Cadsuane black ajah?

[moroten]

I have this thought that keep coming back that cadsuane may be black ajah! My evidence for this theory is:

New spring - Moir. hers a statement from cadsuane that she knows is a lie

 

Cadsuane has sought up all the false dragons and let them roam free("let the lord of chaos rule")

 

She still lives. If she would be bonded by the 3 oaths she would be dead long ago.

 

But then I just cant figure out what her purpose with Rand is, somehow it doesnt fit.

 

Any thoughts?

[Angyl]

I had the same thought when I first read the series. She just seemed really shifty to me for some reason.

[Cybertrolloc]

moroten, read the whole series yet?

 

New Spring: what's the lie?

 

False Dragons: she was part of the groups that captured Logain and Taim, remember. There's not a compelling reason to believe that she did anything different with Taim than Logain (though it would be interesting if she'd met Taim recently).

 

Her purpose is similar to Verin's: make sure Rand does what Cads believes he must do. We've had her point of view at least twice now, she's ruthless and a few other things, but not Dark.

[rochaid]

yes and in one of those PoV's she mentions (ruefully) how one of her only failures was trying to route the black ajah out of the tower

[Guest Majsju]

New spring - Moir. hers a statement from cadsuane that she knows is a lie

 

Cadsuane doesn't say a single word that can be considered a lie.

 

Cadsuane has sought up all the false dragons and let them roam free("let the lord of chaos rule")

 

Cadsuane has alone captured more false dragons than the entire White Tower combined during her lifetime.

 

She still lives. If she would be bonded by the 3 oaths she would be dead long ago.

 

We have a POV where she thinks that she doesn't have much time left to live. She's around 300 years old, if she hadn't been bound by the Oath Rod she could very well have over 200 years left to live.

[Luckers]

Additionally she has the Ageless look of the Oath Rod, and in any case the Black sisters are also bound to the oath.

 

We have POV's of hers that disprove her being black.

[moroten]

Ok. Yes I have read the whole series but it was a long time ago since I read new spring.

 

Anyway thanks for the replies.

[seoman]

I also had thought that cadsuane is a black sister but somehow i can not believe it, but the same for verin and i think she is a black ajah member... why? i don´t know(i know is a vague answer but she reminds me the one who wants rand alive to face the great lord)

[Trib4l]

My only twitch in the Verin theory has always been in her first person thoughts. She never refers to the DO as the Great Lord.

[gak]

you know... i dont think either verin or cadsuane are black ajah.... i simply think they are two old sisters who have two differant views on how to achieve a goal... and really the 3 oaths have some big loop wholes in them.... i mean if star wars have taught us nothing is that truth is in the tellers point of view...

[rochaid]

plus in her choedan kal PoV she sees a forsaken (graendal) tries to capture her after thinking how useful a captive forsaken would be,then she is shocked to realise she is already holding the power...this to me indicates (quite cleary) that she is not black ajah

[Rational_Solutions]

plus in her choedan kal PoV she sees a forsaken (graendal) tries to capture her after thinking how useful a captive forsaken would be' date='then she is shocked to realise she is already holding the power...this to me indicates (quite cleary) that she is not black ajah[/quote']

 

Yeah but Alviarin has often thought about ussing Messana (?) and the knowlegde that she posesses and we know she is BA

[Guest cwestervelt]

The Black Ajah are not constrained from using the Power as a weapon. Verin is. That is why she plays the mental justification game when she was implanting suggestions in the other Aes Sedai. That is why she was so particular about any harm being a result of the targets potential future actions, not the weave itself.

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

My only twitch in the Verin theory has always been in her first person thoughts. She never refers to the DO as the Great Lord.

 

POV's where people refer to the DO as something other than Great Lord of the Dark aren't rock solid evidence against them being a darkfriend. Some DFs call the Chosen Forsaken in their thoughts, some with other DFs when a Chosen is not present, and some call them Chosen in their thoughts as well. It's quite possible we've had DFs thinking in their minds of the DO as the DO (or any other assorted names).

