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The Sylvase Theory (Re-Post For DMDB)


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The Sylvase is Cyndane Theory

 

Edit: Unfortunately in a recent Q&A Brandon pretty much put this theory in the trash. The report seems pretty reliable, but I'm gonna leave this up here anyway for the fact that people will probably still talk about it.

 

11. TheWindRose asked. Are there any forsaken around Elayne? Brandon paused for a moment, then said. So many people are trying to figure out where Demandred is, I am not sure I can answer that. Forkroot and I both said no not Demandred, we were talking Cyndane or Moghedian. Then we said for example some postulate that Sylvaese is Cyndane. he said "no, sylvaese is not a forsaken and was never intended to be.

 

The idea that Sylvase has been replaced by Cyndane began with the similarities in their descriptions. Both women are short, with silvery-blond hair and an icy demeanor. At the beginning she is described as being stupid, but notice the sequence of the descriptions of her—take note of the descriptions of her prettiness, and her stupidity.

 

Descriptions

 

Firstly Elenia.

his eyes sought through the shadowed crowd on horseback behind her, and his face relaxed when he found Sylvase, his granddaughter and heir, a sturdy, placid young woman who met his gaze, unsmiling, then pulled her dark, fur-lined cowl well forward. She never smiled or frowned or showed any emotion at all that Elenia had ever detected, just kept an unvarying cowlike expression. Plainly, she had a cow’s wits, too.

 

Elenia clearly dismisses her, yet just a bit later when Arymilla offers her maid to Nasin (Sylvase’s ‘grandfather’) Elenia is unnerved by Sylvase’s reaction.

Suddenly all lickspittles and toad-eaters were adjusting their cloaks against the wind or snugging their gloves, looking anywhere except at Arymilla’s maid. Especially the women. One of them could have been chosen as easily, and they knew it. Oddly, Sylvase did not look away. It was impossible to see her face in the shadows of her hood, but the opening turned to follow the slender woman.

 

So—vapid, sturdy and not very pretty—yet Elenia is still unnerved by her. This description is further supported by Arymilla’s position

 

"If Luan and the others will not support you, what good will taking Caemlyn do?" Sylvase, Nasin's granddaughter and heir, spoke so seldom that the question came as a shock. Sturdy, and not quite pretty, she usually had a vapid gaze, but her blue eyes appeared quite sharp at the moment. Everyone stared at her. That seemed not to faze her a bit. She toyed with a wine cup, but Arymilla thought it no more than her second.

 

[the scene goes on for bit, Arymilla dismissed her, and Nasin agrees, and then...]

 

"As you say, Grandfather," Sylvase murmured, inclining her head briefly. When she straightened, her gaze was as insipid as ever. The sharpness must have been a trick of the light, of course.

 

Vapid. Sturdy. Not bright. Yet both Arymilla and Elenia are unnerved by small displays of will. But now consider Elayne’s description of her, and how it differs.

 

Then two Guardsmen appeared with a woman a little older than Elayne, in simple blue, a woman she thought she recognized. A single enameled brooch, a red star and silver sword on glittering black, appeared to be her only jewelry. But why was Sylvase Caeren being brought to her? A pretty woman with  alert blue eyes that held steady on Elayne's face, she was Lord Nasin's heir, not the High Seat of Caeren.

 

Pretty. Sharp blue eyes. Intelligent.

 

So clearly Sylvase has hidden her intelligence from  Arymilla and Elenia, and even though they see signs of it, they dismiss it. Because they dismiss her. The odd note is that Elayne describes Sylvase as pretty, whilst Elenia and Arymilla call her sturdy and ‘not quite pretty’. So, either Elayne is more generous than they are—or they are being dismissive, which they have a precedent for doing about Sylvase.

 

In the end though we have Sylvase who is short, with silvery blond hair, and blue eyes—who is described to show no emotions, and to be cold and hard. Arymilla and Elenia describe her as ‘not quite pretty’, but Elayne disagrees. Elenia and Arymilla also describe her as stupid, and vapid—which she is not. Then we have Cyndane—also short, with silver blond hair and sharp blue eyes and a cold demeanor. She, however, is described by Graendal as very pretty and doll-like.

