Mat and his silver fox head medalion

[Rational_Solutions]

Ok, I am reading LOC right now again. I just read the part where he is in Salidar and Egwene has been raised to Amyrlin. They are having the celebrations, and Mat decides that he is going to show the Aes Sedai that they aren't ruffling his feathers by going out and dancing.

 

After he dances with Halima, he decides to walk away because she is flaunting her/him self. As he is walking away Mat notices his medalion going cold, when he looks back all he sees is Halima who looks shocked.

 

Now we know that Halima is one of the 'Gars and is able to channel Sadin. So, I conclude that Mat's medalion protects him from sadin being channeld as well.

 

Here is the rub. Mat had his medalion on him when Rand and him and Aviendah went to Caemlyn to take out Rahvin. How did Rahvin's canneling kill Mat? Shouldn't Mat's medalion protected him? Or is the person who channeld at him in Salidar someone other than Halima?

 

 

Discuss.

[rochaid]

it is similar to the way aes sedai can throw things at him using the power.lightning is a result of weaves of the power,but is not a weave in itself.

[Mangin]

This explaination, which was confirmed from RJ, still bothers me in a physics sense.

 

Flows of Air don't touch Mat. What are flows of Air? Gaseous molecules compressed together to become substantive enough/strong enough to wrap someone up and hold them. They aren't compressed enough to obviously turn to liquid, but still they are molecules of air.

 

Lightning still has to be directed to hit the subject/target in question. So, the electrons travelling through the air(and subsequent target) are in effect being directed just as the flows of air are being directed. Why are the electrons but not the molecules of air allowed to be channeled at/strike at Mat?

 

I don't recall weaves of fire being directed at Mat, so I don't know about the transfer of heated molecular energy and whether they would be stopped by the medallion.

 

I know this is extremely arrogant or presumptious of me to suggest this, but I have been wondering if the Lightning destroying Mat wasn't either flawed logic or possibly even a mistake on RJ's part. I wonder if he is then trying to explain it away later.

 

I am sure I am totally wrong here and I don't have all the information and I am sure others have discussed this ad nauseum, but this is a messageboard and we are allowed to post our opinions here and that was mine.

 

[Graendals favourite]

But the electrons are moving according to an electric field. Touching Mat with a stick of air would require using the power to maintain the stick. In lightning, all you need to do is get it going, and it will go naturally. I don't know what would happen with a fireball, but that on the other hands cannot exist without the Power, and would dissipate on touching him. Though perhaps he might still be burned by the heat.

[Mangin]

In lightning, all you need to do is get it going, and it will go naturally.quote]

 

I believe that lightning will go to the path of least resistance. So, if one were to channel a lightning bolt in existence and then let it do what it is going to do, it will most likely not hit the target you are aiming at, unless that target is a 100 foot tall full plate-mail knight. I would think you need to maintain the weave for the split second it needs to direct the flow of electrons into the target specified. Thus, the power is being used when the bolt hits Mat.

[Rational_Solutions]

well...... I was researching lightning strikes and how they affect the human body. The nature of a lightning strike actually doesn't have to strike the body to kill. After the lightning strikes the ground it can arch out up to 60ft. So given that he just had to be close to the strike to feel the aftermath. That is just the pure science of it.

 

I can't remember if it says specificly that a lightning bolt struck Mat only that he was laying on his back and his boots were smoking. I might be wrong but the science is suportive that it is possible to be struck post strike.

 

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/little_known_facts.html

 

this is where i got my info

[TheDiceAgain...]

I always assumed that Mat's medalion absorbs any flows of the OP that are directly at him/it which explains why he can't be healed while wearing it. It however, does not protect him from the effects of flows that are acting on something else, say the ground and the air right beside him.

 

Rahvin's lightning need not have struck Mat directly to kill him. For one thing, when lightning strikes, the air around the bolt literaly explodes. Your average lightning bolt is actually hotter than the surface of the Sun and it heats the air around itself very rapidly, causing the air to expand and thus creating a shockwave(which we call thunder).

 

If he were standing close enough, he need not be hit by the lightning to be badly burned by the super-heated air or even blown apart by the shockwave(this same sort of shockwave is the most destructive part of an atomic or nuclear explosion)

[Graendals favourite]

Also, well I don't know the technique they use for creating the bolts out of the blue, but one could assume a gathering of charge were involved. So the channeller gathered a negative or positive potential above Mat. If there already is a thunder cloud above him, this will be unnecessary. What is necessary then to cause a lightning to strike, is to increase the conductivity of the air between the charge concentration and Mat, say by heating it which I think happens in lightning. Anyway, using the Power to create a tunnel of conductivity at least part way from the charge, will cause the lightning to strike in the general direction. It doesn't matter if the tunnel cannot extend right up to Mat.

