Fortuona on a leash

[Naffy]

*sigh*

 

I would *so* enjoy seeing Fortuona on the arse-end of an a'dam.

 

 

Really?  I actually really like Tuon.  She is one the best female characters in the series IMO.

[farthammer]

Mat is in love with Webster.

[FarShainMael]

Quote from: Luckers

Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

 

  Prove it, Luckers. Good luck trying.

 

Alright. Channelers don't sense her.

 

Wow. That was hard.

 

There are inconsistencies here. Tuon does appear slowed, and can see weaves; how has this happened, if she can't / hasn't yet channelled?

 

[Fains nose]

Can someone please provide the quote or page number where tuon sais she can see weaves, because i dont remember that at all and it seems like a massive thing

[Lambada]

Quote from: Luckers

Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

 

 Prove it, Luckers. Good luck trying.

 

Alright. Channelers don't sense her.

 

Wow. That was hard.

 

There are inconsistencies here. Tuon does appear slowed, and can see weaves; how has this happened, if she can't / hasn't yet channelled?

 

 

Hmm.. perhaps she's like Egwene was (pre-Moiraine) - chanelling unconsciously in times of stress? Thus she would think that she never had channeled before, yet could still get the channeling side-effects.

We have no proof that channelling saidar on your own is life-threatening.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Quote from: Luckers

Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

 

 Prove it, Luckers. Good luck trying.

 

Alright. Channelers don't sense her.

 

Wow. That was hard.

 

There are inconsistencies here. Tuon does appear slowed, and can see weaves; how has this happened, if she can't / hasn't yet channelled?

 

 

Hmm.. perhaps she's like Egwene was (pre-Moiraine) - chanelling unconsciously in times of stress? Thus she would think that she never had channeled before, yet could still get the channeling side-effects.

We have no proof that channelling saidar on your own is life-threatening.

 

She's the Empress- may she live forever- she can do whatever she wants.

I have no idea how she can see the weaves AND not be able to be detected by another channeler, has that even been said? Surely none of the sul'dam or damane would admit to being able to sense her, no idea about the AS though, so i have no idea whats goin on with that.

 

OOOOR... shes actually Demandred, who can actually wield both Saidin and Saidar, and is masking the ability so as none can sense him/her.

[mossman87]

@Dida:

 

You cannot take a statement about one thing and apply it to everything else connected to it.

 

You can if your name is Dida.

[Cirin]

I think they mention another sul'dam talking about this too, that after working with the damane the sul'dam often are able to see what the damane are doing.  I don't think Tuon is unique in this.

[Majsju]

Quote from: Luckers

Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

 

  Prove it, Luckers. Good luck trying.

 

Alright. Channelers don't sense her.

 

Wow. That was hard.

 

There are inconsistencies here. Tuon does appear slowed, and can see weaves; how has this happened, if she can't / hasn't yet channelled?

 

 

Looking young is not the same as having Slowed. Especially not for someone like Tuon, who is very short, and not the curviest of women.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Quote from: Luckers

Fortuona cannot and has never channeled. She could learn to if she so chose, but she does not.

 

  Prove it, Luckers. Good luck trying.

 

Alright. Channelers don't sense her.

 

Wow. That was hard.

 

There are inconsistencies here. Tuon does appear slowed, and can see weaves; how has this happened, if she can't / hasn't yet channelled?

 

 

Looking young is not the same as having Slowed. Especially not for someone like Tuon, who is very short, and not the curviest of women.

 

Yeah, i dont thinkk she has slowed, shes always looked like a small child, people CAN look younger than they are without having to be "slowing". If we take every character who looks younger than they are to be "slowing" we could say the same of Olver (who is obviously Demandred in disguise, having slowed so conspicuously)

 

There are heaps of others that would look younger, i think thats just how it is

[Netizen]

*sigh*

 

I would *so* enjoy seeing Fortuona on the arse-end of an a'dam.

 

 

Really?  I actually really like Tuon.  She is one the best female characters in the series IMO.

 

Don't get me wrong. I like her too. But it is shockingly hypocritical that she thinks that it's OK for her to be a channeler as long as she chooses not to channel. It would do her good to be leashed for a while.

