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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

What Sort of Ending Do You Want for the Series?


Which of the following would make the most satisfying ending to you (not necessarily what you think the ending *will* be, but what would satisfy you the most)?  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the following would make the most satisfying ending to you (not necessarily what you think the ending *will* be, but what would satisfy you the most)?

    • The bore is healed and the DO shut out of the Pattern, only to return in some future Age through a newly drilled Bore
      28
    • The DO is shut out and somehow rendered impotent from returning (Fain?), time continues to be cyclical, with Ages repeating as the Wheel originally intended, without the influence/interference of the DO
      9
    • The DO is killed, time continues cyclically
      4
    • The DO is killed, and time becomes linear
      12
    • The DO is killed, and someone replaces him (Fain?)
      8
    • The DO wins, kick over the table and run for the windows
      8
    • Other (please explain)
      2


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Yes, "side-stepped" is the past participle form of "side-step." The past-participle is not by itself the verb, however.

"Side-stepped" is the relevant verb. It should be called "past participle", but that's very, very "not interesting at all". The relevant thing is that it happened in the past. A step that happened in the past, to be exact. So it is a completed step.

 

That someone took the step of becoming fused with Mordeth does not mean that there has to be other steps. It just mean that a step has been completed. That's all.

 

 

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That someone took the step of becoming fused with Mordeth does not mean that there has to be other steps. It just mean that a step has been completed. That's all.

 

"side-stepped" = past action, no present/future ramifications

"has side-stepped" = past action, with present/future ramifications

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Is that what you believe, Masjsu, or just what you see as possibilities?

 

 

 

I see both as quite credible possibilities. Theoretical possibilities, as I do not believe Rand can kill the DO.

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"side-stepped" = past action, no present/future ramifications

"has side-stepped" = past action, with present/future ramifications

No, it means the exact same thing. A step has been completed in both cases. Any possible ramifications would be there in both cases.

 

Mordeth is still merged with Fain. The merging was the step that was completed in the past. It doesn't mean that there has to be any other steps.

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I don't want Rand to die. And I want him to at least be somewhat happy at the end of this. As long as that happens, I will at lest be semi-satisfied with the end.

 

I agree!  I would love there to be a happy ending to the whole story but the way the books present the prophecies and Mins' viewings doesn't leave much room for debate.  The three women standing over his funeral pyre and the whole "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" thing. 

 

Then again, good ole' RJ is known for his insane and amazing plot twisting skillz (thats right, spelled with a 'z'!).

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Fain is going to be used to seal off the dark one. Isn't that what the whole two wounds thing is all about. And I don't want it to end as the ending will never be as good as we ourselves have imagined. Saying that There's a good chance i will read the next two books. If the chances of me reading the books were to be interpreted by a pie chart it would be a rhubarb tart.

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"side-stepped" = past action, no present/future ramifications

"has side-stepped" = past action, with present/future ramifications

No, it means the exact same thing. A step has been completed in both cases. Any possible ramifications would be there in both cases.

 

I stated simple points of grammar, as they apply to the verb "step." They aren't a position I am taking, they are the framework within which any position would have to fit.

 

Arguing against those points means either:

1) You don't understand grammar, OR

2) Robert Jordan didn't understand grammar

 

My money is on Jordan understanding grammar.

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"I have stepped over that puddle."

"I stepped over that puddle."

 

Both mean that I did it in the past, and that it is a completed step.

 

This is from wiktionary:

Noun present perfect

 

1.(grammar) A tense that expresses action completed at the present time; in English it is formed by using the present tense of have with a past participle

Example: I have finished this definition.

 

Wiktionary about "stepped":

Verb stepped

 

1.Simple past tense and past participle of step.

 

Class dismissed.

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Why, when you say, "class dismissed," do I hear Bobby Boucher talking to his professor?

 

"My Mama says that alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush."

 

Look, I don't dispute that the event that caused Fain to side-step the pattern happened in the past. The question is whether that state continues? You say no, I say, based on the tense RJ used, it's not only possible, it's likely. We'll find out when we find out.

