Next Forsaken to die

[Ishmayl]

Dida, I know you like to be one of the more disagreeable people around here, but seriously, Cyndane and Lanfear are the same person.  It's been stated as obviously as possible in the books.

 

Oh, and Egwene doesn't deserve to kill any Forsaken. Not even Mesaana.

 

Seriously!  I honestly cannot follow what people see in Egwene.  She's stubborn, wrong-headed, and is literally currently the epitome of everything that is wrong with Aes Sedai.  Girl needs to be brought down a peg or two...

[Shard]

I meant more at the hands of the White Tower then specifically Egwene killing Messi with her own hands. More like she gives the order and Messanna is executed, I just want one of these forsaken to be publicly executed and I think Messy is the only one that can viably happen to.

 

@Drekka: Caddy DID break Semi, she humiliated her by spanking her and breaking her of her overwhelming pride. I thought it was rather brilliant.

[yoniy0]

I'm really fascinated by how some people just can't stomach Egwene's personality, while others (myself included) think she's great.

If any moderator is reading this, could you open a poll about her? I don't know if you can do this, but I'll find it very interesting to learn if there's any correlation between gender/age and Egwene-Hating. My personal feeling is that it's something else (I remember Brandon saying how when he was younger he empathized more with the boys, and lately he finds himself agreeing more and more with Moiraine and Nyneave's way of thinking. I don't think it's something similar with Egwene, after all she starts as a little girl and matures quite a bit by the end of tGS) , but I'd love to find out for sure.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Demandred is going the way of the Dodo. I bet we will never find out who he is masquarading as if he is at all.

Two reasons why I think he is going to kick the bucket:

1.Most people seem to expect him not to

2.he will be scarificed in an effort to turn Rand like Semirhage(correct spelling is?) was.

 

Also I was reading Lord of Chaos and the bit with Greandal and Sammael and he was thinking to himself that she would bolt at the first sight of Rand. I think Sam had a pretty good handle on her Gren so it could be likely that she didn't die.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that Messana and Demandred will be the Forsaken that are focused on in the next book and they'll both end up dead.

 

Messana hiding in the Tower is a big theme right now and it'll need to be wrapped up before everyone leaves the Tower and marches up north for the Last Battle.  It'll be Egwene who kills her because, despite some negative opinions on the forum of the girl, RJ and BS both seem to like her, so she'll get to do something heroic like killing a Forsaken.

 

For Demandred, there's been so much buildup to wondering WTF that guy is up to that I don't think it'll be put off until the last book when there'll be other things to focus on.  I think he's going to be the major baddie in the next one.  What I would look forward to seeing is him almost getting into a major fight with Rand, but then getting killed off by a lackey like Logain or someone before that happens.

 

For Moghidien and Lanfear, I don't care.  Their storylines are played out and they're just kind of around right now.  They live, they die, it doesn't matter either way. 

 

Arangar doesn't seem to have much of a point either, since her entire plotline was just playing second fiddle to Messana's plan and she didn't do that well enough to particularly matter more than any random Black Ajah character inserted into her place.  It would be hard to find a more irrelevant death than being killed by a Nym a couple of pages after you show up like the first one, but I think she'll come close and be totally irrelevant before that, too.

 

Moridin will survive until the Last Battle and I think Taim's going to get promoted to Forsaken and bring along his DF Ashamen to fight alongside Alviarin's Black Ajah with the Trolloc armies.

 

[Blackhoof]

My greatest fear is that the great "whats demandred doing?" Will be pathetic and anti-climatic

[Rasko]

My greatest fear is that the great "whats demandred doing?" Will be pathetic and anti-climatic

 

Yeah he could be the guy cleaning out Rand's toliet....

[Random Man]

I'm really fascinated by how some people just can't stomach Egwene's personality, while others (myself included) think she's great.

If any moderator is reading this, could you open a poll about her? I don't know if you can do this, but I'll find it very interesting to learn if there's any correlation between gender/age and Egwene-Hating. My personal feeling is that it's something else (I remember Brandon saying how when he was younger he empathized more with the boys, and lately he finds himself agreeing more and more with Moiraine and Nyneave's way of thinking. I don't think it's something similar with Egwene, after all she starts as a little girl and matures quite a bit by the end of tGS) , but I'd love to find out for sure.

 

I'd know that I'd like to see the stats on this, although I'm not sure how much it would have to do with age/gender. That might be a bit simplistic. What I think a lot of people don't give her credit for is that she found herself thrust into a position where she was supposed to be a figurehead (at the very least, Romanda and Lelaine had expected her to become a pawn for one to use against the other) but that she managed through savvy and possibly questionable means (but without crossing over into unforgivable actions) to assert herself as a person of real power, regardless of what those who put her in power intended. Additionally, she has done a lot of maturing on her own.

