A new power...

[jemron]

ˆˆBuzzkill...

 

 

 

 

 

 

j/k  This is actually my favorite stuff to theorize about, even though you're probably right.  It is just made up fantasy, which will probably never be clearly defined by Team Jordan.  Oh well, one can hope that the metaphysics of the Wheel and the actual purpose of the DO and the Creator will be a major part of the final plot and will give us more interesting answers in the actual books.  I would be content if this was just in an encyclopedia too, but I hope that there are more definitive answers in the last two books.

[Cirin]

ˆˆBuzzkill...

 

 

 

 

 

 

j/k  This is actually my favorite stuff to theorize about, even though you're probably right.  It is just made up fantasy, which will probably never be clearly defined by Team Jordan.  Oh well, one can hope that the metaphysics of the Wheel and the actual purpose of the DO and the Creator will be a major part of the final plot and will give us more interesting answers in the actual books.  I would be content if this was just in an encyclopedia too, but I hope that there are more definitive answers in the last two books.

 

Aye.  Didn't mean to kill your fun.  ;)  Just meant that we'll likely never know the answers to these sort of questions because RJ may simply have not come up with any.  Maybe he did, though, who knows?  I just think some people focus so much on the "how" and "why" sometimes that they miss out on the fact that it's supposed to be a good story, and sometimes the good stories are a little fuzzy on "how" and "why."

[FarShainMael]

It's tremendous fun to theorise on these things, but it's more than that. RJ wanted to write a good story, yes, and a good story is one that gets its readers thinking. I'd say that if that happens it becomes art - though I must warn you that I am very badly qualified to pronounce on such things, being an engineer!  ::)

 

 

[Axon]

I happen to think the Dark One's motivations, as articulated by Moridin, make no sense - why wipe the pattern? Isn't that akin to suicide? If there is no pattern there is no Dark One - or is there? Mwahahahaha

[Tom Sawyer]

I happen to think the Dark One's motivations, as articulated by Moridin, make no sense - why wipe the pattern? Isn't that akin to suicide? If there is no pattern there is no Dark One - or is there? Mwahahahaha

 

I think that the Pattern is what holds the DO in his prison.  If he breaks it, he's free and it's only people who aren't him who are *beep*, so why would he care?

 

[Durinax]

I happen to think the Dark One's motivations, as articulated by Moridin, make no sense - why wipe the pattern? Isn't that akin to suicide? If there is no pattern there is no Dark One - or is there? Mwahahahaha

 

I think that the Pattern is what holds the DO in his prison.  If he breaks it, he's free and it's only people who aren't him who are , so why would he care?

 

because existance would really suck if you where the only thing around. if nothign else exists he would be alone for eternity with nothign to do. I think what he means to do is rip the pattern enough that he can completely corrupt it destroying society and creating a basic society once again so he at least has something to watch. . . kinda like another breaking

[Cirin]

I happen to think the Dark One's motivations, as articulated by Moridin, make no sense - why wipe the pattern? Isn't that akin to suicide? If there is no pattern there is no Dark One - or is there? Mwahahahaha

 

I think that the Pattern is what holds the DO in his prison.  If he breaks it, he's free and it's only people who aren't him who are, so why would he care?

 

because existance would really suck if you where the only thing around. if nothign else exists he would be alone for eternity with nothign to do. I think what he means to do is rip the pattern enough that he can completely corrupt it destroying society and creating a basic society once again so he at least has something to watch. . . kinda like another breaking

 

He's the Dark One.  It's what he does.  Maybe he doesn't get bored?  Maybe there are other things to destroy besides the Pattern?  Their may be all sorts of patterns and universes out there for him to level.  Maybe he just wants to hang out with the Creator again, and the Creator tasked him with breaking the Pattern because the Dark One is annoying, and set the Pattern up to keep making the Dark One fail so that the Dark One would leave his creation alone?  All sorts of reasons could make him want to destroy the Pattern.

[Kaznen]

Chaos is not in itself evil.  Chaos is freedom.  To much chaos is bad/evil but so is to much order, there is little to no freedom in that kind of society.

