A clue to Taim

[sonieb33]

Oh, I wanted to post this in addition to mine above.

 

I recall Taim always seemed like he was more than just a regular guy who happens to be able to channel although Logain does share some of the same curious characteristics, there are differences:

 

1. In TSR and LoC he is said to be incredibly strong in the power, nearly as strong as Rand, but so is Logain.

2. According to RJ he's in his late 20's and seemingly hasn't had any effects from the Taint yet, which when I read that seemed strange in itself. But then Logain isn't much younger and he doesn't seem insane either. Rand's insanity came on very quickly.

 

Here's where the similarities end.

3. Unlike Logain he is not left by darkfriends to be gentled by AS. Liandrin of the black ajah rescues him. Why him and not Logain?

4. Taim already knows how to do a lot of things that it seems impossible for him to have figured out on his own. For instance, how not to feel temperatures and how to test men to see if they can channel, etc. We have been given no examples like this with Logain. In fact, we don't really know much about Logain's abilities except that he's strong and a fast learner.

5. It's Taim's idea to train the men as weapons although that's where Rand was probably going with the whole idea anyway, Taim suggests it first.

6. Taim ordered Ashaman to bond AS. (Although Rand told him that he would hold him personally responsible if anything happened to them.)  

_{According to Logain this was an order from Taim that he assumed was from Rand. I've read a commentary where the person believes that this is not true; that Taim did not order it. She bases this upon Evin's exclamation that Taim won't like it. However, the way I read it it seems clear that he's referring to the fact that Taim won't like it that Logain bonded TWO, not that they had done it in the first place. It makes sense to me that Taim just doesn't want Logain's faction to have an advantage.}  

 

And #6 may also be another example of #4. Logain states, right before bonding Toviene, that this is the way they are "taught" to do it. Who taught them? From what I recall the bonding of warders is unknown even in the AoL. The Forsaken seem perplexed by it, just as Taim is puzzled by Alanna's bonding of Rand. This scene, in CoS ch.2 where Rand points right to her without looking and orders Alanna to heal him, is what I think gave Taim the idea.

7. It is fairly clear to me that Taim is the one who sent the grey man so that he could kill him and "save" Rand in LoC ch.28. His reason for coming was absolutely ridiculous. All he came to tell Rand is that they had a new student? Plus, Rand had already captured the assassin and has wanted to question him (can you question a grey man?) but Taim killed him. His excuse for that too was overblown and he seemed to know a little bit too much about how Sammael would have set traps in Illian, although Rand had thought the same thing, Rand also remembered Sammael thanks to LTT.

8. His appearance at Dumais Wells was incredibly too fortuitous and he never explained fully how he found Rand. He said he went to Cairhien and then changed the subject.  

 

...and then of course the rest gets obvious that he's a DF such as him knowing the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" phrase and such.  

 

He can't be a remanufactured Forsaken because the only Forsaken who are dead when Taim comes on the scene is Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, and Ishamael. Taim cannot be any of them because they all have an alibi (Aginor and Balthamel are recycled, Be'lal has been balefired, etc..). Of course that leaves a puppet of one of the Forsaken OR a new Forsaken (Chosen). Unless, he's a remanufacured Forsaken from the AoL which didn't get anihiliated by the DO and who did not get sealed in the bore. RJ DID say that some of the original Forsaken were not sealed in the bore and just died of natural causes and madness. I find this unlikely, although I suppose it's a possibility.  

 

Of course everyone who has looked closely at Taim's character initially thinks he's Demandred because there really is a TON of evidence leading to this conclusion. It seems so obvious, but RJ catagorically said that he absolutely was not.

 

Recently though he has begun to use Moridin's colors and he has the dark aura and stuff (assuming that the dark aura comes from the TP). So that's confusing too.

 

Speaking of colors...and this part is 100% speculation. I noticed that in the beginning Taim used Blue and Gold (the wax on the elaborate message sent to Rand, and the embroidered dragons on his coat both were blue and gold). Maybe it's a mistake (or of no consequence) but he claims, and appears to be Saldean, but the colors for Saldea are blue and silver. I also noticed blue and gold are the same colors that are always coming up with regards to Logain; the colors Min always sees and also the pin he begins to wear (granted these are based on Min's viewing). Also Queen Alliandre of Ghealdan is wearing these colors when she meets with "the Prophet" in TFoH. Logain is a minor noble from Ghealdan. First, I have no idea if the colors for Ghealdan are blue and gold, however, it is a coincidence that both nobles...one being the queen, are wearing them.

