Rand's implausible misunderstanding of Min in LoC & aCoS

[dgd3]

Forgive me if this topic had been discussed before: I'm not new to WoT, but I am new to the DM forums, and searching them is currently broken.

 

Anyway...

 

I've never really bought the idea that Rand could have mistakenly believed he'd raped Min in aCoS.  I mean, compare how he acts/thinks in aCoS 33 (A Bath) vs. tFoH 31 (The Far Snows).  He's confused after both encounters, but at least with Aviendha he understands that it had been a mutual indulgence, even though her attitude had previously been combative and she herself was in denial about her feelings.

 

The idea that he could then later drastically misinterpret his encounter with his close friend Min, who had been physically and verbally expressive of her attraction to him for many weeks, is just not believable.

 

I mean, even if we could grant RJ the conceit that Rand was oblivious to Min's true feelings throughout LoC, despite her flirting and snuggling and kissing,(which strains credulity for any adult), the idea that he would misinterpret her feelings when she pulls him into bed is silly, if not downright insulting to Rand's intelligence. 

 

Wouldn't she have told him how much she loved him while they were in the act?  Wouldn't she have stayed in bed with him through the night and into the morning?  Wouldn't she have woken up with him and made it clear how happy she was with the events of the evening?

 

Again, it seems that the whole "Rand is guilty for days over thinking he raped Min." thing is just a clumsy way of adding in drama and female chauvinism to the story.  As a teenager I was naive enough to accept it, but as an adult, it's simply implausible.

 

Any thoughts about this?  Min + Rand is my favorite couple in WoT, even though it started off so foolishly.

[Samuel]

Not disagreeing with you-that passage is a bit of a stretch-but we all need to remember Rand isn't mentally stable. ACOS was directly after LOC, the box, where Rand really went crazy. He isn't as good empathizing and understanding other people and their feelings anymore. Add that to his ever growing confusion regarding females (bloated, I think, because of the increasing stress he's putting on "the list" and the fact that the people who tortured him and put him in the box were woman), and I think it's relatively believable Rand has a LOT of trouble understanding women and sorting out his feelings for them. After the sex he had with Min in ACOS, a book in which Rand's insanity really is developing, I think it's possible that he went a bit crazy regarding his feelings and started to feel really guilty.

 

What I'm saying is that Rand, by ACOS, is pretty mentally unstable and he's very confused and crazy regarding women. Sex with Min would send his insanity and brain over the edge a bit, I think.

[Luckers]

The distinction is Rand, deeply upset due to Fel's death, was quite forceful in the sex--ripping her clothes off and whatnot. Despite the Far Snows he was quite provincial and socialized with an over-perception of female fragility. Plus he genuinely did not think Min could possible like him.

 

 

[Adella]

I think another key factor here is that he was aware of his feelings for Avi at this point, and I think also Elayne, and didn't want to believe himself to be a big enough monster to have actually acted on his feelings for two women.. If I remember correctly Elayne had to pretty much seduce him too.. He is just so ignorant..

 

*laughs* So like a man to not get the OBVIOUS signals. ;)

[gotbliven]

Well obviously it was shocking to say the least, but I think it's believable because Rand is so incredibly self-destructive about everything. He is very apt to feeling guilty about every little thing (especially regarding women) and at this point in the story he's in an emotional mess, with everything he's been through, done and all the guilt he's carrying in complete chaos, as he has not yet learned to control it and become so hard and cold.

I think it's a fair example of exactly how confused, irrational and messy Rand is at this point.

[Mr Ares]

I think another key factor here is that he was aware of his feelings for Avi at this point, and I think also Elayne, and didn't want to believe himself to be a big enough monster to have actually acted on his feelings for two women.. If I remember correctly Elayne had to pretty much seduce him too.. He is just so ignorant..

 

*laughs* So like a man to not get the OBVIOUS signals. ;)

Maybe women just aren't as good at giving signals as they like to think they are?

[Adella]

I'm pretty sure seducing someone to sleep with you is a pretty obvious signal.. Although I guess I COULD be wrong.. Doubt it though..

[Mr Ares]

I'm pretty sure seducing someone to sleep with you is a pretty obvious signal..

That could mean anything.

[Adella]

I'm pretty sure seducing someone to sleep with you is a pretty obvious signal..

That could mean anything.

 

I was always under the impression that it meant you wanted to sleep with them... But you know.. ::)

[Mr Ares]

I'm pretty sure seducing someone to sleep with you is a pretty obvious signal..

That could mean anything.

I was always under the impression that it meant you wanted to sleep with them... But you know.. ::)

So young. So much to learn.

[Crael123]

I'm pretty sure seducing someone to sleep with you is a pretty obvious signal..

That could mean anything.

I was always under the impression that it meant you wanted to sleep with them... But you know.. ::)

So young. So much to learn.

 

lol

[Crael123]

Ares, I think she is trying to seduce you

[farthammer]

What I want to know is, how the hell did Rand get so sensitive about the slightest bit of harm towards women?  Growing up with Egwene and Nynaeve I'm surprised he doesn't have more problems suppressing the urge to give them five across the eyes.

