Cadsuane black ajah?

[Graendals favourite]

Completely agree. I'm more leaning on her being somehow free of the Oaths, not Black, though very accustomed to not lying so as not to give herself away, though that is perhaps because it would mean she was considerably older than she seems. That opens up many good theories.

[Luckers]

I love Verin, she's the most fascinating character in the series.

 

I too lean towards it not being word-games... it would be too cheap a gimic, and RJ is rarely into that sort of thing. Since Verin also has the Agelessness though, and does not seem to be Black... it does raise some questions. I like cwestervelts idea that she was duped by a fake note or something... that never occured to me.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That whole "satisfied smile" bit after she tells Ingtar that Moiraine sent her seems a bit like the cat who just found the bowl of cream. She thinks she did something clever, which unfortunately, makes either word games, or Black Ajah, more likely. Unless she was just pleased because she thought Moiraine really did send her.

 

 

This is why men go bald. All women are Aes Sedai.

[Dionysus]

If she is BA why is she trying to justify the form of compulsion she uses using word games to bypass the oaths, not discussing it with with another AS, but in a PoV, where no one but her and us knows what she is thinking.

 

Verin is good. Verin is going to help Mat. Verin good. Verin bring horn to Mat. Mat blow Horn. Horn help Rand. Rand win last battle. Verin very verin good.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Which is why, Dionysus, we've been discussing other ways that she might be free of one or two of the Oaths, without being a Darkfriend.

 

And are you basing the idea that Verin is getting the Horn on anything other than pure speculation? Its an interesting idea, not without merit, but do you have any evidence?

[Luckers]

And are you basing the idea that Verin is getting the Horn on anything other than pure speculation? Its an interesting idea, not without merit, but do you have any evidence?

 

It seems the most likely option, and the only viable action for her to take following KoD. She said in her letter that she felt she could serve Rand better elsewhere, and not 20 pages beforehand she was commenting on the closeness of Tarmon Gaidon... with reference to her having said the same thing before hand.

 

Now if you concider Verin's options from what we know of what she knows, the most likely thing she would concider to be needed in the event of the Last Battle starting, you come back to the Horn of Valere. Moreover she and Suine are the only ones who know where it is.

[RobertAlexWillis]

A likely course indeed. I wonder how she knows where Mat is? Or how she plans to find him? I always figured he'd get it himself somehow, because he's sure to end up in Tar Valon, whoever ends up fighting there, he and the Band will be in the thick of it, he's connected to everyone involved.

[Luckers]

My guess, she doesn't. She probably only intends to have it near to hand for when Mat pops back up again. It makes sense given that once Tarmon Gaidon starts, access to the vaults in Tar Valon could become fairly hard.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its funny .... I just dont see the strategic importance of Tar Valon for the Shadow.

 

If they can just isolate the Aes Sedai there, they win. They can sit it out until the DO breaks free, and he can take care of them himself. I've always imagined the Last Battle as an assault by the LIGHT on the Blight. They have to go seal the Dark One in. Just sitting around is all to the Dark's advantage now. Tar Valon can't stand against the rest of the world if it is held by the Dark One, or stand at all if he is free. The Shadow doesn't NEED Tar Valon for it's own, it just needs Tar Valon busy with its own problems to give the Shadow a free hand everywhere else until the Dark One is free.

 

Rand's blood on the slopes of Shayol Ghul is what will save mankind, not on the streets of Tar Valon.

[Luckers]

You can't isolate a travelling force. And any force with 2000 channelers and 80,000 soldiers is a force that cannot be left alone to prepare. Added to that the impregnability of Tar Valon....

 

The Shadow doesn't need Tar Valon, it needs to destroy it, and it needs to do it quickly.

 

As for the Blight, Tarmon Gaidon will not be fought in the Blight alone. I believe there will be two initial assaults out of the blight by Trolloc forces... likely three. One that Lan will encounter, one that Rhuarc will encounter, and one for Tar Valon... or possible one that wont be stopped by anything, and will attack elsewhere. My guess is that this will coincide with an assault out of the Shadows Fingers on the Seanchan in Amadacia, and possibly one or two other places via the Ways that havn't been shut yet (just to prove the importance of Rand trying to shut them, if nothing else)

 

In time the battles will move into the blight. I suspect Rand will instigate a counter--attack following the assault on Tar Valon being beaten back.

[Guest cwestervelt]

RobertAlexWillis: That whole "satisfied smile" bit after she tells Ingtar that Moiraine sent her seems a bit like the cat who just found the bowl of cream. She thinks she did something clever, which unfortunately, makes either word games, or Black Ajah, more likely. Unless she was just pleased because she thought Moiraine really did send her.

 

 

This is why men go bald. All women are Aes Sedai.