[farthammer]

The world revolves around hypocrisy.  Switch damane for nuclear weapons and Seanchan for any western power maintaining a stockpile of those weapons.

[Durinax]

The world revolves around hypocrisy.  Switch damane for nuclear weapons and Seanchan for any western power maintaining a stockpile of those weapons.

perhaps lets not open topics like this since it will lead to a lot of headache for me

[Graveyardhag]

She hasn't slowed, She just looks young. and only 3 (4?) years younger than her actuall age at that. And only that young when she smiles. Surely you all know people who look younger than they are?

 

Also, I don't believe she is old enough to have started slowing yet. (I get the impression that Nyn's slowing started earlier than normal because of her strength - might be wrong about this)

 

Also also, Every sul'dam the a'dam can hold can see the weaves, and BS has told us the a'dam could hold her, and Tuon was actually in control of the a'dam when she made the statement about the weaves melting. Of course she knew what had happened, she was in control!

[farthammer]

What you don't think RJ drew from the absurdities in the real world inspirations for a lot of the situations in the story?  I didn't even single out any particular nation so calm down.

[Durinax]

What you don't think RJ drew from the absurdities in the real world inspirations for a lot of the situations in the story?  I didn't even single out any particular nation so calm down.

I am calm, its just a huge issue in the world, and without even saying a nation you can open a huge issue

[farthammer]

Really man if you can't handle it just stop posting about it.

[amaranth]

We may also want to consider the oath rod. Fortuna could use it to ensure channelers work for the empire. No only that, but if the empire made sul'dam learn to channel, the empire would end up with 3-4x as many damaine that could be used as weapons.

[Morsker]

We may also want to consider the oath rod. Fortuna could use it to ensure channelers work for the empire. No only that, but if the empire made sul'dam learn to channel, the empire would end up with 3-4x as many damaine that could be used as weapons.

 

Unrestricted use of the Oath Rod would be a disaster. The Seanchen would be able to form circles, and would conquer the world. I could see a treaty where damane are given the choice to swear Oaths instead of wearing the a'dam, but it would have to be at the White Tower under Aes Sedai supervision, and it couldn't be an oath of total obedience.

[FarShainMael]

She hasn't slowed, She just looks young. and only 3 (4?) years younger than her actuall age at that. And only that young when she smiles. Surely you all know people who look younger than they are?

 

While that is true, what bothers me is this:

 

Her place was far from secure even now. A single misstep could see her dead, or worse, stripped and sold on the public block. Blessings of the Light, when she smiled, she still looked sixteen! At best!

 

(Thanks to Dida.. old chum, please don't bury these gems in huge indigestible chunks of posting..  ;)  )

 

There are two things here which grab my attention: the context of the comment Tuon makes to herself about her youthful appearance, indicating that she feels she is in danger related to it, and its tone - she is surprised / alarmed.

 

It's been pointed out earlier in this thread that BS has stated that Tuon can channel. So, how is it that (as Luckers says) AS in her vicinity haven't noticed? Well, there's one other channeller who is apparently very adept at hiding her channelling ability, and in a Tower full of AS at that. No, I'm not suggesting 'Tuon= Mesaana', only that she may have similar skills, and may be instinctively hiding her ability, strongly motivated by the knowledge of what her fate would undoubtedly be otherwise.

 

I wonder if she's been lying about her age.. and how old she was on her first 'naming day'.. do they have to 'come of age' in some sense before they are formally named?

 

 

 

[jadelollipop]

Tuon's arrival in Winter's Heart implies that she is 19. When she smiles she looks no older than 16.

Selucia was given to Tuon by her mother as a nursemaid/bodyguard as a cradlegift. On her 16th naming day Tuon gave her a sack of one hundred golden thrones as payment for all the times she had needed to be disciplined.  Selucia became her chief maid/dresser (still bodyguard). That was 3 years ago.

Later Mat "was shocked to learn she was only a few years younger than he. He would have said more like 10. Well 6 or 7"

At this time Mat is 20. Tuon is short and he first thought she was a little girl. 13 or 14 at best.

The description of Tuon explains his reasons.