Anyway, I'm rambling, again in the Epilogue to KoD Taim, draped over the throne in the Black Tower, is wearing the Blue and Gold embroidered dragons on his sleeves. Literally in EVERY scene where Taim is there's the blue and gold embroidered dragons on his coat.

 

 

[Demiandre]

Liandrin was in Tarabon. No way she could have freed Taim.  Siuan thinks it's Taim's follower who did it. However, we don't see any of them when he shows up in Caemlyn. If he had been using the TP one time (I never caught this about Taim's shadowy aura), I think it would be to free himself from his shield. It's the only way. Sisters died there, yet we don't know how.

 

That's all for the moment.

[sonieb33]

Liandrin was in Tarabon. No way she could have freed Taim. Siuan thinks it's Taim's follower who did it.

 

Thanks, so Joiya lied...I wouldn't put it past her.

 

If he had been using the TP one time (I never caught this about Taim's shadowy aura), I think it would be to free himself from his shield. It's the only way. Sisters died there, yet we don't know how.

 

The black aura doesn't show up until WH, I think, it's the same as the one described Rand has in TGS.

 

 

[Duskfire]

Joiya had to lie; she wouldn't have been able to tell them of an actual plan of the Black Ajah's because her oaths to the Dark One wouldn't have allowed it. Unless her lying about Liandrin was enough to get out the lie... hmmm.

[sonieb33]

Joiya had to lie; she wouldn't have been able to tell them of an actual plan of the Black Ajah's because her oaths to the Dark One wouldn't have allowed it. Unless her lying about Liandrin was enough to get out the lie... hmmm.

 

Yeah, I should have realized...anyway, I think I did better research on the rest of the post. I don't think I relied on any DF for information except that one thing. (Gah! I shoulda' known better!)

[OptimusPrime]

Beware, this is a long post about Moridin being Taim. I think it needs a repost due to some of the new stuff thats been said and for those who recently joined the thread and might have missed it.

 

He can't be a remanufactured Forsaken because the only Forsaken who are dead when Taim comes on the scene is Aginor, Balthamel, Be'lal, and Ishamael. Taim cannot be any of them because they all have an alibi (Aginor and Balthamel are recycled, Be'lal has been balefired, etc..). Of course that leaves a puppet of one of the Forsaken OR a new Forsaken (Chosen). Unless, he's a remanufacured Forsaken from the AoL which didn't get anihiliated by the DO and who did not get sealed in the bore. RJ DID say that some of the original Forsaken were not sealed in the bore and just died of natural causes and madness. I find this unlikely, although I suppose it's a possibility.  

 

I think in Lord of Chaos prologue, the day after Rahvins death, Demandred visits the Dark One and suggests that the Dragon Reborn should be killed. The Dark One, in short, replies with "I'll tell you who lives and who dies." In short, Mazrim Taim the False Dragon is Taim is Taim. And yet I think it is inevitable that the Dark One needed a channeler body to reincarnate Ishamael and issued the command for such a body, and Taim, who is known not only as a False Dragon, not only as an actual channeler, but also to have been captured by Aes Sedai, not only does he provide the PERFECT identity for Ishamael to usurp, he just happens to be in the one place where the Shadow has hundreds of their potentially most valuable, longlasting assets, in the form of Black Ajah Aes Sedai. The perks of Ishamael becoming Taim are almost endless. The world knows he channels, which means Ishamael can be relatively free in where and when he does channel. Aside from that, the fact that the world finds out that Taim escaped is a blow on the White Towers image of competence, and now that Ishamael is in that body, Ishamael having the uber plans of destruction and converting Darkfriend channelers and whatnot, any destruction caused in Taims guise could easily be pointed out to be the fault of Aes Sedai, who had him in their hands but let him go.

