The Attack on Algarin's Manor (Re-Post for DMDB)

[Charlz Guybon]

If you have one hundred myrddraal, why not have them all pop out of the shadows in the mannor at the same time? Surely that would have been more effective than wasting 100,000 Trollocs along with them.

 

Come on now Charlz, that would've been too practical of a plan for the characters of this series to come up with ;)

Of course, they may have assumed he warded the manor against that.

 

Not if Moridin himself sent the attack, as Moridin knows each time Rand uses Saidin because of their bizarre mental linkage.  If Rand set a ward Moridin could know what he was doing, as long as Moridin's face pops up in Rand's mind.   I suspect even Moridin needs to see weaves to be able to read them.

I really don't think Moridin is that aware of what Rand is doing. It's not like Rand has seen specifically what Moridin is doing.

[Luckers]

Fain doesn't have anything to do with Machin Shin. He survived his encounter with it because of his connection with Mordeth, but Machin Shin took its orders from Ishamael.

 

No it didn't. The fact that Trollocs have died at Machin Shin's hands proves the Shadow has no control over it. Fain doesn't either, for that matter, but Fain did impress something of his connection to Rand on Machin Shin which was why it waited for him at the Waygates.

 

Luckers, Rand would not choose death at the hands of the trollocs when he could channel once and escape. Even if he would, the forsaken would never believe it. The concept is too foreign to them. If anything they would believe Rand would make a hasty escape with as many people as possible and have the deaths of everybody else on his conscience. This would push him into a darker mood and leave the possibility that some of his close companions would die or that he would leave something important behind in his escape. 

 

The Forsaken know his feelings about women. He would not abandon a woman to die. Even if they doubted the sincerity of that, to suggest that they relied utterly on the thought that he wouldn't is highly problematic.

 

Tell me this, Mike, if this Forsaken planned this out to simply make him flee (for whatever random benefit they might attain from that), then why didn't they consider that instead of fleeing he might simply pull the Choedan Kal and nuke the pitiful hundred thousand Trollocs? They'd just had their asses handed to them by Rand's seeming foresight, why would they make this mistake? Hold that thought in your mind.

 

The attack was too big to just let him know his location was known, but it was not an attack directed at a channeler with the intent to kill. If it was then the gholam would have been there first, or slayer.

 

Or the hundred thousand Trollocs with a few channelers to protect them long enough to get in kill range. That's the point, this attack was clumsy. But it was clumsy both as an attempt to kill and an attempt to draw Rand out or any of the other suggestions. It was just plain clumsy.

 

As such Taim or Cyndane. Or possibly Moghedian, though her motive is weaker.

[Ataxia]

Maybe Taim was trying to find out where Rand was because his Trollocs were getting killed in the Ways? Maybe he had way more then 100k but by the time he found him, most were killed.

 

Edit- I know Logain took the men loyal to him away from the tower, but what about the neutrals? Are they still there? Taim cant let him trollocs hide there because of the inspections and neutrals. So where else can he hide them besides the ways?

[MikeRiley]

 

Tell me this, Mike, if this Forsaken planned this out to simply make him flee (for whatever random benefit they might attain from that), then why didn't they consider that instead of fleeing he might simply pull the Choedan Kal and nuke the pitiful hundred thousand Trollocs? They'd just had their asses handed to them by Rand's seeming foresight, why would they make this mistake? Hold that thought in your mind.

 

The amount of trollocs there would have overwhelmed the manor and cut Rand off from a number of people. Rand would only leave if he saw nothing could be done anymore. If he had a choice of a trolloc sword in his back because his room was surrounded and being filled by trollocs, he would travel away. He would hate it, but he would do it. Hell, he might only travel a short distance away and double back but by then the attack would have served its purpose and the manor's inhabitants would have been dealt with.

 

If you want to look at his use of the Choedan Kal then it's also clear that the attack was only meant to draw his attention. Anybody who sent that would have known of Rand's recent accomplishment and what he was capable of. I still believe the attack's purpose was to make Rand flee and to kill as many people in the manor as possible.