[papertiger]

I'll give Egwene points for manipulating the Hall and the Security Council and I think a lot of her maturation occurred while she was an apprentice with the Wise Ones. Rather, her time with the WOs primed her for seeing through all the AS tomfoolery.

 

I'd also love to see a poll on most Hated or Loved characters. I love Moiraine and can tolerate Nynaeve when she's on her own, but Egwene always got under my skin. One of my favorite non-action moments in TEOTW is when Elyas calls her out for trying to boss him around like she does Perrin.

 

"I said no, girl."

 

Awesome.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Ya I can see us not even finding out who Demandred is or what he was doing.

 

Forsaken Tea Party

 

Moridin - Oh Demandred is dead. Got hit my a slate blown from a roof when he was scoping out what Rand was up to.

 

Asomdean - Oh thats too bad.

 

Moridin - What?! I though you were dead?

 

Aginor - Yeah!

 

Sammael - Hey pipe down the world cup is on and I've a bet on with Aran'gar.

 

Moridin - God! Or I mean, aghh I don't know you to swear to! Bloody ashes! The dark one has to stop resurrecting these bums. We really need to hire some new chosen.

 

Taim - Please pick me. Oh please, oh please, oh please please please pick me.

 

Moridn - *sigh* I'm so bleedin tired. Okay your in Taim. Don't screw it up or you will face the consequences.

 

The three dead resurrected guys -  What consequences?

 

Demandred - Yo what I miss.

 

Moridin - This is freakin ridiculous!

 

Logain - Tell me about it boss.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

These Forsaken coffee hours are turning into material for The Bob Newhart Show.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I have no clue who that is and what it says about the posts.

[Dreamwalker]

I have no clue who that is and what it says about the posts.

 

Wikipedia ftw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Newhart_Show

[Dida]

Dida, I know you like to be one of the more disagreeable people around here, but seriously, Cyndane and Lanfear are the same person.  It's been stated as obviously as possible in the books.

 

It's been stated as obviously as possible in the books, that Lanfear is Returning to Walk Again because of the actions of Mat Cauthon from the Tower of Ghenjei.

 

 

Did you ever think about why Mat is going to lose half the light of the world, and why the World's fate possibly rests on his actions?  Did you ever think about which two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, Mat was going weight and what his decision was going to be based on?  Did you ever notice the mass number of disjunctures between the Lanfear prior to the docks in Cairhien event and Cyndane's own character?  Why does Semirhage believe Lanfear is due to return?  Why does not a single female Chosen believe Cyndane is Lanfear, as you seem to do? Even Semirhage does not claim that Cyndane is Lanfear, according to Demandred.  

 

 

Disagreeable? Nope.  Just noticing clues, hints other people missed and piecing things together.  After reading this series +20 times over the years, I do not need popularity to feel that the majority of forum readers here are dead wrong about Cyndane supposed identity.  Experts can disagree about an outcome, without being disagreeable... as Terez, Linda support your view on Cyndane, while I obviously hold a different view.  Which is that the Daughter of the Night is absolutely KEY to Rand al'Thor fate and the World's fate.  

 

 

Or as Robert Jordan once wrote...

We must always remember the Trollocs,

Myrddraal etc; the last time they came out in force, it

took over 300 years to beat them back, and the Last Battle

doesn't give Rand anywhere near that.

 

Source: Carolyn Fusinato - Collection of Quotes - dated January 25th 1994 - stored at www.Archive.org

 

This is one of many reasons, why Rand needs to die...while holding Callandor, and Lanfear, Alivia are going to help him do this.  Die to save the world from Shadowspawn invasion, among other reasons.

 

 

It's also almost become a cult on all the WoT Forums, that Cyndane is supposedly Lanfear... if one even puts out there that that assumption is false, everyone and their grandmother attempts to hit that person over the head with a club.  Let alone put out a claim the majority is incorrect in its assumptions.  Nobody I know of, truly enjoys being incorrect on a topic... it takes heart to acknowledge that one can error.  

 

 

 

The very man who created this series of lovely books, Robert Jordan, has claimed publicly that 'changeability of knowledge' is a major theme--'the mutability of information'.  One which I suspect some here may have missed.  Just as some may have missed the aspect of THOR in Rand al'Thor previously.