 

I think in LoC the Dark One told Demandred that Taim would die and Ishamael would live in his body. Demandred speaks to Mesaana and tells her to get Taim outside, which the Black Ajah assist with; Demandred takes Taim to Shayol Ghul and Taim dies, Ishamaels soul takes his place, and Ishamael is filled in on whats been going on. Demandred mentions that the Dragon Reborn has announced an amnesty for male channelers, and Moridin, who is Ishamael in Taims body, says "We're going to exploit the hell out of that."

 

The key thing I think that is the most questionable about my theory is that I think Moridin uses the True Power to alter his physical appearance. Not an illusion; an actual disguise that will survive physical contact, the True Powers equivalent of Mirror of Mists. (In an interview RJ refused to specify any parallels in the effects the True Power and One Power can achieve, I reckon this is one of the reasons why). I do think there are several hints that the True Power can alter appearances besides this, I posted them earlier. I think Moridin deviates slightly from Taims original appearance by channeling his True Power disguise, the main reason being to keep the [potential] fact that Taim has been usurped by Ishamael known only to the other Forsaken, maybe. And this way, he can also play the Dark Ones game of predicting the selfish, by letting the Darkfriend Ashaman think they are moving up the command chain by being introduced to Demandred and the undisguised version of Moridin who is known to be Ishamael, but not known to be Taims real appearance. Its really confusing and hard to explain....... basically "Taim" recruits and trains Darkfriends, hands them over to Demandred who is the team leader, and the ones who are firmly dark and "under control," or forcibly turned, are then handed over to Moridin, minus the True Power disguise, appearing with Mazrim Taims original face. By this point, anyone who realizes that is the real Taim from before is Dark enough to keep the secret, as demonstrated by "Taims" recruiting and Demandreds training. The ones that have made it that far, to see and know that Taim is actually Moridin, I think are the ones we percieve to be Taims favorites as pointed out by Logain. Im willing to bet that Ishamael-come-Taim is still as clever as ever, possibly singling out a portion of his following deliberately to increase the growing suspision, yet not singling out ALL of them just for the chance of some remaining unnoticed after any sort of "renting in fire and blood."

 

Now a few people have said before, why would the Shadow put more than one Forsaken in one place, why would both Moridin and Demandred be placed at the Black Tower etc. Why on earth would they NOT do that? Dont forget about Osan'gar, he isnt any less Forsaken. They have THREE Forsaken involved with it. Mesaana might have the odd interest if any Black Sisters are there, its a big place on the Shadows map. (Id love it if Alviarin turned up there and started working for/with "Taim" to manage the Aes Sedai bound to Darkfriend Ashaman, to exploit the Compulsion bonds and whatnot...could be awesome). Also remember that Kisman had spoken to both Demandred and Moridin aside from Taim. Its a growing army of male channelers. Two Forsaken with new faces infiltrate, the other coordinates those who passed the tests.

 

The thing is... in TGS, the darkness began to appear around Rand when he became particularly dark. It was not portrayed as an effect of True Power usage at the time the darkness appeared, because Rand used the True Power only once and the darkness appeared several times. Using the True Power I think did influence Rand becoming cuindellar and thus indiretly influenced the dark auras inital appearance though, but it seems clear to me in TGS that when Rands frame of mind became particularly dark or cold, the dark aura appears and things rot.

 

Now it may seem like Im repeating old news but... look for a second at these new cards that have been put on the table:

 

Now, I just saw the following Twitter messages:

@BrandonSandrson Thanks! TGS: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling TP, right? WH, prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

@BrandonSandrson "... shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out. Not real shadows, but..." So... RAFO? :-)

@HBFFerreira You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

 

The black aura doesn't show up until WH, I think, it's the same as the one described Rand has in TGS.

 

Thanks yoniy0 and sonieb33.

 

Taims dark aura doesnt show up until after Rand and Moridin become connected. This might be irrelevent or one of those jumping-to-the-conclusion things, but I dont think it is. We know, or in the very very least have potentially massive hints for, the link between Rand and Moridin having a multitude of effects on both men. It seems very much like they are merging what with Moridin looking like Rand, and flexing the same hand Rand had lost in pain, and with Rand acting like Ishamael. Im on the side that thinks Rand gained True Power access through the link, not by deliberate permission from the Dark One. I think Moridins permission IS Rands permission because whatever aspect of them allows it has become one, existing now in both men with the qualities of both. So the only way to stop Rand from channeling the True Power I think is to deny Moridin access.