 

Your response that Machin Shin wasn't given orders is something I can see, but it doesn't explain how Liandrin knew she would be safe in the Ways. There is some way to keep a rein on Machin Shin and Liandrin knew of it at a time right after Rand slipped away from Ishamael's trap, when it'd be the most likely time for Ishamael to set the wind as a guard against his further use. Liandrin had forsaken help with that paper she used and she had to have had some assurance that the Black Wind would not harm her party.

[Cirin]

I think you guys are reading too much into this.  Clearly this was just a random encounter to get Rand some extra XP before having to deal with the Seanchan and Semirhage.  Plus likely a level or two for the random soldiers that survived the attack.

[bobothebarbarian]

Fain doesn't have anything to do with Machin Shin. He survived his encounter with it because of his connection with Mordeth, but Machin Shin took its orders from Ishamael.

 

No it didn't. The fact that Trollocs have died at Machin Shin's hands proves the Shadow has no control over it. Fain doesn't either, for that matter, but Fain did impress something of his connection to Rand on Machin Shin which was why it waited for him at the Waygates.

that is a thought that never hit me but it makes perfect sense

 

 

[Stubby]

Why is this still a mystery?

 

KoD Chapter 3. Forsaken meeting.

 

Moridin wants noone but him to harm Rand. He orders the others to leave Rand alone and find Perrin and Mat. Aran'gar/Balthamel thinks Moridin is going to be disappointed about Rand.

 

Pretty much screams that he sent the Trollocs to the manor.

[Luckers]

Why is this still a mystery?

 

KoD Chapter 3. Forsaken meeting.

 

Moridin wants noone but him to harm Rand. He orders the others to leave Rand alone and find Perrin and Mat. Aran'gar/Balthamel thinks Moridin is going to be disappointed about Rand.

 

Pretty much screams that he sent the Trollocs to the manor.

 

Umm... you may have missed the part in that chapter where Aran'gar wonders whether Demandred sent the Trollocs.

 

Aran'gar may have plans for Rand that will surprise Moridin, but the attack on Algarin's mannor was not one of them.

[DemandredFO]

Mike, Liandrin is BA, she was bluffing for the girl's sakes.  Had Machin Shin come she probably would've frozen like a rabbit

[Duskfire]

Even Aran`gar thinks Demandred is responsible for everything! :P

 

 

[MikeRiley]

Mike, Liandrin is BA, she was bluffing for the girl's sakes.  Had Machin Shin come she probably would've frozen like a rabbit

 

I don't think she was bluffing. She spoke with contempt and she did have notes saying which turns to make. It's easier to believe she was given assurance that the Black Wind would not bother them, and of course we know that at that time the Black Wind was guarding the Ways against Rand.

[Stubby]

Why is this still a mystery?

 

KoD Chapter 3. Forsaken meeting.

 

Moridin wants noone but him to harm Rand. He orders the others to leave Rand alone and find Perrin and Mat. Aran'gar/Balthamel thinks Moridin is going to be disappointed about Rand.

 

Pretty much screams that he sent the Trollocs to the manor.

 

Umm... you may have missed the part in that chapter where Aran'gar wonders whether Demandred sent the Trollocs.

 

Aran'gar may have plans for Rand that will surprise Moridin, but the attack on Algarin's mannor was not one of them.

 

I went to the library to get the book again. Chapter 3 At the Gardens

Ok I missed it. Or did I? Perhaps you could point out the page, because I can't find anything about Aran'gar thinking about Demandred and the Trollocs.

 

You are quite dismissive without providing proof.

 

 

[Luckers]

"That sounds like Sammael," Demandred said thoughtfully, twisting his goblet and studying the swirling wine. "Perhaps I was mistaken." A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. [Aran'gar] would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive.

 

The inference is clear. If she is wondering whether Demandred did it, then she did not.