 

Circumstance

 

Consider the roll Caraen plays in supporting Arymilla. They are the only house to whole heartedly do so, and the first house to support Arymilla. It is with their support that Arymilla is able to assert her claim.  Sylvase is present in this from the beginning—supposedly a hostage, though Nasin in truth is acting to support Arymilla because he thinks she is his daughter. Consider, though, the reality of that—it drives the most powerful westland nation into civil war. A move in which Sylvase’s house is the core, acting under an utterly delusional belief. Yes—I’m suggesting compulsion.

 

Then, when Arymilla is caught by Elayne, Nasin conveniently suffers a seizure, allowing Sylvase to step forward, placing her again near the heart of power in Andor.  And it is very convenient—almost as convenient for Elayne as Nasin’s absurd beliefs about Arymilla were convenient for Arymilla.

 

The Cabriana Element

 

In reference to the old idea that Cyndane is in Cabriana's old body, this quote is interesting.

 

Then two Guardsmen appeared with a woman a little older than Elayne, in simple blue, a woman she thought she recognized.

 

It's weird that Elayne thought she recognized Sylvase because she also states she's never met her, and knew little about her. Meanwhile Cabriana was in the Tower during Elayne's stay (which we know through Halima's cover story). From there the loss of the Agelessness explains why Elayne would think she recognized Cabriana's body, but didn't--much in the same way Siuan seems familiar, but not enough to recognize.

 

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I figure Graendal has the highest standards of all when it comes to looks.  If she says Cyndane is "very pretty" you'd have to imagine anyone else would call her beautiful.  That being said, "Sylvase" is awful close to "Silvie", who Lanfear masqueraded as back in book 3.

 

I like the Cabriana angle more.  We've heard a lot about Semirhage turning people to the Shadow through sheer torture instead of Compulsion or other means, but we haven't seen any of that yet so it fits, as someone under that level of strain would be expected to fade in and out like Sylvase from an intelligence standpoint, like a soldier with PTSD.  You'd have to imagine Cabriana was stilled though, because there was no Oath rod handy to remove her oaths and the Agelessness-look.  That would limit her usefulness a bit, but maybe.

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I figure Graendal has the highest standards of all when it comes to looks.  If she says Cyndane is "very pretty" you'd have to imagine anyone else would call her beautiful.

 

Elayne seems to agree, and Arymilla and Elenia aren't the most reliable sources--additionally she could be making minor changes to herself to make her less noticeable, much as she did as Selene.

 

I like the Cabriana angle more.  We've heard a lot about Semirhage turning people to the Shadow through sheer torture instead of Compulsion or other means, but we haven't seen any of that yet so it fits, as someone under that level of strain would be expected to fade in and out like Sylvase from an intelligence standpoint, like a soldier with PTSD.  You'd have to imagine Cabriana was stilled though, because there was no Oath rod handy to remove her oaths and the Agelessness-look.  That would limit her usefulness a bit, but maybe.

 

There are some problems with that. Firstly, if this theory about Sylvase's suspect nature is true then the One Power was involved--first to insert Sylvase into House Careane, then to direct Nasin's confusion into supporting Arymilla, then to cause Nasin's seizure and force the rest of House Careane to rattify Sylvase as High Seat.

 

Secondly, even if we ignored all that, why insert a broken, former Aes Sedai (and one previously lightbound at that) into such an important job. Surely there were better candidates--Mili Skane for one. Indeed, Semirhage's broken councilors did not work as double agents--she states that each one announced their alleigence to the Shadow.

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I don't think it's ever said in the books that Sylvase has silver hair.

 

In any case, if one of Moridin's pets would pose as Sylvase, she would most likely use a MoM. Besides that, I think it would make more sense that Moghedien poses as Sylvase, because she is the more experienced a spy, compared to Lanfear/Cyndane.

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I really like this theory.  It makes a lot of sense.  At first, the Elenia and Arymilla descriptions of her threw me off a bit.  But I have to agree with the evidence.  The timing also makes sense, with Semirhage killing Cabriana and providing a body for Lanfear.  I was always wondering how Nasin could be so addled and yet powerful at the same time.