 

And yet... Rands dark aura is not there when he channels the True Power, or even because of it directly. Rands Ta'verenism, made negative-only due to his cold mentality, that is the cause. And Taim has the same aura. Could this mean then, that as a side effect, that Moridins will affects the Pattern like Rand does? I could never understand exactly why Maeric died the way he did.

 

Long story short, Moridin thinks his tactic at posing as Taim and controlling Rands Ashaman makes him the superior Sha'rah player because hes playing Rands side as well as his own,hes moving for the red AND the black. But in fact, in becoming one with Rand as a side effect of the link, I think together they are the Fisher King, and when Moridin notes that the game only truly begins when you have control of the Fisher King, that aspect of the game Sha'rah will be represented by the potential Bodyswap. Rand dies, his soul travels through the link into Mazrim Taims original body, this happening after the big reveal that Taim is not Taim anymore. At that instant, where their souls meet, that represents the move to take the Fisher King. His taks is to die to save the world, but they have a trap in place for that whether deliberate or not; the link. The battle of wills between Rand and Moridin in that instant determines who has control over the Fisher King. If Moridin wins, he can maybe present Rands thread to the Dark One somehow. If Rand wins though, he gets Taims body, and even if he doesnt know the True Power disguise weave to pose as "Taim," he has Taims original face, which is known as the Nae'blis and not the recruiter, known as Ishamael returned, giving Rand his own opportunity to control both sides for a change. Thus completion of the Fisher King side thread, with Rand now in a body people have already accepted as having changed identities at least oncen they could handle it happening again. "Ok this face isnt Taim or Moridin anymore its changed again, Im Rand, ask Mat and Perrin to think of Rand al'Thor and they'll see this face now. Trust me."

 

One last thing. I am going to throw another one out there; I think that when Rand channeled the True Power, he might have seen the face he knows as "Taim" but it was blurry. For two reasons. I think the part of Moridin that classes him as a True Power user is also in Rand by that point which means Rand will be aware of Moridin channeling the True Power even though only the user is supposed to. In some ways as of Rand using the True Power, Rand is classed as Moridin in the cases of what he is aware of, which is why the Taim True Power disguise might have shown when Rand channeled the True Power. Its an if, but I really think Taim being Moridin is the Big Unnoticed Thing and Im trying to figure out every little bit and I think it makes sense.  :D

 

Marmite. I think Luckers should add it to the B.U.T theory compilation while he still has the chance before the [.....potential] reveal in the books.

[sonieb33]

@ Drekka Mort, Wow that's a complex theory. My brain hurts now, lol. I'm gonna' have to think on this for a while.

[OptimusPrime]

Its been building up for a while  :D. I cant help but see Ishamael every single time Taim does something that raises our eyebrows. I just think the evidence for it grows constantly.

[Luckers]

Marmite. I think Luckers should add it to the B.U.T theory compilation while he still has the chance before the [.....potential] reveal in the books.

 

PM it to me in the form I've laid out, and I will. I've got four new additions other than this, I've just not had a chance to put them--got about 8 big projects in the work at the moment.

[aunt_pol]

I've always wondered how it is that Moridin is so calm, so relaxed,

when Ishy was mad as a bag of rabid badgers. I can kind of see a

ishy/ taim thing... It's making my head hurt too tho. The problem I see

is that Taim usually seems fit to burst with temper around Rand, while

Moridin can have easy fireside chats with him.

[Mik]

@Drekka;

I go a little further then you even. I think the Nae'Blis has been a mix of Ishamael and a linked fade ever since the War of Power. When Ishamael died at the end of The Dragon Reborn, Shai'tan perfected that link in The Shadow Rising (what an apropriate name!).

You have to think "Slayer"; 2 personalities/bodies that share a single soul.

 

I always believed Shai'tan used Taims body (that became Moridin/ Death) and a Fade body (Shaidar Haran).

And like you, I've always been convinced that when I see "Taim", I'm looking at Ishamael hiding in plain sight...