[Graf Ashaman]

Another explanation could also be that Ravin used the True Power for his attack. I know RJ did not say so but the True power is not stopped by the medaillion. But what I find interesting is what about the gholam? Is the gholam a living thing made from the One Power or maybe the True Power? If so how come channeling does not effect teh gholam but the medaillion does? Any ideas?

[Rational_Solutions]

Another explanation could also be that Ravin used the True Power for his attack. I know RJ did not say so but the True power is not stopped by the medaillion. But what I find interesting is what about the gholam? Is the gholam a living thing made from the One Power or maybe the True Power? If so how come channeling does not effect teh gholam but the medaillion does? Any ideas?

 

The problem with you saying that the medalion doesn't protect Mat from the True Power is unverifiable. Now what we do know from wards is that they can't guard from multiple specialized forms i.g. can't keep shadowspawn and channelers out. But they can be made to generally exclude i.g. everyone or every kind of one thing. I think it is possible to make it so that any "power" can't enter or touch something.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Regarding the electrons/flows of air problem ...

 

 

Perhaps the trap just discharged unguided lightning in multiple directions simultanteously ... by creating an unguided electrical discharge, the channeling would have been involved in only the inital reaction, not the guiding, and therefore been unaffected by the medallion?

[keith_rogers_irl]

Perhaps If someone put it in laymans terms. If you touch a live wire... you die.. and say you were protected from this live wire. touching a live wire off a puddle of water you're standing in will still kill :lol:

I probably just confused alot of people, but I have strange Images in my head at the moment :P

[ONeill]

The lightning channeled by Rahvin probably only killed Mat; because the lightning itself didn't strike Mat, but it struck the ground close by to Mat. Which would suggest that Mat was killed by the explosion of the lightning hitting the ground.

[vikingdriver]

I kinda skipped a few posts after reading the first few. i had this same question come to mind and after reading the books I'm now listening to them on CD and cuaght the answer. Mats medallion protects him against flows of the power being used on him physically. However flows used on another object can be used against Mat. We all assumed that Mat was injured by Lightning but we do not know if he wasn't hurt burt "fallout," from collateral damage.

[Luckers]

We've seen Mat affected by an electrical weave in KoD, my guess is that Graendal is right and all the channeler is doing is insiting electrons to move and creating an attraction around Mat. In many ways its much like the photoelectric effect, only instead of using elctromagnetic waves to grant power to the electrons, the channeler is using the one power, and in some manner making mat into a form of annode.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I considered the collateral damage possibilities, viking and O'neill. The only problem is when I went back and read the encounter again, Mat had smoking tendrils coming from his coat, boots, and the medallion itself. No big chunk of rock from a wall hit by the lightning. No broken neck from being thrown by the explosion. Electrical burns from a direct strike. So, it either has to be a lapse by RJ(unlikely in such an important scene) or the fact that the lightning itself was not the channeling, only the result of channeling, and therefore fell under the indirect attack loophole in the medallion's protection.

[Luckers]

Again, we've seen it work directly in the form of the spark weave used on Mat in KoD, AND it makes sense in terms of the physics behind it. Essentially the channeler is giving some electrons the energy to move, then focusing where it moves to by creating an attraction around Mat... or maybe merely creating a starting point for the lightning, coz once its started moving its not gonna change direction. The latter seems more likely given the complexity of creating an opposite charge on the ground, and the limited knowledge of physics modern channelers have.

 

In many ways its exactly like throwing a rock at him. The channeler gives the rock the power it needs to move, and guides its direction. In the same way the power gives the electron the energy it needs to move, and guides its direction.

[keith_rogers_irl]

In this particular scene doesn't Rhav send down multiple lightning strikes? I remember Rand weaving a shield above them to stop them all. Technically Rhav may not have been aiming for Mat with one particular bolt, but just sent down a myriad of them. A sort of blind tossing in hopes of hitting.

[Mangin]

or maybe merely creating a starting point for the lightning, coz once its started moving its not gonna change direction. The latter seems more likely given the complexity of creating an opposite charge on the ground, and the limited knowledge of physics modern channelers have.

 

I don't believe you can just start a chain reaction and push electrons in a direction and strike a target perhaps a mile away without guiding it to exactly where you want it to go.