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As for Cyndane being "very pretty" and Sylvase only being called pretty by Elayne - Arymilla and Elenia might just not see it because if she's really got this dull "cow-like" look on her face most of the time when she's around them, that probably wouldn't be particularly attractive. She probably looks much prettier when she looks alert and sharp.

 

Further, she could always be making herself look worse as a disguise, whether with the One Power or even just with makeup and wearing slightly unflattering clothing. We've seen Lanfear use the OP to tone down her beauty a bit before when she was Selene - granted, in that case she was still really pretty, but I know that when she finally showed her true form to Rand in tSR it definitely made his jaw drop, and he thinks she is more beautiful than she had been as Selene.

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I don't buy into this at all. I would be very surprised if this ended up being true.

 

Sylvase was dismissed by the Elenia. The biggest problem is that I don't consider Elenia to be the best judge of character around. After all, this is the same person that thinks Elaine had no tough decisions while in the palace and came up with the idea to have a guided coach made.

 

Sylvase is the heir to the largest house in Andor while the current high seat of the house is mad. He has her "protected" since he knows he won't be around much longer. Then she ends up as a guest to Elenia, who is probably best described as a twit. As heir, her best protection is to allow others to perceive her as less than what she is. By acting "slow of wit", which is a form of deception common in Poker, people around her won't even pay attention to her actions which is exactly what Elania does. So when she does act, her actions surprise and confuse those that have taken her as being slow of wit. Keeping up the mask is the hard part of the ploy especially when you're not slow of wit. So every once in a while Elenia did something so vile that Sylvase lost the mask for a few minutes.

 

If I were in that situation, my objective would be to stay alive and survive. My cousins have already committed to affirming me as the high seat so there is no need to prove myself to anyone. (You have to love the concept of nobility. I was born to do this so you HAVE to pick me!) The only thing standing in the way is a fight for the crown of Andor. Since my mad grandfather got me into a bad situation, it would be best to stay low key until the situation changes. It did and the first thing I did was make sure the person everyone is afraid of ended up in my employment and declare my support for a person that will make a good queen and end the conflict in Andor, Elaine.

 

My problem with Lanfear (Cyndane) being involved at all is that Sylvase would be closely watched and Cyndane wouldn't have the time from her "other duties" to always be around. (I consider that Sylvase is a prisoner in all but name.)

 

 

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The main reason I don't like this is because it hasn't born any fruit yet.  Sylvase essentially lets her House back a poor candidate for the Lion Throne...to what end?  Not very much seems to have been accomplished from this.  Elayne went on to secure the throne, and seemingly had a very quiet month following it until Mat shows up.  I remember Lanfear's indignant rage at finding out that Aviendha had slept with Rand-surely she hasn't grown more reasonable since then.  Lanfear wouldn't just let her continue to be Queen of Andor, she'd turn her into scrambled eggs.

 

With two books left, having a Forsaken pose a single minor character doesn't seem likely because she's been at it for 3 months with zero results.  Unless she's got body doubles to stand in for her, she has to have been Sylvase nearly non-stop for that time or else someone would get suspicious that she keeps disappearing and reappearing.  Maybe she's getting around that with massive uses of Compulsion, but if she's willing to use that much of it, something should have come out of it by now.

 

I understand that not many of the Forsaken meet the "Competency" check when we're investigating their supposed motives and identities-the story has required serious cases of incompetence in order for the heroes to have any success.  Still, with Moridin directing traffic and having direct authority for everything that Cyndane is doing, you'd expect a lot more success than whatever this Sylvase plan would have supposedly yielded.  I much prefer that the way she's written is so that she can have her ascension scene where she meets Elayne and takes control of her House, rather than to depict that she's suspicious in some manner.

 

The entire theory is based on a similar description and some inconsistencies with how she's viewed as a character.  It's completely missing the purpose of the deception.  Why pose as Sylvase?  Why is Cyndane supporting Arymilla rather than a stronger candidate for the throne?  Why does she offer the services of her "secretary" to Elayne?  Why bother announcing her support for Elayne after the failure of Arymilla?