"Her eyes were too large,and a liquid brown. When she forgot to keep a stern mask,her heart-shaped face

belonged on a mischievous child. The top of her head barely came to Selucia's eyes,and her dresser was not a tall woman. . .At least the wide,woven belt of gold emphasized he waist enough that she would not be taken for a boy in a dress. . . .it would have been nice to have a little more bosom"

 

[FarShainMael]

Remember Twiggy..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twiggy

and 'Posh Spice'..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Beckham

 

[Dida]

This is my theory: She will be leashed. She will go through weeks of damane training and become humbled(Giving her a emotional connection to Egwene). Also they will teach her Traveling.

 

#1 - I do not think Empress Fortuona could politically survive as Empress after being leashed by an a’dam at all.  Why?  Damane are given new names after being leashed.  Thus Empress Fortuona would be no more.

 

 

 

”I decided to use my freeday helping Jillari settle on a surname.”  Reanne grimaced.  “It’s custom in Seanchan to strike a girl’s name from her family’s rolls when she’s collared, and the poor woman feels she has no right to the name she was born with.

 

Source: Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter “Wet Things” – Elayne point of view, with Reanne and Elayne in Caemlyn Palace

 

 

To be leashed means not being of the High Blood, nor of the Imperial House in Seanchan society.   So Empress Fortuona is going to have to dodge or fight any attempt to test her neck with an a’dam if she wants to retain her current position.   That possibly implies a civil war and/or flight from those who want to remove and overthrow her—General Galgan & Seeker Mor.  

 

 

I’m not sure how exactly Fortuona will avoid this just yet.  I have a few ideas kicking around in my mind.  However, it’s one of the sections of ToM book, I am avidly awaiting to read to be honest.  Why in ToM book?  Because I suspect it needs to occur before Rand dies as Shadowkiller.

 

 

 

 

Can someone please provide the quote or page number where tuon sais she can see weaves, because i dont remember that at all and it seems like a massive thing

 

#2 - It is found in Knife of Dreams, Chapter ‘A Short Path’;  on page 244 in the Hardback if you have USA copy of the 1st edition published in 2005.  That is where Tuon states she can see weaves of the power to Mat Cauthon.

 

 

”I didn’t bring these three out of Ebou Dar so you could take them back,” Mat said firmly, sliding himself along the bed.  The foxhead grew colder still, and Tuon made a startled sound.

 

“How did you … do that, Toy?  The weave … melted … when it touched you.”

 

        “It’s a gift, Precious.”

 

 

Source: Knife of Dreams, Chapter ‘A Short Path’ – Mat Cauthon point of view, Tuon, Selucia, Edesina, Joline, Teslyn, and Noal in a Wagon  with Valan Luca’s Circus a day after leave the salt town of Jurador

 

 

When Tuon states, “The weave … melted … when it touched you” that is Tuon admitting seeing weaves of the Power.

 

 

Tuon has had the very best sul’dam trainers available to teach her, and ample numbers of damane available to link with—why?--her mother owns more damane than anyone as Empress.  And yet, even Tuon is “startled” by seeing weaves melt.

 

 

For comparison sakes, look at what Bethamin states about ‘seeing weaves of the Power’.  At this point in the story, Bethamin has doubts

 

Often she thought she could almost see damane’s weaves, and she could always sense a damane’s presence and know how strong she was. Many sul’dam could; everyone knew it came from long experience at handling the a’dam. Yet the sight of that desperate pair roused unwanted thoughts, putting a different and frightening complexion on what she had always accepted. Did she almost see the weaves, or did she really see? Sometimes she thought she felt the channeling, too.

 

 

Source: Winter’s Heart, book 9, Chapter 20 “Questions of Treason” – Bethamin point of view, her thoughts

 

 

 

#3 - Why are ‘seeing weaves or folds of the Power’ so important for a channeler?

 

  That is the difference between a Sul'dam and/or a blindfolded Aes Sedai versus a regular Channeler with one's eyes open.

 

 

Seta would have found another place to sleep had that been possible, and he learned from Mistress Anan that the Seanchan woman put her hands over her eyes whenever Joline or Edesina was teaching Bethamin in the wagon.