 

That said, you are terribly misunderstanding verb tenses. Embarrassingly so. There is a great deal of difference between the simple past and the present perfect. And the past tense of a verb is not the same thing as the past participle of that verb, no matter that they might be spelled the same (you make that mistake when you quote re: "Verb stepped").

 

Tell me this... suppose, for a moment, that Fain not only side-stepped the Pattern, he is still to the side of the Pattern. Using the sentence below (only changing the conjugation of the verb), how would you relate this piece of information?

 

Fain (side-step) the Pattern.

 

(and, "It can't be done" isn't an option, because it can)

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The question is whether that state continues? You say no, I say, based on the tense RJ used, it's not only possible, it's likely. We'll find out when we find out.

He was merged with Mordeth. That's the step. He is still merged with Mordeth. That won't change anytime soon. He is still part of the Pattern. He still has threads in the Pattern. The Wheel still weaves his threads. That he merged with Mordeth does not mean that there has to be other steps. That's what you've been arguing for - more steps than the one he took. Past, present and future steps.

 

That said, you are terribly misunderstanding verb tenses. Embarrassingly so. There is a great deal of difference between the simple past and the present perfect. And the past tense of a verb is not the same thing as the past participle of that verb, no matter that they might be spelled the same (you make that mistake when you quote re: "Verb stepped").

The relevant verb is "side-stepped", and the verb form is past participle. The compound is present perfect. Who cares about the terminology?

 

"I have stepped over that puddle."

"I stepped over that puddle."

 

Both mean that I did it in the past, and that it is a completed step.

 

Tell me this... suppose, for a moment, that Fain not only side-stepped the Pattern, he is still to the side of the Pattern. Using the sentence below (only changing the conjugation of the verb), how would you relate this piece of information?

Fain (side-step) the Pattern.

 

(and, "It can't be done" isn't an option, because it can)

He side-stepped the Pattern when he merged with Mordeth. He is still merged with Mordeth. He is not outside the Pattern. He won't kill the Dark One. He won't make the Dark One "impotent". He won't change the Destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

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Tell me this... suppose, for a moment, that Fain not only side-stepped the Pattern, he is still to the side of the Pattern. Using the sentence below (only changing the conjugation of the verb), how would you relate this piece of information?

Fain (side-step) the Pattern.

 

(and, "It can't be done" isn't an option, because it can)

He side-stepped the Pattern when he merged with Mordeth. He is still merged with Mordeth. He is not outside the Pattern. He won't kill the Dark One. He won't make the Dark One "impotent". He won't change the Destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

Not an answer to the question. Care to try again?

 

Let's call that #1.

 

Here's #2...

Noting that there is the RJ stated prohibition against anyone within the Pattern altering the destiny of the Pattern...

and supposing that the Pattern's destiny did not originally include interference from the DO...

Would the DO gaining access to the Pattern constitute a violation of that prohibition?

 

Here's #3

Suppose, as in #2, that the Pattern's destiny did not originally include interference from the DO. If anyone within the Pattern managed to kill the DO (or render him impotent from returning to the Pattern), how would that constitute a violation of the mentioned prohibition?

 

Three simple questions, all based on 'if's, so don't get hung up on 'things aren't really that way.' Just answer them.

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I just want the kind of ending where I can laugh maniacally in the face of all who disagree with my theories.
You mean you don't do that anyway? I'd say that shows a lack of confidence in the validity of your own theories.
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I just want the kind of ending where I can laugh maniacally in the face of all who disagree with my theories.

 

I laughed maniacally when I proved something from TGS. I love those moments.

 

He side-stepped the Pattern when he merged with Mordeth. He is still merged with Mordeth. He is not outside the Pattern. He won't kill the Dark One. He won't make the Dark One "impotent". He won't change the Destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

The whole point of this I think, is that Fain wasnt supposed to sidestep the Pattern, regardless of how that came about. The fact that Fain sidestepped the Pattern is what makes reasoning out what is possible with regard to the Pattern might no longer apply to him. If you sidestep a car, it wont hit you. If you sidestep the Patten, I reckon it no longer controls you.

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The whole point of this I think, is that Fain wasnt supposed to sidestep the Pattern, regardless of how that came about. The fact that Fain sidestepped the Pattern is what makes reasoning out what is possible with regard to the Pattern might no longer apply to him. If you sidestep a car, it wont hit you. If you sidestep the Patten, I reckon it no longer controls you.