 

 

Interestingly, the initial leader does not travel in a smooth, continuous manner but rather in a series of short jumps called steps. This is why the initial leader is called the "stepped leader." During a step, the leader shoots forward about 150 feet, often in a new direction.

Electricity will arc/travel in the path of least resistance. Walls and trees would hold for that theory. The positive or negative chage buildup would peak or travel to the highest point and/or least resistance point on its own. I really doubt Mat or the ground next to Mat would be said path/point.

 

Assuming the modern channelers have no inkling about modern physics (which I believe to be an accurate assumption) still doesn't discount the channelers building up charges at or exactly under the target. Many times we have read about channelers doing things that they don't really know how they do it.

 

I believe that theory to be the most plausible as to what happens. The Power user just builds up the necessary positive and negative charges at the designated spots, unconsciously, and voila! Fricasseed 'Duckling' (or Toy..... or Mat, if you will) with Mat possibly being hit by any of a multitude of branches sparking outwards from the leader.

 

A URL for those interested in lightning... watch out, it is Cliff Clavinesque in its detail.....

 

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3214/02-works.html

[Rational_Solutions]

We've seen Mat affected by an electrical weave in KoD' date=' my guess is that Graendal is right and all the channeler is doing is insiting electrons to move and creating an attraction around Mat. In many ways its much like the photoelectric effect, only instead of using elctromagnetic waves to grant power to the electrons, the channeler is using the one power, and in some manner making mat into a form of annode.[/quote']

 

 

 

Now i just finnished LoC today with the epic battle of Dumai Wells. In this chapter is states that the Aes Sedai in the wagons were making the fire balls and the lightnings stop before they hit something.

 

Now this leads me to belive that you have to contine to weave for the lighning to continue. Due to the fact that the Aes Sedai were obviously slicing the weaves making them cease to exist that they were unable to damage anything.

 

Now, you could argue that they weren't severing the weaves they were just using alternative weaves to dissipate the lightnings i.g. using water or air to snuff out fire ect. But they didn't state that they dissapated they stated that they just ceased to exist. So with that said I am leaning towards RJ making a mistake.

[RobertAlexWillis]

There is nothing that says that the weaves used to create and target lightning at Dumai's Wells are the same weaves that Rahvin used in his trap. Besides, if lightning strikes a shield it "dissipates" so quickly that it would appear to simply "vanish". Lightning is not exactly a slow phenomenon.

[Rational_Solutions]

but assuming that the Aes Sedai were using a shield then they would have been able to just hold eveyone out and there wouldn't have been a battle. They would have just stayed in thier "bubble" to protect them selvs. So i think they either severed the weaves or used another weave.

[ONeill]

quote: Mat had smoking tendrils coming from his coat, boots, and the medallion itself. RobertAlexWillis

 

the lightning strike could always have hit right next to him, thus explaining smoking tendrils comin from his coat, boots and mefallion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rational ... Shields can be pierced, or broken. They probably used a combination of the two, slashing weaves they could spot in time, and raising a shield for those they couldn't. I don't know about you, but I would have a hard time seeing and blocking lightning before it hit. Its moving at the speed of light. Any slashing was probably at the fireballs. Also, remember, after the first couple of minutes, they had a very pissed off Dragon Reborn inside their circle knocking them cold.

 

Oniell ... Yes, the lightning could have struck right next to Mat, killing him indirectly. I just meant it wasn't like when the wall fell on him in Ebou Dar. The lightning didn't hit a building, from which came a rock that hit him, or anything like that. It was an effect from the lightning itself that killed him.

 

Although to make the metal medallion smoke, it would have had to have been VERY close, if it didn't hit him directly.

[Rational_Solutions]

I understand what you are saying RobertAlexWillis. but the point i was trying to get across is that lightning is continually channeld untill it strikes other wise the Aes Sedai wouldn't have been able to stop them before they hit, unless they have a counter-lightning weave.

 

With that being said the lightning shouldn't have been able to touch Mat. Period.

 

Now as for it striking extremely close to Mat, that is highly unlikely. Due to the fact that electricity travels to the path of least resistant and we know that the human body is 80% water which is more conductive that air. So if left to nature the lighning would have been grounded through mat not to mention he had his Ashendari (sp) with its metal tip most likely pointed up.

 

If it did strike extremely close that means that:

1) Rahvin was directing every bolt and

2) Rahvin knew about Mat's medalion.

 

I am not comfortable with either of these statements there are too many flaws if they are the facts.