 

“I’m certain she can see the weaves,”  Setalle said.  He would have said she sounded envious except that he doubted she envied anyone.  “She’s halfway to admitting it, or she wouldn’t hide her eyes.   Soon or late, she’ll come around and want to learn, too.”  Maybe she did sound envious at that.

 

 

Source: Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter 9 “A Short Path” – Mat Cauthon point of view, with Setalle Anan—who is formerly known at Martine Janata, an Aes Sedai for 40 years previously.

 

 

So admitting to seeing weaves is the first step in getting trained as a channeler.  Which is what one of the captured Sul’dam in Caemlyn finally admits to seeing, weaves of the power.  

 

 

 

Reanne hurried on so the point had no time to fester.  “And there’s other news as good.  At least, it’s somewhat good. One of the sul’dam, Marli Noichin—you recall her?—has admitted seeing the weaves.”

 

“Oh, that is good news,”  Elayne murmured.  “Very good.  Twenty-eight more to go, but they might be easier now that one of them has broken.”  She had watched an attempt to convince Marli that she could learn to channel, that she could already see weaves of the Power.  The plump Seanchan woman had been stubbornly defiant even after she began crying.

 

“Somewhat good, I said.”  Reanne sighed.  “In Marli’s opinion, she might as well have admitted she kills children.  Now she insists that she must be collared.  She begs for the a’dam.  It makes my skin creep.  I don’t know what to do with her.”

 

 

Source:  Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter “Wet Things” – Elayne point of view, with Kin Elder Reanne and Birgitte in Caemlyn.

 

 

What makes Tuon’s  claim of ‘seeing the weaves’ so atypical among the Seanchan.  Is she is only Sul’dam who on her own willing admits to seeing the weaves without anybody push her to see them.  When Tuon admitted to Mat seeing the weaves of the Power, she didn’t know what it meant—that she should be a marath’damane in Seanchan eyes.

 

 

Bethamin on the other hand was exposed to seeing both Seta & Renna being leashed with an a’dam.  Then Egeanin leashed Bethamin, as a way to stop her from fleeing.  Yet still Bethamin had to think very deeply about it, and had to deduct logically before she could admit to herself that she really did ‘see weaves of the power’.

 

 

Marli Noichin on the other hand has been a captive of the Kin’s and under their training to become a channeler since the Path of Daggers book.  However she is the only Sul’dam to admit seeing the weaves of power out of 29 women!   One out of twenty-eight sul’dam in Caemlyn, that is it.

 

 

        It’s not like Elayne was not trying to show the Sul’dam they could read weaves of the power:

 

 

Oddly, she could not feel a single woman channeling anywhere in the palace, though it housed more than a hundred and fifty with the ability. Some would be stationed on the city’s outer walls, of course, too far for her to sense anything short of a linked circle, and a few would be out of the city altogether, yet someone in the palace was almost always using saidar, whether to try forcing one of the captive sul’dam to admit that she really could see weaves of the One Power or simply to smooth the wrinkles from a shawl without heating an iron.

 

 

Source:  The Crossroads of Twilight, book 11, Chapter 11 “Talk of Debts” – Elayne point of view in the Caemlyn Palace, during the Cleansing of the Taint

 

 

 

As a counter example, Rand is not able to see weaving of the Power created by Saidar.  Which makes sense considering Rand can only channel Saidin, not Saidar.  

 

 

”Shadowspawn,” Cadsuane said quietly, putting down her embroidery and rising.  His skin tingled as she embraced the Source.  Or maybe it was Alivia, walking briskly toward the windows after the Green sister.

 

(Skipped two paragraphs.)

 

Others had heard the Ogier’s cries, or maybe just looked out a window.  Lightning began to fall among the charging Trollocs, silvery bolts that struck with a roar and hurled huge bodies in every direction.  In other places, the ground erupted in flames, fountaining dirt and parts of Trollocs, heads, arms, legs wheeling through the air.  Balls of fire struck them and exploded, each killing dozens.  But on they ran, as fast as horses if not faster.  Rand could not see the weaves that drew some of those lightning bolts.