 

It's also possible that people will become DFs. It happened before the War of Power. And some of the channelers will be turned against their will.

[rochaid]

quote;Rational_Solutions

 

Yeah but Alviarin has often thought about ussing Messana (?) and the knowlegde that she posesses and we know she is BA

 

yes but has she ever gone as far as to try and capture the forsaken?no,and considering she is the perhaps the most important of the BA (the mark SH gave her) i doubt someone not so influential would try it.(like verin)

and i find it hard to believe that informed BA members (which verin would be IF she was BA) would not know that weaves to hide the one power existed.

 

and then there is what cwestervelt said

[prophetman]

It is unlikely that either Cadsuane or Verin are Black Ajah. I think they are just both very mysterious and determined Aes Sedai.

 

And while I agree with most of what rochaid says, a BA member would definetly not know about any weaves to hide the power. The Forsaken guard their knowledge closely, and they have no motivation to teach their underlings their secrets.

[Guest cwestervelt]

rochaid: and i find it hard to believe that informed BA members (which verin would be IF she was BA) would not know that weaves to hide the one power existed.

 

First, the Foresaken have shown a willingness to teach if they see benefit from it. Second, rochaid didn't say they would teach how to hide the ability. He only said a well informed BA would know they could. We have plenty of evidence for this as many dealings between Foresaken and the BA are done without the Aes Sedai sincing any abiltiy. Mesaana hides her ability visiting Alviarin. Moghedien hid her ability when she was posing as a servant. When she revealed her true identity, that Liandrin and co. still knew who she had posed as, therefore they knew the ability could be hid.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Regarding Verin ... if she's not a Darkfriend, then she's somehow not bound by all the Oaths ....

 

The Great Hunt, p.204 (Wolfbrother) "'Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar,' Verin announced with a satisfied smile."

 

The Great Hunt, p. 594 (What Was Meant To Be) "[Rand al'Thor speaking]'You sent Verin to shepherd me, but I'm no sheep Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not.' [Moiraine replies] 'I did not send Verin.' Moiraine frowned. 'She did that on her own.'"

 

Unless Verin somehow tricked herself into believing that Moiraine sent her when Moiraine did not, that constitutes an out and out lie.

[Seldy]

Dictionary.com first definition of sent is:

 

1.to cause, permit, or enable to go: to send a messenger; They sent their son to college.

 

From that definition, it's not hard to envision in which Verin said something like, "If it's alright with you Moiraine, I will leave you."

 

Or maybe she could have pulled a trick Elaida did in EotW and said something below her breath. While this might sound far-fetched, Ingtar knows that Aes Sedai don't lie, and how often do Aes Sedai manipulate the Oaths for their own benefit.

 

Think, that if she were to speak a lie, as Black Ajah, she would be absolutely certain that it could not be traced. Speaking the lie would ought to have to be on a matter of some importance. If she was Black Ajah, she has very little to gain from lying and a hell of a lot to lose.

 

That compiled with the mental justifications she makes when using compulsion, it seems very likely she's bound by the 1st and 3rd oaths at least.[/i]

[RobertAlexWillis]