 

It's a rather large void.  In the past, we've seen Be'lal, Graendal, Sammael, and Rah'vin all assume alternate identities so that they could rule kingdoms.  Semirhage assumed an alternate identity in order to manipulate a very powerful leader.  Mesaana assumed an alternate identity in order to spy on goings in the tower, and to help engineer a WT schism.  

 

Cyndane is Sylvase so that she can....slightly delay the Andoran re-unification?  I can't consider this theory viable until there's a reasonable explanation for her goals.

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I understand that not many of the Forsaken meet the "Competency" check when we're investigating their supposed motives and identities-the story has required serious cases of incompetence in order for the heroes to have any success.  

 

Dude, its the ta'veren effect. It justifies everything :)

 

Cyndane is Sylvase so that she can....slightly delay the Andoran re-unification?  I can't consider this theory viable until there's a reasonable explanation for her goals.

 

Maybe she's positioning herself to strike at Rand's babies, or at the Battle of Caemlyn, or both.

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Maybe she's positioning herself to strike at Rand's babies, or at the Battle of Caemlyn, or both.

 

That's pure supposition, and it doesn't seem justified since she could have simply decorated Elayne's walls with her entrails already, fairly easily.  Seriously, once she's in the palace, what's to prevent from opening an inverted Gate in Elayne's room at 2 AM and just squashing her in her sleep?

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I think what also rather points to Moghedien (and not Cyndane) being Sylvase is that we positively know that Moghedien is involved with the BA and DF in Caemlyn. We also know that Moghedien spent some time in Tarabon in TSR, which would better explain how "Sylvase" came into contact with the Taraboner torturer Jaq Lounalt, who might be a DF then. Finally Moghedien is described as "sturdily handsome" in her true appearance and when she is disguised as the servant Gyldin. This fits with Slyvase, who is also described as "sturdy" and "pretty". Plus, it would better explain why Elayne thinks that Slyvase seems familiar to her or that she recognizes her somehow: Elayne saw Moghedien, but not Cyndane.

 

The first point also fits with Graendal's thoughts that "Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionally showed their faces there [south of the Blight]. They spent their time rallying the Darkfriends and occasionally trying to follow Moridin's orders that the two ta'veren — Perrin Aybara and Matrim Cauthon — be killed." Cyndane is probably rallying DF somewhere else, e.g. in her PoV in WH just before the Cleansing starts, maybe in the Borderlands.

 

Of course, Graendal apparently doesn't seem to believe that any of them poses as Sylvase, so Sylvase might also just be a DF e.g. under the thumb of either Moghedien or maybe Cyndane, after all.

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Maybe she's positioning herself to strike at Rand's babies, or at the Battle of Caemlyn, or both.

 

This touches on my biggest problem with Cyndane/Lanfear being Sylvase....if you are Moridin, would you put Cyndane/Lanfear anywhere near Elayne unless it was for an immediate kill?  You know you can't trust her near one of Rand's women.

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Do people even know about Elayne and Rand?  I thought the whole act with that DF captain Hanlon/Mellar was to hide her association with Rand.  This would set up an interesting climax if Sylvase is Lanfear and it becomes known Elayne is carrying Rand's babies.

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I think I like this theory. 

 

We know that at the end of KOD Elayne was kidnapped by a woman who was recieving orders from Moridin (Shiaine). 

 

We also are led to believe that Shiaine is on orders to kill Elayne (from Hanlon's thoughts in COT CH 15).  I think having Shiaine influencing people in one direction and Sylvase pulling houses in the other makes perfect sense.

 

Do we know where, in relation to Caemlyn, the Black Tower is located?  I've only seen 'a day's ride' out of the city with no indicated direction. 

 

Maybe she was being brought to the Black Tower?

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Maybe she's positioning herself to strike at Rand's babies, or at the Battle of Caemlyn, or both.

 

This touches on my biggest problem with Cyndane/Lanfear being Sylvase....if you are Moridin, would you put Cyndane/Lanfear anywhere near Elayne unless it was for an immediate kill?  You know you can't trust her near one of Rand's women.

 

Cyndane is Mind Trapped, she would never, ever dare to go against one of Moridin's orders.

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Maybe she's positioning herself to strike at Rand's babies, or at the Battle of Caemlyn, or both.

