, you argue your point, and when your wrong, are reduced to calling people names and insulting them. Admit you are wrong and accept it, dont act like a child who cant get what they want and throw a tantrum.

Get a life.

[farthammer]

Lol I'm not throwing a tantrum but people are asking to get the thread back on topic so SHUT UP ABOUT LTT

[Majsju]

Discuss the topic, not eachother. This behaviour is not acceptable.

[Lambada]

In a last-ditch attempt to get this back on topic I shall attempt to summarise the theories I have seen

 

1) Egwene will berate Rand for either

    a) Letting AS be bonded by Asha'men

    b) Not keeping an eye on the Black Tower

    c) Trying to negotiate peace with the Seanchan

    d) All of the above

 

2) Rand and Egwene now have things in common such as

    a) Anger at being locked in a box

    b) Anger at being collared

  Hence their anger is shared and thus known

 

(My personal favourite next)

3) Rand understands the difference between how Egwene handled her anger (cool, focused, channeled into something) versus Rands method (bottling it until it explodes out at something / someone).

 

Any others / new criticisms of the above?

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

In a last-ditch attempt to get this back on topic I shall attempt to summarise the theories I have seen

 

1) Egwene will berate Rand for either

    a) Letting AS be bonded by Asha'men

    b) Not keeping an eye on the Black Tower

    c) Trying to negotiate peace with the Seanchan

    d) All of the above

 

2) Rand and Egwene now have things in common such as

    a) Anger at being locked in a box

    b) Anger at being collared

   Hence their anger is shared and thus known

 

(My personal favourite next)

3) Rand understands the difference between how Egwene handled her anger (cool, focused, channeled into something) versus Rands method (bottling it until it explodes out at something / someone).

 

Any others / new criticisms of the above?

 

 

I agree, I like your personal favorite, seems a good interpretation, if not that, I am inclined to go with 2)a.

2B was kninda Egwene knowing Rand's anger, because it happened to him first (techniccal i know, but it does say "know the Amyrlin's anger")

 

But as far as possibility goes, I think all of them are possible, I dont think there is any evidence to rule out any of these, so i guess its RAFO haha :P

[Jeangray]

But the betrayals were only because he was brilliant, they were jealous or some personal hatred, thats not his fault.

 

Sigh. Of course management of subordinates and keeping them loyal _is_ leader's responsibility. Inability to do so is a flaw and an even bigger flaw in a ta'veren who mostly has things going his way without lifting a finger  anyway.

 

If you have read about the sealing, you cant ignore the fact that THE SHADOW WAS ABOUT TO WIN.

 

The Bore has been open for 110 years and various methods of closing it have been debated for decades (see the BwB). The tug-of-war between LTT's and Posae's teams went on for years, if not for decades.

LTT did have enough time to carefully consider possible side-effects of his method or to look for something else - but he was too sure that he, the greatest man of his time, couldn't be wrong. IMHO, of course. But let's not forget that even Rand after his epiphany thought that, as LTT, he had been wrong, that he had failed, that he could have done better.  

 

any idiot could have killed Bel'al like she did.

 

Sigh. So, why didn't they? Also, Moiraine did call out to Bel'al and he even managed to evil monologue at her a bit. She didn't stab him in the back, as it were, he was looking right at her as he was balefired.

 

Also, in battle, rather than in sporting event or whatever, you use what works. Rand mostly used rather unsophisticated stuff against the FS too and was only able to take most of them with help of others and advantage of  angrael/sa'angreal, but so what? LTT and his crew, oh, so much more skilled and knowledgeable, didn't even come close

 

yes, Nynaeve did beat Mog. 2wice, she is stronger, but thats only because Mog. was arrogant

 

Actually, Nynaeve was exactly the same strength as Mog. when they tangled and barely trained either in OP usage or in T'AR usage. That only goes to show you how far the vaunted AoL training, skills and knowledge go. And if it is that way with FS, it follows that LTT wouldn't fare much better, as he didn't do too well against them.  

 

Could you provide a quote for this, or any evidence saying that half of the AS from AoL were DF?

 

It is in BwB, I think.

 

Now I am not saying that the AS are the worst organization in the world, but really, if LTT were there, he would run circles around them.

 

Show me an AS who had LTT's resources (including being, like the strongest ta'veren ever) and we shall talk. Given all his advantages, LTT didn't do much better than them, IMHO.

 

Anyway, I have said already in this thread that Egwene does have stuff to be legitimately angry at Rand for. His handling of the Black Tower and inviting SAS to go there when he has been told that Taim is a DF, certainly deserves it.

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

In a last-ditch attempt to get this back on topic I shall attempt to summarise the theories I have seen

 

1) Egwene will berate Rand for either

    a) Letting AS be bonded by Asha'men

    b) Not keeping an eye on the Black Tower

    c) Trying to negotiate peace with the Seanchan

    d) All of the above

 

2) Rand and Egwene now have things in common such as

    a) Anger at being locked in a box

    b) Anger at being collared

   Hence their anger is shared and thus known

 

(My personal favourite next)

3) Rand understands the difference between how Egwene handled her anger (cool, focused, channeled into something) versus Rands method (bottling it until it explodes out at something / someone).

 

Any others / new criticisms of the above?

 

 

I think it will be a part of Rands negotiations with the Seanchan - him dropping his demand that the Seanchan must stop collaring women. We know that damane is the one thing that can make Egwene snap, and the attack on the WT hardly helped her there.

[Jeangray]

 

I think it will be a part of Rands negotiations with the Seanchan - him dropping his demand that the Seanchan must stop collaring women.