[metalisticpain]

Just one of those cultural things. I mean i was taught never to hit a girl, but they obviously have it a bit more ingrained to have such an aversion to killing a girl whose trying to kill them.

[water_seeker]

I was taught to never hit girls, but that won't stop me from stopping them from hitting me...even if that means I need to hit them back... :o  So I don't see why they can't get over it.

[Balefire to da face!]

Forgive me if this topic had been discussed before: I'm not new to WoT, but I am new to the DM forums, and searching them is currently broken.

 

Anyway...

 

I've never really bought the idea that Rand could have mistakenly believed he'd raped Min in aCoS.  I mean, compare how he acts/thinks in aCoS 33 (A Bath) vs. tFoH 31 (The Far Snows).  He's confused after both encounters, but at least with Aviendha he understands that it had been a mutual indulgence, even though her attitude had previously been combative and she herself was in denial about her feelings.

 

The idea that he could then later drastically misinterpret his encounter with his close friend Min, who had been physically and verbally expressive of her attraction to him for many weeks, is just not believable.

 

As someone who has been woefully bad at the whole "signal" thing all my life, I don't find it unbelievable. Though I am sure to the many who "get it" when it comes to signals just "don't get it" when it comes to understanding how it can be so confusing ;)

 

In this case, it can be something as small as the fact that Avi initiated the first kiss, while Rand did so with Min. That could go a long way towards making Rand think he forced the issue.

 

Remember that Rand was also a right next door to a virgin with Min. He was nekked, cuddled up to Avi when they started. We don't know the details of what kind of sex it was. The whole passionate, clothes flying everywhere, spur of the moment sex he had with Min might have been a bit traumatic ;)

 

And lastly, Rand was face to face with Avi right after they had sex. There was no room for interpritation on his part. With him and Min, being in a castle and comfortable bedchamber instead of a frozen wasteland, they had the oppurtunity for one of them to slip off while the other was asleep(I don't remember which one did....). This left Rand stewing in it. I don't know how it is with other people, but when you are left to contemplate the inner workings of someone elses mind, and how they feel about you, I normally come up with the worst ideas....

 

I mean, even if we could grant RJ the conceit that Rand was oblivious to Min's true feelings throughout LoC, despite her flirting and snuggling and kissing,(which strains credulity for any adult), the idea that he would misinterpret her feelings when she pulls him into bed is silly, if not downright insulting to Rand's intelligence.

 

From the very beginning of the series, Min made Rand feel like "the joke was on him". It doesn't strain reality to think Rand thought Min was just having fun with him when she was flirting with him. He even thinks to himself that she seems to be making sport of making him feel uncomfortable and off balance. He is being literal....he really does think she's doing that.

 

Wouldn't she have told him how much she loved him while they were in the act?  Wouldn't she have stayed in bed with him through the night and into the morning?  Wouldn't she have woken up with him and made it clear how happy she was with the events of the evening?

 

Yeah, you'd think they'd do that....wouldn't ya >:(

 

Again, it seems that the whole "Rand is guilty for days over thinking he raped Min." thing is just a clumsy way of adding in drama and female chauvinism to the story.  As a teenager I was naive enough to accept it, but as an adult, it's simply implausible.

 

Rand is clueless when it comes to women thoughout most of the series. This is not just meant as comic relief. It serves as an anchor for Rand's character. A good example is one of my favorite small, touching scenes in the series. At the beginning of book 4 when Rand has killed Forsaken, accepted he is the Dragon Reborn, is making preparations to unite the Aiel around him(in short, he's becoming the most powerful leader in the world) Egwene and Elayne visit him in his apartment. And he tries to make a flower for Elayne from feathers out of pillows he's just burst with the One Power. He finds he can't channel, and so drops the feathers, but Elayne scoops them up while he tells her not to bother because someone else will clean them up.

 

Rand was betrothed to Egwene his whole life, and she passed him like a sack to Elayne. Rand was 18 or so when the series started. Chances are he knew less about girls then most of us did when we entered our friggin teens. So yeah, not only is Rand's ignorance of women(and his own feelings) well founded, it serves as an important part of the series. While Rand is becoming a hard hearted dictator, he is still almost childlike in his understanding of love and women. And this is not something that is unbeleivable. One has little to do with the other.

[perrin51]

The one thing that noone has mentioned yet, is that Min can't Channel. Think of how Rand would view someone who couldn't Channel in a physical confrontation. Not only is he considerably stronger than her physically, he can Channel. She is defenseless as a babe before his uncontolable aggression, in Rands opinion.As mentioned earlier, he is starting to lose it at this point.  He also saw her as a friend, almost like an older sister that would keep him from getting too full of himself. Even in his dreams he was ashamed of thinking of Min as he thinks of Elayne.

[Mr Ares]

Ares, I think she is trying to seduce you

I'm certain of it. After all, I am irresistable.