Have the forsaken lived up to their billing?

[Musenge]

A friend of mine says no. He says when you compare what they did in the war of power as described in the guide and compare it to now they seem tame.

 

I think otherwise.

 

During the war of power they had a few 100 years to prepare (well Ishy and Graendal did) and the war fall took 100 years and the war 10

 

This time it's only been about 2 years since they were freed and look what they've managaed.

 

Graendal has ruined Arad Doman and I reckon she probably started the war with Tarabon before the Seanchan even showed up. By kidnapping the rulers of Shara she probably brought chaos there too.

 

Semirage has broken Seanchan empire which is now fighting itself, and murdered the entire ruling family.

 

Asmodean ruined any chance of unity with the Aiel and lessened their fighting numbers dramatically by giving Coulladin dragons.

 

Messana has divided the Tower rendering it ineffectual and unable to do much while fighting itself. Also probably behind the kidnapping of Rand.

 

Sammael did ok for a while by openly ruling Illian and I liked his brash style. He also sowed chaos with the Shaido by sending them everywhere and turning nations against Rand because of the rampaging Aiel. If not for Rand's Tairen grain Illain would be facing mass starvation because of him.

 

Balthamel/Aran Gar/Halima was busy fiddling with Egwene though I gotta say, not very succesfully. She had the Salidar Aes Sedai divided for a while and tried to ruin any chance of joining the Asha man by offing a few Aes Sedai.

 

Aginor/Osan Gar/Dashiva was probably behind the attack on Rand in Cairhein and may be behind the darkfriend Asha man. Yeah I know people blame this on Taim but what would be the point of Taim being the big evil when Aginor was already there? I reckon Aginor compelled Taim or at least bossed him. There was no way he could go making new shadowspawn in 2 short years without any equipment in a primitive age. He did good before dying.

 

Ishamel had a lot longer to work with and caused the trolloc wars, ruined Hawkwings empire and did much more. He set up the black ajah and sent trollocs against the two rivers. I think he did alright. As Morridin he is trying to unite the other forsaken

 

Demandred is the only one who nobody is sure of. We have no clue as to where he is or what he's doing. It will probably be left as a big suprise for the last book. I'd like that.

 

 

 

Now the flops

 

Moghedien was a dissapointment though. Didn't do anything beyond bullying the black ajah with Liandrin. No idea what Morridin has her doing now.

 

Lanfear was poor too. I think they could have killed some folks in the world of dreams like they did in the old days and actually manipulated dreams like Ba Almazon did with Rand in the first two books. That would have led to crazyness and suicide on a big scale. Lanfear instead helped Rand which makes her a poor baddy imo. I have no idea what Cydane is doing now so I can't comment on that.

 

Be Lal didn't get to do much netweaving before Moiraine killed him and he might as well not have been there.

 

Rahvin had Andor, the biggest, richest and most powerful nation in his grasp and did nothing beyond removing certain troops. No mass killings, no slaughters no turning folks to the shadow... nothing! Given the Chaos Rand and Tom sparked in Cairhien without even trying, Rahvin should have done more to Andor.

 

Do you think they have been evil enough? Or the Forsaken should have done more?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Far too much was expected from the Foresaken. They are 3000 years removed from the world they are used to operating in.

[Luckers]

Agreed. They have done some good stuff, but they are still merely human.

[Victoria Gwyn]

Thinking about this, I think that if they had been as strong and with it as they were in the "old days" they would have too overpowered our heroes/heroines and the books wouldn't have been as appealing.

 

But, it would nice to see a little more....movement...from the female forsaken in this last book.

[Graendals favourite]

Also, save for Ishamael, the Forsaken haven't been thinking about how to win the Last Battle. They have been getting themselves in to good positions for after the Last Battle is inevitably won. That, and following the DO's direct orders. While they've done stuff that looks good in the DO's eyes, it's not like they been acting as a unified front. Also, there are far fewer of them as in the War of the Power, there were some hundred of them at some stage I recall. Though of course these thirteen were among to best, the ones at the top who had been summoned to that fateful meeting at Shayol Ghul.