 

You might want to check out these posts in the Structured WoT Discussion section:

(link) Mazrim Taim - the loose canon (post 1)...and

(link) Mazrim Taim - the loose canon (post 2)

 

And this whole thread (from page 6 onwards):

(link) Equal yet not - page 6

 

I just wanted to give you some more food for thought... (and/or a good laugh ;D)

 

Cheerio & enjoy,

Mik

[Duskfire]

I've always wondered how it is that Moridin is so calm, so relaxed,

when Ishy was mad as a bag of rabid badgers. I can kind of see a

ishy/ taim thing... It's making my head hurt too tho. The problem I see

is that Taim usually seems fit to burst with temper around Rand, while

Moridin can have easy fireside chats with him.

 

Its because Ishamael was mad. His constant usage of the True Power as well as general mental issues drove him insane and allowed him to get killed. But in being transferred to another body he was no longer insane and thus why he now seems calm and controlled. However he still has flashes of anger; in PoD he killed that darkfriend in a fit of random anger.

 

Anyhow, I was never a fan of the Taim/Moridin idea because it just seems to me with the link Moridin has with Rand, there would have been something to tell Rand about it (or at least us.) Not to mention, Kisman recieved three seperate orders: from Demandred, Taim and Moridin. Taim tells him to kill Rand, Moridin tells him to kill Rand if he must but firts priority is Rands possessions. Just seems strange to give two seperate and different orders to the same person.

[aunt_pol]

Dunno bout that... LTT's been mad a good while.... I don't think grabbing a new skin would negate Ishy's madness like that.  Not, and him remaining himself, so to speak.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I've always wondered how it is that Moridin is so calm, so relaxed,

when Ishy was mad as a bag of rabid badgers. I can kind of see a

ishy/ taim thing... It's making my head hurt too tho. The problem I see

is that Taim usually seems fit to burst with temper around Rand, while

Moridin can have easy fireside chats with him.

 

Its because Ishamael was mad. His constant usage of the True Power as well as general mental issues drove him insane and allowed him to get killed. But in being transferred to another body he was no longer insane and thus why he now seems calm and controlled. However he still has flashes of anger; in PoD he killed that darkfriend in a fit of random anger.

 

Anyhow, I was never a fan of the Taim/Moridin idea because it just seems to me with the link Moridin has with Rand, there would have been something to tell Rand about it (or at least us.) Not to mention, Kisman recieved three seperate orders: from Demandred, Taim and Moridin. Taim tells him to kill Rand, Moridin tells him to kill Rand if he must but firts priority is Rands possessions. Just seems strange to give two seperate and different orders to the same person.

 

Yeah, Im just not feeling the Taim/Moridin.

 

As you said, with the link, at one point Rand would see Moridin in his Taim form, because Taim doesnt look anything like Moridin (or Rand would have commented, oh hey, look, Moridin looks exactly like Taim)

 

Plus, they act entirely too different in my opinion. Also, the biggest point, Taim doesnt have the saa in his eyes when Pevera sees him, that would surely be something she would have recognized if he was Moridin.

 

Finally, as you pointed out, Kinsman and such were told to kill Rand, by Taim, by Demandred, but Moridin said, only if you have to. At this point Rand and Moridin are linked, if he was Taim, i doubt he would risk giving the outright order to kill Rand. And in any case, why on earth would he give an order as Taim, then again as Moridin?

 

Unless your suggesting that he became Taim somewhere after KoD, i dont think its possible.

 

 

[yoniy0]

And... we've never known Ishamael OR Moridin to use sai'din (though they of course could, should they choose to). Taim does so all the time.

[Luckers]

And... we've never known Ishamael OR Moridin to use sai'din (though they of course could, should they choose to). Taim does so all the time.

 

Correction. Ishamael used saidin frequently--we see him switch from saidin to the True Power at the end of tDR.

 

Demandred's comment that Moridin seemed to be using only the True Power recently indicates that Moridin too used saidin. The change to using only the True Power is likely a result of the sickening effects the Rand/Moridin link has on using saidin.

 

Not that Moridin is Taim.

[OptimusPrime]

@Drekka;

I go a little further then you even. I think the Nae'Blis has been a mix of Ishamael and a linked fade ever since the War of Power. When Ishamael died at the end of The Dragon Reborn, Shai'tan perfected that link in The Shadow Rising (what an apropriate name!).