That would be impressive "meaning-wrangling" on her part, but, as I said, she may have convinced herself of it. I'm not sure how the use of compulsion would violate the first or third Oaths though ... it violates Tower Law, but there's nothing about obeying the Law in the Oaths, unless she susequently swore to do so. And if Compulsion were a weapon, it would not need to prohibited by Law, since the Oath would prohibit it.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Compulsion, in and of itself, doesn't know violate the Oaths. Where it would violate the Oath is if you were trying to Compel a person to commit suicide or cut someones throat. As far as the Oaths are concerned, an attempt to use Compulsion to commit bodily harm would make it a weapon. That is why, when Verin is using her modified compulsion weave, she is very careful to qualify how any harm that comes to the subject would be from side effects, not direct effects of the subject's possible future actions. It may be slim justification, but as long as Verin accepts it, it is enough to allow her to slip through. The Oaths don't care if no one else agrees.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Assuming that she is bound by at least some of the Oaths (and Jordan did confirm that she has "held the Oath rod", which could mean almost anything if you think about it) she obviously has little problem convincing herself that almost anything she wants to do can slips through the spaces in the Oaths. She says straight out that Moiraine SENT her. Even using Seldy's convenient broad definition (which includes simply permitting) she had to convince herself that there was some level of intent on Moiraine's part, which there was clearly not. It makes me wonder if she had not perhaps removed one or more of the Oaths, not necessarily as a Darkfriend, but as a matter of what she believed necessary. Pevara and company didn't have much trouble getting their hands on the Oath Rod. I'm sure with all the time Verin has had, she could have done it. And she has demonstrated a willingness to flout both tradition and law to accomplish what she thought necessary

[Guest cwestervelt]

"That's one of the Aes Sedai," Mat said disappointedly. "I recognize her. Verin."

 

"Verin Sedai," Ingtar said sharply, then bowed to her from his saddle.

 

"Moiraine Sedai sent me, Lord Ingtar," Verin announced with a satisfied smile. "She thought you might need me."

The Great Hunt Chapter 14: "Wolfbrother"

 

That quote has likely been the source of almost as much discussion as "who killed Asmodean." The statement is vague, and allows a multitude of interpretations. Take Verin's "satisfied smile". Was she smiling because she had just given Ingtar a reason that would prevent him from asking many questions, or because he just came down on Mat for being rude to an Aes Sedai? Then there are her statements themselves.

 

"Moiraine sent me ... She thought you might need me."

The problem always comes back to Moiraine later saying that Verin did that on her own.

 

"What you could. You sent Verin to shephard me, but I'm no sheep, Moiraine. You said I could go where I wanted, and I mean to go where you are not."

 

"I did not send Verin." Moiraine frowned. "She did that on her own. You are of a interest to a great many people, Rand."

The Great Hunt Chapter 49: "What Was Meant To Be"

 

Moiraine's frown makes it appear that she had nothing to do with Verin following. That still leaves a lot of room without either Verin or Moiraine lying.

 

First, Verin could have overheard a comment from Moiraine to Siuan that went along the lines of "I really wish there was someone who could keep an eye on them." That would be all Verin needed because obviously, Moiraine would send her if she thought of it. After all, it is the thought that counts.

 

Second, someone else could have passed on a "message" from Moiraine to Verin. Someone who knew they had been closeted together at Fal Dara and wanted to seperate them, or drive a wedge between Rand and Moiraine by making it appear that Moiraine didn't trust Rand. All that was necessary for Verin to say "Moiraine sent me" was for Verin to believe that Moiraine did. Liandrin was part of the Amyrlin's party at Fal Dara, and she was quite capable of lying. It wasn't until later in the book that she was revealed as a Black Ajah, so if she had gone to Verin and said "Before she left, Moiraine asked me to deliver a message to you. She thought it might be a good idea if there was an Aes Sedai with Ingtar's party" Verin would believe it to be true. Believing something is true is all that matters to the Oath. Since Moiraine was the first of the three to leave, it was impossible to verify.

[Graendals favourite]

Isn't it also possible for Verin to have thought, hmm.., Moiraine gave me more pieces to the puzzle, so next I need to go catch Ingtar's party to find more, or perhaps now I know it should be someone should be guiding events in Ingtar's party. Ha, I can even tell them Moiraine sends me there. After all, it was because of her that I go there.

 

The existence of Moiraine sent her there, that is.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yes it is possible. I'm not saying she wasn't playing word games, I was just trying to show how the situation in the Amyrlin's party could allow both Verin and Moiraine to make their statements without any prevarication by either of them.