 

That is a very common interpretation. Of course, Verin's satisfied smile may have had absolutely nothing to do with her statement about Moiraine sending her. She just heard Ingtar reprimanded Mat for his bad manners by calling her "Verin" and not using the honorific "Sedai." The fact that the "Verin Sedai" was directed at Mat as a reprimand rather than Verin as a greeting isn't readily apparent. Not until you consider how Ingtar, with a Shienaran's respect for Aes Sedai, would never have addressed Verin sharply.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Again, that's entirely possible. This is why men go bald. All women are Aes Sedai.

[Gentled Ben]

Okay, two quick things. First, what if Verin used her modified Compulsion weave on Moiraine? "Moiraine sent me, Lord Ingtar (because I made her)" None of the AS she used the weave on seem to remember their session with her-why would Moiraine? Neither of them would be lying or playing convoluted word games, then.

 

Second, I don't think Elaida would let Verin waltz into the tower and heist the horn, do you? Remember, the room that the horn is in is warded and monitored; that's how Alviarin caught Fain stealing the dagger. Elaida put Siuan to the question, remember? Surely, Siuan, or Leane, or both would have let slip during the interrogation that Verin knew, from the time of Fal Dara on, that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. Would that not constitute the same treason for which the arrest warrant was issued in Moiraine's name? Why would Verin want a piece of that? Remember, she decided against continuing to Tar Valon with the novices from the Two Rivers upon learning that Elaida had staged a coup and stilled Siuan and Leane. Granted, running into Rand may have had some influence on her decision, as well.

 

It would seem to me that Verin has gone to gather the huge army of borderlanders into Rand's fold, as they were talking about the borderlanders and Rand's answer from the Finns during the same conversation in which Verin decides that she's done all she can from where she's at.

[Luckers]

Okay, two quick things. First, what if Verin used her modified Compulsion weave on Moiraine? "Moiraine sent me, Lord Ingtar (because I made her)" None of the AS she used the weave on seem to remember their session with her-why would Moiraine? Neither of them would be lying or playing convoluted word games, then.

 

The ones Verin used it on were all unstable, exhuasted and weak. Moiraine was none of those things, and moreover i dont see her letting Verin channel at her...

 

Second, I don't think Elaida would let Verin waltz into the tower and heist the horn, do you? Remember, the room that the horn is in is warded and monitored; that's how Alviarin caught Fain stealing the dagger.

 

Fain could not channel. Fain did not know the nature of the defences set on that place. I'm not saying its going to be easy, but remember Verin knows all the new weaves... disguise, inversion, travelling. And she also has no known alliegences... she very likely could waltz back into the Tower... i dont think she will, i suspect she will remove it by stelth, or try to, but she could if she chose.

 

I suspect she may be caught up in the Seanchan assault too.

 

Elaida put Siuan to the question, remember? Surely, Siuan, or Leane, or both would have let slip during the interrogation that Verin knew, from the time of Fal Dara on, that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. Would that not constitute the same treason for which the arrest warrant was issued in Moiraine's name? Why would Verin want a piece of that?

 

Not nessasarily. We know Suine kept things back in those interrogations. We have no specific reason to suspect Elaida knew Verin was involved. Indeed she was never at Fal Dara, and Verin never returned to the Tower. Verin and Elaida have likely not seen each other in years... decades... i doubt she would have any reason to think on it. And even if she did, Verin has spent the better part of her life making people underestimate her. Remember Moiraines thoughts about her being lost... and Cads comments about her being a woman of many masks. I don't think Elaida suspects.

 

Remember too that Verin has displayed a willingness to break any number of Aes Sedai laws... she doesn't seem to really identify with the Aes Sedai, doing what needs to be done. Nor has she been a coward. I see her going into the tower, and taking a piece of that.

 

Remember, she decided against continuing to Tar Valon with the novices from the Two Rivers upon learning that Elaida had staged a coup and stilled Siuan and Leane. Granted, running into Rand may have had some influence on her decision, as well.

 

Verin's alliegences seem to not be to the Tower in any case. Her choice not to return to Elaida (or for that matter the Rebels--that connection merely came out of chance) seems more likely to do with her wanting to do her own thing. That being said i rather doubt she has a high opinion of Elaida. I don't see the connection between this and her choosing to get the Horn.

[Rumor]

To add to Luckers' comments on Verin, Moiraine, and compulsion, I find it unlikely Verin used compulsion on Moiraine based on Verin's attitude towards the modified compulsion weave she did use on the "weaker" subjects (who also had committed pretty grevious wrongs)...she has to convince herself to do so; I don't think she could have done so with Moiraine as the subject. I also agree that Elaida's not likely to know much about Verin or suspect her of much...Verin flies under the radar a LOT of the time, so she would be completely unimportant to Elaida.

 

On another note, the possibility Verin has gone to the borderlander army is definitely viable - I suspect she's either gone to do that or to get the Horn, but for all we know, she could have gone to the Stump to help Loial talk the Ogier into helping instead of leaving (after all, I expect a few big "tricks" up her sleeve).