 

Or killing male channelers? I really don't see how any useful cooperation with Seanchan could be possible if they continue as before. Channelers are going to be in command of and/or important part of Rand's forces, after all.

 

Also, there is Egwene's dream where she confronts Rand and one of the women with her is a Seanchan. I somehow doubt that it is going to be Egeanin or a former damane.

In fact, it is time for other TR people to step up and do something significant in preparation  for TG - IMHO it would fit if Mat, Perrin and Egwene between them secured the Seanchan alliance for Rand ;).

 

No, the Black Tower, what with recruiting 12-year-old boys and teaching them to channel tainted saidin, not to mention giving a rather obvious DF the direction of it, is a much more likely cause for Egwene's anger. The fact that Logain's people are keeping their forcibly bonded AS under cour'sourva-like Compulsion even after they ceased to be a danger won't help either, nor whatever happened to all those SAS whom Rand invited to visit. 

 

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Lets now see who actually defeated them and how.

 

1. Be'lal - Moiraine sneaked up and BF him.

2. Lanfear, again, sneaked up and pushed her through the doorway.

3. Mog. She was an arrogant fool and Nynaeve did well and beat her. (but Mog, was never one for outright combat, she would never blunder like that against her "equals")

4. Semi- She was taken down by a host of channelers, Cads, Nynaeve, Logain, the AM.

The rest were destroyed by Rand, LTT reborn.

 

In light of that, really, how great has AS been? Luck and Rand destroyed the Forsaken. (except Nynaeve, shes good, but thats 1 person.)

 

So really, there is no way you can compare LTT to modern AS, he was so far above them its not funny.

 

Bathamael was defeated by Somasheta

Aginor was killed because he drew too much of the OP

Ishamael was killed by Rand

Bel'al was balefired out of mundane existance by Moiraine

Moghedien was beaten by Nynaeve TWICE

Asmodean was beaten by Rand and killed by some random unknown person

Lanfear was killed by Moiraine

Rahvin was balefired by Rand

Sammael was consumed by Mashadar

O'sangar was killed by Elza

Semirhage was taken down by Nynaeve and Cadsuane and a few Asha'man, then Balefired by Rand.

 

4/12 for Rand

Dismal for an exalted Channeler of the 2nd Age who supposedly has far more experience and ability than Moiraine or Nynaeve.

I noticed that Elza also has one kill under her belt.  Which is comparable to Rand's four.

 

Just shows you how far LTT's vaunted knowledge has brought him so far in terms of defeating forsaken, Berid.

 

Moiraine did NOT sneak up on Bel'al.  Bel'al had plenty of warning after she shouted at him.  But Moiraine owned him to the ground first.

 

Nynaeve and Moghedien were the same strength at TSR.  Yes, Mog was arrogant.  But the same could be said for the remainder of the Forsaken.

 

Back to topic.

 

I prefer no. 3 of Lambada's choices, and possibly, IMO, the most likely.

[Dream]

In a last-ditch attempt to get this back on topic I shall attempt to summarise the theories I have seen

 

1) Egwene will berate Rand for either

    a) Letting AS be bonded by Asha'men

    b) Not keeping an eye on the Black Tower

    c) Trying to negotiate peace with the Seanchan

    d) All of the above

 

I don’t think a) is a legitimate reason as those AS were sent to destroy the BT.  She has a legitimate reason in b).  The BT has been spiralling out of Rand’s control and he’s been ignoring it.  If Egwene is angry about c) then she’d be wrong.  She has reason to go to war with the Seanchan but the Last Battle comes first so she should follow Rand’s lead and come to a truce.  I’d like to add another reason for her anger, allowing AS to swear an oath of fealty to him, but similar to a) these AS were out the imprison him.  Of course, my final answer will be d) All of the above.

 

(My personal favourite next)

3) Rand understands the difference between how Egwene handled her anger (cool, focused, channeled into something) versus Rands method (bottling it until it explodes out at something / someone).

 

That would depend entirely on how Egwene shows him her anger.  If she’s calm and rationale about everything then Rand should get out his pen and paper and take notes.  If she explodes on him then the opposite would be true and (new and improved) Rand would need to teach her how to control her anger (now that would be ironic).

 

 

[nolirion]

Why do you keep on the fact that a bound betwin AS and Asha'men is a bad thing ?

 

 

To me they are only benefit to those move if Egwene can't see it  she need to be spanked

[Dream]

Why do you keep on the fact that a bound betwin AS and Asha'men is a bad thing ?

 

 

To me they are only benefit to those move if Egwene can't see it  she need to be spanked

Bonding by itself isn't a bad thing, and can actually be a good thing.

 

Bonding without permission is a bad thing.

 

[nolirion]

In the case , it act to me as a good slap in the face for The A's that was sent to destroy the tower .

And it is to me the only time it happen or I am mistaken ? 

[Jeangray]

Why do you keep on the fact that a bound betwin AS and Asha'men is a bad thing ?

 

Because:

 

Compulsion is bad - and the bonded AS are under very strong one.

They can check female channelers for DF-ness, but not male ones.

Forced bonding is bad.

It is unclear what long-term effects the taint is going to have on the men.

 

It was OK as a stop-gap measure, maybe, but it now that saidin is clean and the AS in question have no reason to attack male channelers anymore, they should be freed.

 

 

[nolirion]

Aes'Sedai don't seam that eager to make peace with the Asha'man .

I get you argument against what did The Asha'men but would you have them slaughter the AS when they did attack ?

[farthammer]

They are POW's basically and not being mistreated, the AS shouldn't get them back so easily unless they are willing to really concede something.  The AS might not have any justification for attacking the AM again with Saidin cleansed but until Elaida was ousted it's not like that would've stopped them.