 

This touches on my biggest problem with Cyndane/Lanfear being Sylvase....if you are Moridin, would you put Cyndane/Lanfear anywhere near Elayne unless it was for an immediate kill?  You know you can't trust her near one of Rand's women.

 

Cyndane is Mind Trapped, she would never, ever dare to go against one of Moridin's orders.

 

It depends on which is greater - her desire to go on living (with some sort of free will/consciousness/soul) - or her obsessive love/hate of Rand. Lanfear may be just psycho enough to do it.

 

Though I will say she may suspect Elayne is carrying Rand's kids as she did know that Elayne and Rand had a thing going on in Tear back in tSR.

 

I think what also rather points to Moghedien (and not Cyndane) being Sylvase is that we positively know that Moghedien is involved with the BA and DF in Caemlyn. We also know that Moghedien spent some time in Tarabon in TSR, which would better explain how "Sylvase" came into contact with the Taraboner torturer Jaq Lounalt, who might be a DF then. Finally Moghedien is described as "sturdily handsome" in her true appearance and when she is disguised as the servant Gyldin. This fits with Slyvase, who is also described as "sturdy" and "pretty". Plus, it would better explain why Elayne thinks that Slyvase seems familiar to her or that she recognizes her somehow: Elayne saw Moghedien, but not Cyndane.

 

The first point also fits with Graendal's thoughts that "Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionally showed their faces there [south of the Blight]. They spent their time rallying the Darkfriends and occasionally trying to follow Moridin's orders that the two ta'veren — Perrin Aybara and Matrim Cauthon — be killed." Cyndane is probably rallying DF somewhere else, e.g. in her PoV in WH just before the Cleansing starts, maybe in the Borderlands.

 

Of course, Graendal apparently doesn't seem to believe that any of them poses as Sylvase, so Sylvase might also just be a DF e.g. under the thumb of either Moghedien or maybe Cyndane, after all.

 

That's a really interesting idea, I hadn't even considered Moghedien before.

 

I'd say that at the least, it's likely Sylvase is a DF - the fact that she's got her own torturer seems pretty suspicious to me.

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There is absolutely no way Moghedien could keep up a MoM that changed her appearance enough for Elayne to not recognize her immediately, or atleast be suspicious, for three months. Elayne knows Moghedien, her face, her height, her voice, everything...

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There is absolutely no way Moghedien could keep up a MoM that changed her appearance enough for Elayne to not recognize her immediately, or atleast be suspicious, for three months. Elayne knows Moghedien, her face, her height, her voice, everything...

 

Of course, you can completely change your appearance and voice with a MoM. Lanfear posing as Keille is a good example for this.

 

There might also be another little clue for Moghedien being Sylvase. At the Cleansing Moghedien thinks: "Retreating to the back of the hilltop, away from the shining key and the strange dome, she sat down to do what she had done so often in the past. Watch from the shadows, and survive." This fits with Sylvase's behaviour in CoT, ch.15: "Oddly, Sylvase did not look away. It was impossible to see her face in the shadows of her hood, but the opening turned to follow the slender woman."

Maybe "Sylvase" is even wearing the hood to hide bruises from the Cleansing?

 

Also plot-wise it seems interesting to put Moghedien with Elayne & Birgitte together again.

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The Sylvase is Cyndane Theory

 

The idea that Sylvase has been replaced by Cyndane began with the similarities in their descriptions. Both women are short, with silvery-blond hair and an icy demeanor. At the beginning she is described as being stupid, but notice the sequence of the descriptions of her—take note of the descriptions of her prettiness, and her stupidity.

 

 

  Why would any Chosen or pseudo-Chosen require the serves of a professional torturer, a Jaq Lounalt?

 

 

  How do you interpret this particular piece of text from 'The Gathering Storm', in conjunction with your Sylvase = Cyndane theory?

 

Source: The Gathering Storm book, Chapter Prologue "What the Storm Means" - Graendal point of view

 

 

  Moridin was gathering the Great Lord's forces for the Last Battle, and his war preparations left him very little time for the south--though his two minions, Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionally showed their faces there.  The spent their time rallying Darkfriends and occasionally trying to follow Moridin's orders that the two ta'veren--Perrin Aybara and Matrim Cauthon--be killed.