 

Look at the Aiel, aside from a common system of mores and taboos there is little social order.  Everyone is expected to live within je'e'toh but it isn't the "law."  

 

As far as the Creator/DO axis, remember for a while Chaos was helping Rand do what he needing to do.  Because countries were at civil war and the AS were divided against themselves and trying to fix the world problems while 1 upping the other side Rand was able to move through the world with little restraint and do what he needed to do.  Then the Chaos became to much and now he needs to restore Order where before Order got in his way because everyone was watching what he was doing.

 

In that instance Order was serving the DO's purpose.

[Cirin]

Chaos is not in itself evil.  Chaos is freedom.  To much chaos is bad/evil but so is to much order, there is little to no freedom in that kind of society.

 

Look at the Aiel, aside from a common system of mores and taboos there is little social order.  Everyone is expected to live within je'e'toh but it isn't the "law."  

 

As far as the Creator/DO axis, remember for a while Chaos was helping Rand do what he needing to do.  Because countries were at civil war and the AS were divided against themselves and trying to fix the world problems while 1 upping the other side Rand was able to move through the world with little restraint and do what he needed to do.  Then the Chaos became to much and now he needs to restore Order where before Order got in his way because everyone was watching what he was doing.

 

In that instance Order was serving the DO's purpose.

 

Well, the problem with that is that it entirely depends on how you define chaos, and then how you define good or evil.  Here are the two definitions in Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary (1996): 1) Total disorder. 2) often Chaos. The disordered state existing before the creation of the ordered universe.

 

Now if chaos is total disorder, then chaos isn't freedom and neither is order - freedom is freedom.  If you're truly free to do whatever you want, then you can choose to be orderly.  Now, as you said, that doesn't necessarily mean that chaos is evil - it's just the opposite of order.  When you live in a Pattern and a Universe that relies on that order to function, though (the Age Lace), Chaos can be a bad thing for your health - and most people see threats to themselves as evil.  Their is nothing necessarily evil about wanting to kill, rape, maim, or simply obliterate everything if you look at it subjectively, either.  It's all a matter of view.  But, that's why I tend to not look at things subjectively.  :D

[Dreamwalker]

It's tremendous fun to theorise on these things, but it's more than that. RJ wanted to write a good story, yes, and a good story is one that gets its readers thinking. I'd say that if that happens it becomes art - though I must warn you that I am very badly qualified to pronounce on such things, being an engineer!  ::)

 

 

 

I completely agree - and while I'm an engineer too, I minored in art history.  ;)

But really, art is pretty much just what people decide is art - the debate on whether or not something qualifies as art is a great field of debate in the art world and has been going on for hundreds of years. I say we're all qualified to decide what is and isn't art, because ultimately that's decided by society as a whole. Then you can get into the argument of whether art and its meaning is simply the meaning that the original artist intended or if it includes the interpretations, effects, and meanings given by the audience (or in this case, people debating it on forums) - but that's another debate.

[Kaznen]

Chaos is not in itself evil.  Chaos is freedom.  To much chaos is bad/evil but so is to much order, there is little to no freedom in that kind of society.

 

Look at the Aiel, aside from a common system of mores and taboos there is little social order.  Everyone is expected to live within je'e'toh but it isn't the "law."  

 

As far as the Creator/DO axis, remember for a while Chaos was helping Rand do what he needing to do.  Because countries were at civil war and the AS were divided against themselves and trying to fix the world problems while 1 upping the other side Rand was able to move through the world with little restraint and do what he needed to do.  Then the Chaos became to much and now he needs to restore Order where before Order got in his way because everyone was watching what he was doing.

 

In that instance Order was serving the DO's purpose.

 

Well, the problem with that is that it entirely depends on how you define chaos, and then how you define good or evil.  Here are the two definitions in Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary (1996): 1) Total disorder. 2) often Chaos. The disordered state existing before the creation of the ordered universe.