[dimmu666]

i got a problem. See if Rand the DR is the equivalent of the Nae'Blis (agent of the creator vs agent of the DO) then who the hell is gonna get the DO? The creator doesn't go jacksh** but the DO is totally screwing things up. So how can Rand be the equal of the DO if hes the equivalent of the creator?....see my point?

 

I think the creator needs to play some sorta role in TG because it just wouldn't be fair then yeah if Rand has to take on Moridin and the DO by himself. Well unless RJ means for the creator to be himself and which he can go "and I, Robert Jordan the creator of you all says die Dark One" and poof hes gone....

 

ok so you get my point yeah? its not really fairplay

[Lews Therin Telamon]

dimmu666 who do you think rand will fight in the last battle? rand will be stronger in the one power than moridin by now plus hes got the ta veren twist and all the angreal hes found. moridin vs rand will be a really good fight but rand will win

[KaptainKaos]

I'm not at all sure how the Last Battle will be fought but there is one thing that could put Rand up to destroying not only Moridin but all of Taim's boys and from what Lanfear says maybe even the Dark One himself. The Choedan Kal, Rand still possesses the ter'angreal to access the one for saidin and if you remember Lanfear's rantings to Rand about being able to destroy the Creator and the Dark One with both. It seems to me that if Rand possesses the ter'angreal at the Last Battle it may kill him but he could conceivably defeat all of his foes with just this one weapon.

[Seldy]

The Forsaken's own greed defeated them. They were all wary of Rand, especially after the deaths of a few Forsaken. All of them wanted to be Nae'blis, but they didn't want to get balefired into nothingness. So they went and established their own power bases in cities across Randland. That made it easy for Rand to go and pick a few of them off. Then the Forsaken get told not to kill Rand, so what are they supposed to do?

[Sila Darklover]

Does it matter that Moghedien ripped Birgitte out of the "legend cycle" and into the waking world? :?

[Guest cwestervelt]

KaptainKaos: I'm not at all sure how the Last Battle will be fought but there is one thing that could put Rand up to destroying not only Moridin but all of Taim's boys and from what Lanfear says maybe even the Dark One himself. The Choedan Kal, Rand still possesses the ter'angreal to access the one for saidin and if you remember Lanfear's rantings to Rand about being able to destroy the Creator and the Dark One with both. It seems to me that if Rand possesses the ter'angreal at the Last Battle it may kill him but he could conceivably defeat all of his foes with just this one weapon.

 

Lanfear's assessments of what is possible and not are rather questionable. She had a major god complex coupled that made her seriously delusional.

[KaptainKaos]

It's true Lanfear was and is more than ever as Cydane questionably insane but the original purpose of the Choedan Kal was to hold back the Dark One and his minions at Shayol Ghul until a safe way of completely sealing the Bore could be found. This was just never able to be tested because the access ter'angreal were lost. I am just saying that there is a possibility of Rand being able to use this tool and it could go as far as him being able to defeat the Dark One or anything the Dark One throws at him with this tool because we don't know what it is capable of. I'm not sure that he will even use the Choedan Kal again though because of many factors but at least if something comes along that it looks like Rand has no chance of living through like Taim and his continually growing power base at the Black Tower or Moridin with his knowledge and ability to use saidin and the Dark One's True Power at least the ter'angreal is always there as a possible balance or overbalance. When you look at it that way there might be a lot of forces against the Light but at least there is a hope for Rand and the others in the fight against the Dark One.

[Victoria Gwyn]

I wondered that, too, Sila (please forgive me as I do not see a title for you. I hope I wasn't supposed to use one!) and here is my theory.

 

If someone can be ripped out, perhaps they can also be woven back in. Though it might be that she'll never reunite with her love again. And I sure hope her role increases in this last book. I truly like Birgitte.

[Rumor]

Forgive me if I'm wrong (and please correct me), but I thought that (unless RJ has said otherwise) the only person's word on what was done to Birgitte that we have to go on is the Spider's...so there's nothing to say she didn't boast she could do something she can't (as in rip somebody from the Pattern) and then just make it seem as if that's what she's done. Sure, Birgitte's convinced that this is what happened as well, but she could be taking Spidey's word for it too - that she made good on her threat. To me, Birgitte was removed into the world, but is still a part of the Pattern...and there's no reason the Wheel can't Weave her back to the way she was.