 

 

Source: Knife of Dreams, book 12, Chapter 19 “Vows” – Rand al’Thor point of view and his thoughts, with Cadsuane, Alivia, Min, Loial and Maidens Harilin, Enaila.

 

 

In contrast, Rand easily see the weaves of roughly 200 separate Asha’men weaving Saidin at Dumai Wells, in the scene below.

 

A dome of Air suddenly covered the entire camp, smoke from the fires sliding up to a hole left in the top. It was not one solid weave of saidin; Rand could see where individual weaves butted one against another to make it. He thought there might have been as many as two hundred black-coated men beneath the dome.

 

 

Source: Lord of Chaos, book 6, Chapter 55 “Dumai Wells” – Rand al’Thor point of view with many, many other individuals in the scene.

 

 

She's the Empress- may she live forever- she can do whatever she wants.  I have no idea how she can see the weaves AND not be able to be detected by another channeler, has that even been said? Surely none of the sul'dam or damane would admit to being able to sense her, no idea about the AS though, so i have no idea whats goin on with that.

 

How many individuals look Tuon in the eyes, again?

 

Only those of the same status as herself can look in her eyes specifically, unless she allows it.   Sul’dam and even Der’sul’dam are not of the Low Blood or High Blood or even the Imperial House.  Meaning Tuon’s sul’dam trainers could not look her in the eyes.  

 

        Unless one is looking at the person weaving the Power, all they will feeling is someone channeling.   And if a Sul’dam is connected to a Damane, almost everyone would assume the channeling came from the Damane, not the Sul’dam.  

 

        Even if a Sul’dam could see Tuon channeling, how could that Sul’dam be sure that the damane was channeling and not Tuon herself?  As 29 out of 29 Sul’dam in the Caemlyn willing denied seeing weaves of the power until forced to learn by the Kin?

 

 

For example, recall when Elayne was blindfolded by six Black Ajah sisters in a wagon?  

 

Unable to see, she could not channel to any real purpose, but she could sense weaves near her, some of Spirit, some of Air.  Without seeing the weaves, she was unable to know what they were, yet she could make a reasonable guess.  He captors were themselves captives now, shielded and bound.  And all she could do was wait impatiently.  Birgitte was coming closer rapidly, yet now she felt anxious to have that bloody web of ropes off her.

 

Source:  Knife of Dreams, book 11, Chapter “Nine Out of Ten” – Elayne point of view, her thought while being blindfolded and tied up in Wagon with many Black Ajah sisters just outside of Caemlyn

 

 

Sul’dam typically do not see weaves of the power, but feel weaves and have to make reasonable guesses.  Just like what Elayne does above, when blindfolded.  Which is what Bethamin herself claims to feel, always sensing a damane's presence, but thought she almost could see weaves?

 

Often she thought she could almost see damane’s weaves, and she could always sense a damane’s presence and know how strong she was.

 

Source: Winter’s Heart, book 9, Chapter 20 “Questions of Treason” – Bethamin point of view, her thoughts

 

 

  Yet Tuon is highly atypical in that she can see weaves of the saidar, which 29 of 29 sul’dam were unable to see at all—before meeting the Kin. And then only 1 out of 29 sul’dam admitting seeing weaves of saidar after ample time forcing them to watch weaves.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, I don't believe she is old enough to have started slowing yet.

 

False.  

 

Tuon is slightly older in age at almost twenty, while Talaan din Gelyn is nineteen years old.  Each have the same ‘slowed’ appearance and it is a fact Talaan din Gelyn is a very strong, talented channeler.  Interestingly, the gap in physically appearance versus real chronological age is the same for both women.

 

 

 

How does Talaan appear to Nynaeve al’Meara?  

 

 

Least than fifteen years old, when she is really nineteen years old!

 

 

“Well, the training is very hard, Talaan,” she said

gently, “and you must be at least fifteen. Besides . . . ” Something else the young woman had said struck her suddenly. “You will miss your mother?” she said incredulously, not caring how it sounded.

 

“I am nineteen!” Talaan replied indignantly. Looking at that boyish face and form, Nynaeve was not sure she believed. “And of course I will miss my mother. Do I look unnatural?  Oh; I see.  You do not understand.  We are very affectionate in private, but she must avoid any sign of favor in public. That is a serious crime, with us. It could have mother stripped of her rank, and both of us hung upside down in the rigging to be flogged.”