 

Now if chaos is total disorder, then chaos isn't freedom and neither is order - freedom is freedom.  If you're truly free to do whatever you want, then you can choose to be orderly.  Now, as you said, that doesn't necessarily mean that chaos is evil - it's just the opposite of order.  When you live in a Pattern and a Universe that relies on that order to function, though (the Age Lace), Chaos can be a bad thing for your health - and most people see threats to themselves as evil.  Their is nothing necessarily evil about wanting to kill, rape, maim, or simply obliterate everything if you look at it subjectively, either.  It's all a matter of view.  But, that's why I tend to not look at things subjectively.  :D

You make good points and to continue on would require a whole new thread (in Debates and Discussion....*shudder*)

 

The point I'm making is the Creator and DO are so far outside human understanding as far as figuring out there motives and the non-DP believers point to forces of nature as "Good" or "Evil" when the good/evil value applied to a general population is good or evil in itself, just the amount used.

 

Now, as far as to much order being used for evil look at Stalin's Russia.  And remember Big Brother and Animal Farm where written as a commentary for Stalin's regime.

 

But, anyway, in WoT the OP and the pattern are forces of nature, neither good or evil.  But the DO is wants to destroy the forces of nature/natural order and is implying direct means through the TP.  The Creator wants to prevent that so he has a way of countering the TP with his DP.

 

This morning while I was getting ready for my day I was thinking of this thread and the non-believers pointing to Rand conversation with the Creator in tEotW.  But then I thought of something that happened earlier in the same book.

 

It was when Rand was just recovering from his channeling sickness brought by bringing a lighting bolt down in Four Kings.  He fell asleep in the back of a wagon and had the usual dreams/nightmares he'd been having about everyone else being dead.  Then there was an vision of Thom juggling and saying, "The Queen is married to land, but the Dragon, the Dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon."  

 

Since then, especially with the tGS, we've learned what that meant.  But the message Rand got seemed a bit to specific for ta'veren twisting and the resolution wasn't solved by the OP or "The Song."  

[Cirin]

It's tremendous fun to theorise on these things, but it's more than that. RJ wanted to write a good story, yes, and a good story is one that gets its readers thinking. I'd say that if that happens it becomes art - though I must warn you that I am very badly qualified to pronounce on such things, being an engineer!  ::)

 

 

 

I completely agree - and while I'm an engineer too, I minored in art history.  ;)

But really, art is pretty much just what people decide is art - the debate on whether or not something qualifies as art is a great field of debate in the art world and has been going on for hundreds of years. I say we're all qualified to decide what is and isn't art, because ultimately that's decided by society as a whole. Then you can get into the argument of whether art and its meaning is simply the meaning that the original artist intended or if it includes the interpretations, effects, and meanings given by the audience (or in this case, people debating it on forums) - but that's another debate.

 

The biggest question, though, is whether art is a suitable medium for the discussion of metaphysical principles that people then apply to our own world.  That was the biggest reason I commented.  People take principles from our world/universe/reality and apply them to a world/universe/reality that is not.  As much as the WoT follows certain physical principles and is supposed to be like our own world, it is ultimately a construct of one person's thought, and therefore it is all but impossible to have these sorts of discussions.  For all we know, the Dark One isn't evil except on Tuesdays, because there is no evil except on Tuesdays.  Now, this seems ridiculous, or illogical, etc. but in the world of anothers making, that is not real, logic is whatever that person says it is, and reality the same.  That's why I hesitate reading too much into it, as ultimately people approach the discussion as if ideas, concepts, or ideologies from our own world can be ported directly into the Wheel of Time, and they cannot.

[Hadilmir]

...But the massage Rand got seemed a...

:D

[Kaznen]

...But the massage Rand got seemed a...

:D

I fixed it.

:-[

[Hadilmir]

I fixed it.

:-[

I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the way your typo turned out.  ;)

[Vermillion]

There is no need for a new power.  The True Source is stronger than the True Power.  If TP is comparable to the male half using the Choedan Kal which does not use the total power of saidin, one half of the TS, there is no comparison.

[Kaznen]

I fixed it.

:-[

I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at the way your typo turned out.  ;)

I know but it looked...wrong.

[Kaznen]

There is no need for a new power.  The True Source is stronger than the True Power.  If TP is comparable to the male half using the Choedan Kal which does not use the total power of saidin, one half of the TS, there is no comparison.