[Guest Majsju]

It's quite possible that Verin is heading directly to Mat, or at least his general direction, hoping to find him somehow.

 

She spent a lot of time with Perrin, then a lot of time of Rand, but she hasn't seen Mat in a long time, and never really had the chance to be around him alone. And we know she's shown quite an interest in the ta'veren lads, and seems to know more than most people about their part in TG, her comment to Perrin about when he's going to throw away the axe for example.

[Luckers]

How would she find him?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You took the words out of my mouth, Luckers.

[Guest Majsju]

That's the challenge.

[moroten]

Tomas got to be somewhere. She always sends him away on important missions.

 

What about Tomas being in the red hand? Then she can locate it. Tomas would be bright enough to make sure he went with group trying to find Mat.

 

Just speculation.

[schneb]

The "Moiraine sent me" comment can be easily explained. Verin never said where Moiraine sent her. Moiraine could have simply said something like "get out" that is sending her "out".

 

Also, the second part of the statement "she thought you might need me." The great thing about pronouns is that "she" could refer to any female, even Verin herself. It is generally assumed that using a pronoun after using a person's name would be refering back to that person, but it doesn't have to be so.

 

The satisfied smile part is uncharactistic of an AS spinning the truth like a top, they are notorious for having great poker faces. I'd believe that her satisfied smile was more for having caught up to them or something mundane like that.

[Luckers]

The satisfied smile has more to do with Ingtar putting Mat down for being rude to an Aes Sedai I suspect.

 

As for the rest, it seems too loose. If Aes Sedai could distort the truth that much, then they can lie.

 

Tomas is with Verin in KoD. Remember? "I've taken Tomas and gone to be about it."

 

Or did you mean in the Great Hunt? She left Tomas with the other Aes Sedai.

[Gentled Ben]

The ones Verin used it on were all unstable, exhuasted and weak. Moiraine was none of those things, and moreover i dont see her letting Verin channel at her...

 

Yeah, I think I was just grasping at straws there, and it might have been better had I simply thought about it for a moment longer before posting it. My problem with my own idea though, rather than wondering if perhaps Moiraine was too strong in the power to be a viable candidate for the weave, is the simpler question of why? Why would Verin go to such trouble, when she could have just gone on her own initiative and said so. Which begs the question, why did she say what she did, rather than just saying, "Hi. I thought you might need some help." I guess the whole discrepancy between what she and Moiraine each said disturbs me more than it should.

Not nessasarily. We know Suine kept things back in those interrogations. We have no specific reason to suspect Elaida knew Verin was involved.

I'm going to have to disagree, although it's probably not a point worth arguing. It would just seem to me that "Who else knew of this? Who else was involved?" are questions that would have been asked until they were answered to Elaida's satisfaction. I got the impression while reading it that what Siuan held back was a collection of trifling facts- small moral victories, and no more. Keeping Verin's knowledge out of it would probably be considered a little bigger of a fish, as far as witheld info goes, but perhaps you're right.

 

She's known for some time now that Tarmon Gaidon was coming soon, and that the horn was in the tower. She's had ample opportunity to go fetch it, but stayed put until the question Rand assked of the Finns was brought up, and the borderlanders were mentioned. I don't, however, think it's unreasonable that she's gone for the horn. SOMEONE has to, and bearing in mind the new weaves that she knows (Travel, et al), she's as likely a candidate for the mission as anyone else.

I don't see the connection between this and her choosing to get the Horn.

 

Being convinced that Elaida likely knows of Verin's invovement, I have always assumed that Verin would be conmvinced of it too. Who wants to be birched, stilled, and beheaded? Probably not Verin.

 

Of course, I clearly have difficulty puzzling out the proper use of quotations and fonts, so I may be in WAY over my head! :oops:

[Luckers]

It depends on how much Elaida pressed the question. If she asked and Suine was reluctant in revealing Moiraine, i don't see her being pressed further on that matter. And moreover i can see Elaida already being convinced she knows whats going on with that particular aspect of the Suine's plans. What she would have been after is specifics... where is Moiraine, where is Rand, what are her plans... blah blah blah.

 

Keep in mind too that the horn is mentioned all of a sudden all over the place around Verin's choice... after it having not been thought on without a specific reason in many books. Strikes me as foreshadow.

[Gentled Ben]

Those are good points; I'll concede the questioning, as I hadn't thought about how hard Elaida would've had to work to get the info about Moiraine (Siuan caring for her so, and all), and once she's arrived at that point, I see the rest of it likely unfolding as you say, as well.

I'm among those who fear that the Aes Sedai travelling with the borderlanders are black, and I tend to believe that Demandred is with them, too (good a place as any for him, I say), and I like Verin, so I hope I'm wrong; I hope she DID go to the tower for the horn.