 

 

 

"Q: Is there any symbolism or "deeper meaning" behind

this series?  A: There are layers, certainly, but I don't

know from deeper meaning." (from the second moderated

conference on America On-line, October 20, 1994)

 

"There are a number of themes that run through the

series. There's the good old basic struggle between good

and evil, with an emphasis on the difficulaty in

recognizing what is good and what is evil. There's also

the difficulty in deciding how far you can go in fighting

evil. I like to think of it as a scale. At one end you

hold purely to your own ideals no matter what the cost,

with the result that possibly evil wins. At the other end,

you do anything and everything to win, with the result

that maybe it doesn't make much difference whether you've

won or evil has won. There has to be some sort of balance

found in the middle, and it's very difficult to find.

Another recurring theme is lack of information, and the

mutability of information. No one knows everything.

Everyone has to operate on incomplete knowledge, and quite

often they know they are operating on incomplete

knowledge, but they still have to make decisions. The

reader quite often knows that the reason why a character

is doing something is totally erroneous, but it's still

the best information that the character in the book has. I

like to explore the changeability of knowledge, the way

that in the beginning, characters see things in one way,

and as they grow and learn more, we and they find out that

what they knew as the truth wasn't necessarily the whole

truth. Sometimes it's hardly the truth at all...That's a

major theme, really, in the whole series, that

changeability-the way something starts out seeming to be

one simple thing, and slowly it is revealed to have a

number of very complex layers." (from the _Sense of

Wonder_ interview in the October/November 1994 Issue)

 

 

Source: Carolyn Fusinato - Collection of Quotes - dated January 25th 1994 - stored at Archive.org

 

 

Lanfear herself alludes of this very set of 'very complex layers', once before to Mat Cauthon in Tar Valon, "Just remember that there is another choice. You need not be a puppet for the White Tower or prey for Ba’alzamon’s Darkfriends. The world is more complex than you can imagine." (tDR, Ch.20)

 

 

Have you ever considered that the very topic of Lanfear, is exactly what one of Verin's letters to someone is going to be about?

 

She (Verin) rested a finger on one line. “ ‘Daughter of the Night, she walks again.’ That can only mean Lanfear is loose again. Or someone wants us to think she is.”

 

Source: The Great Hunt, book 2, Chapter 7 "Blood Calls Blood" - Moiraine point of view

 

 

 

There are plenty of reasons to include both Cyndane and Lanfear on a list of 'Next Forsaken to Die'.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Thanks. I still don't get the comment though, it would appear that I'm a bit slow on the up take.

[singogreatest360]

Dida, I know you like to be one of the more disagreeable people around here, but seriously, Cyndane and Lanfear are the same person.  It's been stated as obviously as possible in the books.

 

 Why does Semirhage believe Lanfear is due to return?  Why does not a single female Chosen believe Cyndane is Lanfear, as you seem to do? Even Semirhage does not claim that Cyndane is Lanfear, according to Demandred.  

 

 

WTF!! LIGHT MAN! If Cyndane isn't Lanfear reborn i'll eat Mat's hat.

 

WH: Chapter 35 With the Choedan Kal

Cyndane  feels the flow of saidar  and knows that Lews Therin  found a woman to use the female access key. She would have faced the Great Lord  or the Creator  with him, but he spurned her.

 

She thinks after being held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, she is weaker in the One Power than she used to be.

 

Unless LT had another crazy forsaken ex-girlfriend who was held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, Cyndane = Lanfear

[Blackhoof]

lol. Kind of proves it, doesn't it?

[algspkr]

ToM-

 

1. Demandred

2. Cyndane

 

aMoL-

 

1. Moghedien

2. Aran'gar

 

I'm calling Mesaana and Moridin as the survivors.

 

3. Cyndane - no, she not even a forsaken likely, but almost everyone else believes she is one. Time to meet Alivia again, and time to die. ;)

3a. Lanfear - while in a linked circle with Rand al'Thor holding Callandor and Alivia nuking with lightning, fire all the Shadowspawn everywhere, everywhere at once. Power can kill, Power will kill--sacrificed to alter of power, sacrificed to give the power of opportunity at life to others.

 

From Winter's Heart:

[Cyndane] could feel it.  That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate.  So he had found a woman to use the other access key.  She would have faced the Great Lord - faced the Creator! - with him.  She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her!.

 

From The Shadow Rising Lanfear told Rand:

Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can.  Far greater than that sword.  Their power is beyond imagining.  With those, we could challenge even...the Great Lord himself.  Even the Creator!

 

Sounds like Lanfear reminiscing, but maybe some other chick offered the exact same thing to Rand off screen.  Of course Rand spurned both Lanfear and this other crazy lady we never saw till after Lanfear's disappearance, once again off screen.

 

and again from Winter's Heart:

Abruptly the light of saidar appeared around the woman, but the ready ball of fire streaked from Cyndane's hand, small enough to escape detection she hoped, but enough to burn a hole through this woman who-

 

Just as it reached the woman, almost close enough to singe her garments, the web of Fire unraveled.  The woman did not do anything; the net simply came apart! Cyndane had never heard of a ter'angreal that would break a web, but it must be that.