 

 

Source:  Winter's Heart, book 9, Chapter 11 "Ideas of Importance" - Nynaeve point of view, with Talaan din Gelyn in the Caemlyn Palace

 

 

It is not like one can claim Talaan din Gelyn lacked talented relatives & teachers to expose her to how to use Saidar successfully.    The din Gelyn extended family has five Clan level Windfinders in its own ranks!  Besides, the din Gelyn family had 3 of its number in the circle which fixed the weather using the Bowl of Winds—including Talaan herself.

 

 

 

How does Tuon appear to herself?

 

 

Barely sixteen years old in appearance, when she is really almost twenty years old.

 

 

Blessings of the Light, when she smiled, she still looked sixteen! At best!

 

Source: White Heart, book 9,  Chapter 14 "What a Veil Hides" – Tuon point of view, her thoughts

 

 

 

 

  How old does Tuon appear to Mat Cauthon in age at first?

 

 

“You do not understand, Suroth.” Tuon’s sigh stirred the veil covering her face. Covering but not concealing. She looked . . . resigned. He had been shocked to learn she was only a few years younger than he. He would have said more like ten. Well, six or seven. “

 

 

Source: Winter’s Heart, book 9, Chapter 18 “An Offer” – Mat point of view, with Tuon, Anath (Semirhage), Selucia, Suroth in Ebou Dar palace.

 

 

Mat was born is 978 N.E. and the year now 1000 N.E., which means Mat either 21 or 22 years old.    If we say Mat’s 21.5 years old, his judgment of her physically appearance in age roughly matches Tuon’s very own judgment of her appearance.

 

 

 

Once again, Mat wonders openly how old Tuon is?

 

 

 

Recall Mat is hoping she is too young to marry, and suspects she might be too young because of her physical appearance.

 

 

“How old are you?” He had heard that she was only a few years younger than he, but looking at her in that sack of a dress, it seemed impossible.

To his surprise, that dangerous spark burst into flame. Not just heat lightning, this time. He should have been fried on the spot. Tuon threw back her shoulders and drew herself to her full height. Such as that was; he doubted she could reach five feet with her heels flat however she stretched. “My fourteenth true-name day will come in five months,” she said in a voice that was far from cold. In fact, it could have heated the wagon better than the stove. He felt a moment of hope, but she was not finished. “No; you keep your birth names here, don’t you. That will be my twentieth naming day. Are you satisfied, Toy? Did you fear you had stolen a . . . child?” She almost hissed the last word.

 

 

Source:  The Crossroads of Twilight, book 10, Chapter 3 “A Fan of Colors” – Mat Cauthon point of view, with Tuon, Selucia, Setalle Anan in a wagon with Valan Luca’s circus

 

[Graveyardhag]

And if you apply the rest of what I said to that you might have noticed I indicated Nyneaves strength as a factor in her possible early slowing (my opinion only - Its just the impression I get) and since Tallaan's strength is on a level with Nyneave it certaintly makes sense that Talaan has slowed by nineteen.

 

Tuon on the other hand... The only time we get an indication of her knowing what is going on in regards to channeling she is in control of an a'dam a fact you seem to be ignoring. Sometimes people just look young.

Just to clarify - I don't have an opinion on if she has channeled yet or not - not enough evidence to support it so far. I just dont see that she has slowed simply because she is small and looks young. I'm 25 myself, and can easily pass for 18. does this mean I have channeled now?! (gosh I hope so! fireballs away!)

 

What has Rand got to do with weather or not Tuon can see weaves?

[jadelollipop]

My previous post shows calculations correct re: age of 19. :)  According to the Worlds of Robert Jordan the testing for damane/sul'dam ends at 21 so doubtful she would be re-tested.

I don't know if she has already channeled. (when Mat took her to the Hell in where-ever it was,what did Tom see?)  I know he either saw Tuon channel to save Mat or just saw Selucia as a bodyguard. Or Tuon in action without channeling...Not sure which book that is in...