It wasn't about the strength in the power used, it was the feeling one had while holding said power.

 

DP is the opposite of TP.  That's all it is.  But the Rand is going to need something to give him an edge against the DO. 

[saidarisnowtainted]

While we haven't seen creation via the power we have seen creation via the Voice, which is a nonchanneling ability obtained by following the way of the leaf

[saidarisnowtainted]

How can SL be part of the primary powers?  It was created by man relatively recently

[Morsker]

How can SL be part of the primary powers?  It was created by man relatively recently

 

We don't know that SL was created only by men, and not by Mordeth's supernatural influence. And we don't where Mordeth got his powers from, or how old the source is.

 

SL being created only by men doesn't make much sense. It's what the books literally say, but there have been worse atrocities in the real world, and in Wheel of Time too, and none of them cursed a city and trapped a ghost there. SL is special.

[Hadilmir]

The way I see it there should be atleast 5 major powers at work if you accept that there is a Light Power. (With multiple minor powers, of course)

 

Creation (Light Power) [Divine Power]

Destruction (Dark Power) [True Power]

Corruption (Foremost "Evil Power") [shadar Logoth Effect]

Restoration (Foremost "Good Power") [Who knows]

Continuation (Neutrality/Existence) [True Source]

 

We know that the Shadar Logoth Effect is an equally powerful yet opposite 'Evil' from Destruction, so it must be included as a major power. We know that the True Source is a major power and not opposite to Corruption because Mat's healing was not fighting Corruption, it was pushing it out, and not opposite to Destruction because the Taint did not fight or counteract Saidin. Two 'Evils' that cancel each other out and a Neutral is indeed balanced, but seems wrong. So therefore if you include a major power to counteract one of the 'Evils' you must include another for the power that it was previously counteracting.

 

That's all, and no. I don't believe a word of this post.  :D

[Dagon Thyne]

Thinking out loud en-masse is a wonderful thing.. Creator bless the forum!

 

 

The True Power is drawn directly from the DO.

 

What are everyone's thoughts on another power provided, and drawn directly from the Creator?

 

With all the 'yins' and 'yangs' to the series, there would be no surprise!

 

 

Speculate!

 

 

According to the Wheel of Time D20, which was reviewed and approved by RJ, the True Power is a form of the One Power that is drawn from the True Source directly into the DO's body.  It is corrupted by the Dark One's evil and can not be touched unless a person is linked to the DO like the forsaken are.  Once the link is broken, as it was with Ishmael in EOTW, a person can no longer tocuh the True power.

[jemron]

Thinking out loud en-masse is a wonderful thing.. Creator bless the forum!

 

 

The True Power is drawn directly from the DO.

 

What are everyone's thoughts on another power provided, and drawn directly from the Creator?

 

With all the 'yins' and 'yangs' to the series, there would be no surprise!

 

 

Speculate!

 

 

According to the Wheel of Time D20, which was reviewed and approved by RJ, the True Power is a form of the One Power that is drawn from the True Source directly into the DO's body.  It is corrupted by the Dark One's evil and can not be touched unless a person is linked to the DO like the forsaken are.  Once the link is broken, as it was with Ishmael in EOTW, a person can no longer tocuh the True power.

 

Whoa!  I've never heard this before, but it makes total sense.  On the other hand, are we sure (even though RJ approved it) that this is "canon?"

 

EDIT:  I just came across this in another post, and now I'm sure you are right, but I never knew this before and it really makes sense:

 

Quote

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's POVs that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

 

Robert Jordan Answers:It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html

 

This is a way cool revelation for me!  The TRUE POWER is just the DO's twisted version of the ONE POWER that he pulls from the True Source and then makes available to both men and women.  This certainly has to be important.  I always assumed that both the TP and the OP were completely separate from each other, and that the OP comes from the True Source, but the TP comes directly from the DO and he is the source of the TP.  This, however, clarifies that the TP also comes from the True Source, but then is twisted/changed by the DO and is only available if linked directly to him.

 

Very cool!

[FarShainMael]

What if Rand and co were to gentle the DO......