He merged with Mordeth, but he is still a part of the Pattern.

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

Mordeth & Fain merged (before) TGH. The year TGH was published was 1990. Shaidar Haran was known to us since 1994. Shadar Logoth was also very much a known factor. All things were known before 2001.

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Dude you keep posting these quotes and ignoring the fact that your interpretations clash with other stuff RJ said. RJ says this Age is no different, yes. But he also said Fain is a very unique person and that he has side stepped the Pattern.

 

Technically both facts cannot be true if we use your rigid, black-and-white-only interpretation. The fact that RJ said this Age isnt different AND that Fain sidestepped the Pattern makes the possibility of shades of grey about as clear as a truck hitting you in the face.

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Dude you keep posting these quotes and ignoring the fact that your interpretations clash with other stuff RJ said. RJ says this Age is no different, yes. But he also said Fain is a very unique person and that he has side stepped the Pattern.

People side-step the Pattern every turning. Unique things occur regularly. Crazier Fain is unique. That doesn't make him a god. Shadar Logoth evil has probably existed before. If Shadar Logoth had been a threat to the Dark One, through Shaidar Haran (a theory not worth the name), then the DO wouldn't have made Shaidar Haran in the first place.

 

Technically both facts cannot be true if we use your rigid, black-and-white-only interpretation. The fact that RJ said this Age isnt different AND that Fain sidestepped the Pattern makes the possibility of shades of grey about as clear as a truck hitting you in the face.

Both facts can be true, since new things happen every turning. So both quotes are 100 percent correct.

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I see it's time to repost my list:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

=> Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

 

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I see its time to post the fact that your interpretations (or mine for that matter, dont get me wrong) are not the only possibilities. If you keep posting the same thing it doesnt make it right.

 

RJs comment on the Pattern being side-stepped means there is the possiblity that every other rule can be ignored for Fain. If he side stepped the Pattern, it might mean he is no longer of the Pattern. If you put the two together, you MIGHT come up with the possibility that a new Dark One comes about each turning. Fain certainly has something that can expand. For example, look at Rands wounds, warring with each other. Also look at the fact that the Taint "cancelled out" the Shadar Logoth evil. Now look at Fain, who has both evils in him, and imagine what allows both forces to survive without destroying each other. The fact that they joined makes him unique; for all we know, your repeated point of this Age being the same could mean there was some other unique chap involved last time that we didnt hear about. There can be many ways of being unique.

 

EDIT:

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

 

So by saying "if" you are saying you disagree with the fact that RJ said this Age is not different, despite using that fact to bludgeon people with the same drivel over, and over, and over.

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I see its time to post the fact that your interpretations (or mine for that matter, dont get me wrong) are not the only possibilities. If you keep posting the same thing it doesnt make it right.

Technically both facts cannot be true if we use your rigid, black-and-white-only interpretation. The fact that RJ said this Age isnt different AND that Fain sidestepped the Pattern makes the possibility of shades of grey about as clear as a truck hitting you in the face.

Trying to change what RJ said in order to fit it neatly into your own theories?

 

 

RJs comment on the Pattern being side-stepped means there is the possiblity that every other rule can be ignored for Fain.

No, you've made that up completely. Facts are apparantly not fitting your wishes. Making up new ones won't help you much, unless you're planning to write your own ending.

 

If he side stepped the Pattern, it might mean he is no longer of the Pattern.

My advice to you is that you should write your own ending.

 

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1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

=> Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

Mordeth & Fain merged (before) TGH. The year TGH was published was 1990. Shaidar Haran was known to us since 1994. Shadar Logoth was also very much a known factor. All things were known before 2001.

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Trying to change what RJ said in order to fit it neatly into your own theories?

 

No, Im just not letting one comment from him cloud my judgement over his other comments.

 

My advice to you is that you should write your own ending

 

I wonder how many people agree with you. As for the rest, well you just kep posting the same stuff. Im not going to do the same.

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If he side stepped the Pattern, it might mean he is no longer of the Pattern.

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

RJ: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

 

 

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