 

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock.  She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfin had held her!

 

Boy it seems Cyndane has visited with the Aelfinn and Eelfin too.  What are the odds that some random servant of the shadow was who is not Lanfear spent time with them and was weakened from the experience; all off screen leaving Lanfear in Finnland?

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

It is pretty much conclusive that Lanfear=Cyndane, but oh well, no need to get cranky about it, if Dida wants to believe his theory despite its almost impossibility, then he/she is entitled to their opinion, we will all find out in the next 2 books.

 

as for the forsaken next to die, probably aran'gar, punished for failing with Delana etc.. possibly Mesaana for similar failures in WT, after all, there isnt much she can do now after at least half (most likely more) of the BA are taken out.

 

I hope that Demandred comes along and teaches Egwene a lesson along with all the other AS by totally humiliating them and Rand (being the only one -LTT reborn- better than Demandred) commming to save their sorry hides and owning Demandred, although why the heck he would pop up in the WT i dont know, but it would be good

[Shard]

I suspect when Mat get. In the tower we will see a Finn wearing Lanfears old skin as a robe. Perhaps even a Finn masqerading as Lanfear but it will not be Lanfear, for she is Cyndane now and why introduce a character with the name Last Chance if we didn't even see the first one?

[algspkr]

I suspect when Mat get. In the tower we will see a Finn wearing Lanfears old skin as a robe. Perhaps even a Finn masqerading as Lanfear but it will not be Lanfear, for she is Cyndane now and why introduce a character with the name Last Chance if we didn't even see the first one?

 

I don't think he would be able to recognize her skin, as they tan it.  Could you spot a picture of the cow from which your shoes were made?

[Ishmayl]

Dida, I know you like to be one of the more disagreeable people around here, but seriously, Cyndane and Lanfear are the same person.  It's been stated as obviously as possible in the books.

 

 Why does Semirhage believe Lanfear is due to return?  Why does not a single female Chosen believe Cyndane is Lanfear, as you seem to do? Even Semirhage does not claim that Cyndane is Lanfear, according to Demandred.  

 

 

WTF!! LIGHT MAN! If Cyndane isn't Lanfear reborn i'll eat Mat's hat.

 

WH: Chapter 35 With the Choedan Kal

Cyndane  feels the flow of saidar  and knows that Lews Therin  found a woman to use the female access key. She would have faced the Great Lord  or the Creator  with him, but he spurned her.

 

She thinks after being held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, she is weaker in the One Power than she used to be.

 

Unless LT had another crazy forsaken ex-girlfriend who was held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, Cyndane = Lanfear

 

Dida, I'm sorry, but if you can't comprehend ^^this^^, then I just simply don't care.  You, along with Terez, will be two people holding your breath all the way through the next two books, insisting that your loony theories are "about to happen any minute now," even after the last sentence in A Memory of Light.  Have fun with that.

[FarShainMael]

I suspect when Mat get. In the tower we will see a Finn wearing Lanfears old skin as a robe. Perhaps even a Finn masqerading as Lanfear but it will not be Lanfear, for she is Cyndane now and why introduce a character with the name Last Chance if we didn't even see the first one?

 

I don't think he would be able to recognize her skin, as they tan it.  Could you spot a picture of the cow from which your shoes were made?

 

What if it had tattoos.. no, forget that!

 

[TheAngryDruid]

For me, it is Messy or Aran'gar.

 

A kind of have a feeling that Lanfear/Cyndane, Moridin, and Demandred will all be last.

 

And I've a strange feeling that Moggy will survive. She had an epiphany at the cleansing.

 

Egwene knows/suspects Messy is in the tower, so she's in the most danger.

 

I still think Demandred or Moridin has their fingers in the Black Tower along with Taim. I hope that confrontation happens in this book, which could lead to a death. But somehow, I think they will escape the Asha'man purge like Messy did at the Tower.

 

[algspkr]

For me, it is Messy or Aran'gar.

 

A kind of have a feeling that Lanfear/Cyndane, Moridin, and Demandred will all be last.

 

And I've a strange feeling that Moggy will survive. She had an epiphany at the cleansing.

 

Egwene knows/suspects Messy is in the tower, so she's in the most danger.

 

I still think Demandred or Moridin has their fingers in the Black Tower along with Taim. I hope that confrontation happens in this book, which could lead to a death. But somehow, I think they will escape the Asha'man purge like Messy did at the Tower.

 

 

I don't think we will see a purge as complete as what was done in the White Tower unless one of Elayne's toys is a male oath rod.