You have to think "Slayer"; 2 personalities/bodies that share a single soul.

 

I always believed Shai'tan used Taims body (that became Moridin/ Death) and a Fade body (Shaidar Haran).

And like you, I've always been convinced that when I see "Taim", I'm looking at Ishamael hiding in plain sight...

 

You might want to check out these posts in the Structured WoT Discussion section:

(link) Mazrim Taim - the loose canon (post 1)...and

(link) Mazrim Taim - the loose canon (post 2)

 

And this whole thread (from page 6 onwards):

(link) Equal yet not - page 6

 

I just wanted to give you some more food for thought... (and/or a good laugh ;D)

 

Cheerio & enjoy,

Mik

 

Interesting theory, Ive always wondered if its possible to become connected to a Fade in some way, twould be very interesting to see.  Ive also wondered about Moridin and Shaidars relationship, it wouldnt surprise me if there was some sort of connection. Cheers Mik, I'll be sure to have a look at those threads.

 

Marmite. I think Luckers should add it to the B.U.T theory compilation while he still has the chance before the [.....potential] reveal in the books.

 

PM it to me in the form I've laid out, and I will. I've got four new additions other than this, I've just not had a chance to put them--got about 8 big projects in the work at the moment.

 

Ah, thats cool, I'll send it across at some point. Methinks you do a lot more work than a lot of us realize  :D Thanks.

 

Barid, I was about to reply to your post, but then realized I was only going to say stuff I already have, so I'll just say fair enough. You cant convince everyone about a thing, and its only a theory besides. I was about to disect that last post of yours but I thought better of it as the least I want to do is look like Im trying to force the theory on people.  ;)

 

But I think the fact that a True Power user is the only person that can sense what theyre doing is a small insight onto the link between Rand and Moridin, in the same way people think of Rands wounds as something that gives insight as to the workings of the Cleansing.

[Barid Bel Medar]

@Drekka;

I go a little further then you even. I think the Nae'Blis has been a mix of Ishamael and a linked fade ever since the War of Power. When Ishamael died at the end of The Dragon Reborn, Shai'tan perfected that link in The Shadow Rising (what an apropriate name!).

You have to think "Slayer"; 2 personalities/bodies that share a single soul.

 

I always believed Shai'tan used Taims body (that became Moridin/ Death) and a Fade body (Shaidar Haran).

And like you, I've always been convinced that when I see "Taim", I'm looking at Ishamael hiding in plain sight...

 

You might want to check out these posts in the Structured WoT Discussion section:

(link) Mazrim Taim - the loose canon (post 1)...and

(link) Mazrim Taim - the loose canon (post 2)

 

And this whole thread (from page 6 onwards):

(link) Equal yet not - page 6

 

I just wanted to give you some more food for thought... (and/or a good laugh ;D)

 

Cheerio & enjoy,

Mik

 

Interesting theory, Ive always wondered if its possible to become connected to a Fade in some way, twould be very interesting to see.  Ive also wondered about Moridin and Shaidars relationship, it wouldnt surprise me if there was some sort of connection. Cheers Mik, I'll be sure to have a look at those threads.

 

Marmite. I think Luckers should add it to the B.U.T theory compilation while he still has the chance before the [.....potential] reveal in the books.

 

PM it to me in the form I've laid out, and I will. I've got four new additions other than this, I've just not had a chance to put them--got about 8 big projects in the work at the moment.

 

Ah, thats cool, I'll send it across at some point. Methinks you do a lot more work than a lot of us realize  :D Thanks.

 

Barid, I was about to reply to your post, but then realized I was only going to say stuff I already have, so I'll just say fair enough. You cant convince everyone about a thing, and its only a theory besides. I was about to disect that last post of yours but I thought better of it as the least I want to do is look like Im trying to force the theory on people.  ;)

 

But I think the fact that a True Power user is the only person that can sense what theyre doing is a small insight onto the link between Rand and Moridin, in the same way people think of Rands wounds as something that gives insight as to the workings of the Cleansing.

 

Ill respect that.

 

Of course, your theory could well be right, i dont think there is any definite evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

Guess its RAFO