 

    Is there enough time in the day for Sylvase to be both Cyndane and be rallying Darkfriends across the south?

   

    Doubtful. Seriously a doubtful theory.

 

  Why cannot Cyndane just be simply Cyndane, Luckers in your view? And why cannot Sylvase just herself, Sylvase?

 

 

    Chosen, Black Ajah, and other channeling agents of the Shadow can kill or harm individuals at will; they do not need, desire nor require a personal torturer: Jaq Lounalt.

 

    Sylvase and Jaq Lounalt are far more likely to be tied to a future event foretold by Min:

 

Source: The Great Hunt book, Chapter 43 "A Plan" - Min Vision & Foretelling

 

"above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe." It means trouble but it seems distant, somewhere in the future.

   

   

    Elayne has not seen this particular "trouble" either, yet.  ;D

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I am really tired of this theory, because I think that Sylvase, as she is, is a fairly interesting side character.  She hid her true intelligence, admittedly not too difficult to do when her primary audience consists of people like Arymilla and Elenia who are quite ready to see everyone but themselves as fools.  She hid her resentment of her situation.  When the time came, she acted.  Quite possibly, she managed to arrange her grandfather's "seizure"; in any case, she took the opportunity to switch her support to Elayne, and attempted to arrange for her erstwhile captors to be tortured.

 

An important note here: Jaq Lounalt WAS NOT Sylvase's private torturer (or her secretary, or her anything).  He was Arymilla's, or possibly employed by someone else who was loyal to Arymilla.  He was used against Naean to make her stand for Arymilla after she was captured:

"You want to be careful what you say, or Arymilla may ask her Taraboner to play cat's cradle with you again."

[CoT Chapter 15 "Gathering Darkness," Elenia speaking to Naean]

Sylvase called him her "secretary" in the assumption that he would be willing to move into her retinue under the changed circumstances, and in hopes of having Arymilla etc. tortured by him.  If he were really in her employ previously, I think that Arymilla, Elenia, etc. would have taken more notice of her.

 

 

    Sylvase and Jaq Lounalt are far more likely to be tied to a future event foretold by Min:

 

Source: The Great Hunt book, Chapter 43 "A Plan" - Min Vision & Foretelling

 

"above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe." It means trouble but it seems distant, somewhere in the future.

   

   

    Elayne has not seen this particular "trouble" either, yet.  ;D

 

It's remotely possible, but Lounalt's preferred instruments of torture seem to be ropes, not hot iron.  In addition to the cat's cradle quote above, I seem to recall another PoV from Arymilla's camp in which someone remarks that Lounalt smiles too much for a torturer, for someone who could cause so much pain with nothing more than a bit of rope.  I understand that the North Vietnamese used ropes to torture American prisoners of war; as a Vietnam veteran, or just a history buff, RJ may have picked up the idea from there.

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If Sylvase is Cyndane, and Cyndane presumably retains her ability to track ta'veren in the pattern, and Mat's headed for Caemlyn, and she's hanging out in the palace, and Moridin has ordered him dead, and she is mindtrapped to follow his orders, and... and...

 

:o

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If Sylvase is Cyndane, and Cyndane presumably retains her ability to track ta'veren in the pattern, and Mat's headed for Caemlyn, and she's hanging out in the palace, and Moridin has ordered him dead, and she is mindtrapped to follow his orders, and... and...

 

:o

 

Let seeing Sid is proposing that Lanfear --> Cyndane --> mindtrapped by Moridin to become --> Sylvase --> who is going to attempt to kill Mat?

 

 

Let's cut this chain of assumption down a bit:  Moridin orders --> Noal to kill Mat in Caemlyn.

 

 

If Lanfear wanted or was ordered to find Mat's Dreams to kill him, she would have by now if she was re-born as Cyndane.

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while I guess I have lurked  long enough

 

        while its an interesting theory

But from the first time I read it the "Taraboner" Jaq Lounalt screamed Seanchan Seeker to me

 

who else benefits from an Andoran civil war?

 

  and it answers the question of the second map on the Deathwatch general's table its Caemyln. doesn't he hold it down with an golden lion paperweight?

RJ foreshadowing?

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