What Sort of Ending Do You Want for the Series?

[Nightstrike]

RJ:

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Nightstrike:

"You might say that I have stepped over a puddle."

Same principle. Stepped=past event. He might merge with someone else, but that's unlikely. He's crazy enough as it is.

 

So either he is still side-stepping (not likely), or he is in a case where he is still under the implications of what it means to have side-stepped (more likely).

He isn't still side-stepping the Pattern. He did, in the past. Of course, the consequences of that event are still a part of the Pattern. Merging with someone (or side-stepping something in any other way) is something that happens once every time it happens, but "has lived" is a continuous course that "happens" during a period of time.

 

 

In the case of your example, context would have to tell us what the implications were to you having jumped over the puddle yesterday.

What do you mean? What implications? It's something I did. Past tense. Not present participle.

 

In the case of Fain, the context of RJ's quote is to explain how Fain is unique. But from the tense, Fain is still under the implications of having side-stepped the Pattern.

Yeah, he did. But it's a part of the Pattern now.

 

Now, about that list... reposting it is like repeatedly describing someone to me as, 'different.' That person is just... different. If you don't ever explain with a word other than 'different,' I'm going to have no idea what you mean. So, without resorting to just posting your list, how does anything I wrote up as a possible way for Fain to be involved (and the DO to be 'killed'--even though I don't think that is likely) violate your list?

I've given the quotes. How is it supposed to be described "differently"? It's the facts we've been given. Why would I describe them differently? I don't get what you're after.

 

If you read what I wrote, there were plenty of caveats about how the DO limits himself and takes on a physical form in the Pattern, a physical form that Fain can interact with.

Why would that limit the Dark One?

 

I, for one, don't go for the general idea that Rand will kill the DO, since the DO is essentially a god, but Shaidar Haran makes things interesting. Certainly Rand, mortal and bound in the Pattern, couldn't kill the DO, but if the DO elected to limit his own powers... by, say, too strongly inhabiting his avatar of Shaidar Haran... then I could see a situation where Rand could kill the DO. If the DO saw an opportunity to finally realize his plan, but he had to risk limited power, mortality, and final death by inhabiting Shaidar Haran to do it... that could be a way to kill the DO.

 

Kill Shaidar Haran, kill the DO.

 

Or it could give Fain something physical to tackle through the Bore, out into the void... or into a vacuole... meaning that the DO would be forever bound to the Shaidar Haran construct, until he could get that construct back into the Pattern somehow (which, of course, he could not do, limited in his power as he would be, in the Shaidar Haran avatar). It is a tidy way of getting around most of the larger arguments against this sort of "final" ending for the constant returning of the DO.

 

Several scenarios there for the heroes to end the cycle of the DO's influence.

Shaidar Haran isn't exactly an Avatar, according to RJ. Killing Shaidar Haran isn't much of an achievement, compared to killing the DO.

 

 

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not arguing *for* this to be the case, only that this possibility does not violate what we know of the universe. If it does so violate what we know, please be kind enough to point it out to me, using a word other than 'different.' ;)

Why would I use the word "different" (have I used that word before?)? It does violate the facts that we've been given. The ones I put into the list.

 

 

[Blackfish]

Nightstrike, you HAS stepped over the puddel! :P Kidding. Rubber is right, it's presten perfect. The word HAS makes it so, your exampel of I HAVE stepped over the puddel is not the same.

 

Anyways it has got to end this time, not time, but the struggel between good and bad or il die.  :-[ :P

[MikeRiley]

That struggle will never end. That much we do know. The Dark One was not the cause of it, he merely magnified what was already in man's heart.

[rubbernilly]

RJ:

He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

Nightstrike:

"You might say that I have stepped over a puddle."

Same principle. Stepped=past event. He might merge with someone else, but that's unlikely. He's crazy enough as it is.

 

No, he doesn't have to merge with someone else, or be merging with someone else... that doesn't have anything to do with RJ's quote being in the present perfect tense, nor with what I am saying.

 

If Fain's merging is the event that caused him to side-step the Pattern, then RJ's use of the present perfect tense means that that one event somehow continues into the present.

 

Consider the difference between:

Fain side-stepped the pattern.

...and...

Fain has side-stepped the pattern.

 

The first is the one-and-done case that you are touting. The second is a case where an event in the past carries forward somehow into the present.

 

So either he is still side-stepping (not likely), or he is in a case where he is still under the implications of what it means to have side-stepped (more likely).

He isn't still side-stepping the Pattern. He did, in the past. Of course, the consequences of that event are still a part of the Pattern. Merging with someone (or side-stepping something in any other way) is something that happens once every time it happens, but "has lived" is a continuous course that "happens" during a period of time.

 

Recall the quote from wikipedia. Present Perfect can relate to the present in a number of ways:

 

This may be a focus on present result: He has written a very fine book (and look, here it is, we have it now). Alternatively, it may indicate a period which includes the present. I have lived here since my youth (and I still do).

 

You are using an example where the second case applies (the action continues into the present). That is obviously not the same as Fain, who is not still merging with someone else. It is clearly the former case, where RJ's usage of the tense is meant to focus on a present result. Fain has side-stepped the pattern. What is the present result from that? He is in a state of "side-steppedness."

 

In the case of your example, context would have to tell us what the implications were to you having jumped over the puddle yesterday.

What do you mean? What implications? It's something I did. Past tense. Not present participle.

 

As I just said, above. You are not still jumping over the puddle, so your use of the present perfect tense is the former usage outlined by wikipedia. The tense serves to focus on a present result of having jumped over a puddle... i.e., an implication.

 

Now, about that list... reposting it is like repeatedly describing someone to me as, 'different.' That person is just... different. If you don't ever explain with a word other than 'different,' I'm going to have no idea what you mean. So, without resorting to just posting your list, how does anything I wrote up as a possible way for Fain to be involved (and the DO to be 'killed'--even though I don't think that is likely) violate your list?

I've given the quotes. How is it supposed to be described "differently"? It's the facts we've been given. Why would I describe them differently? I don't get what you're after.

 

Imagine this conversation:

You: That guy is special.

Me: Special how?

You: Special.

Me: Yeah, but how? He has ordinary clothes on. He has ordinary shoes.

You: He's special.

Me: I don't get what you're saying. The guy has a normal haircut. He's average height and weight. What makes him special?

You: He's special.

Me: Could you explain how he is special, without using the word 'special'?

You: I've posted that already.

Me: OK, so tell me.

You: He's special.

 

You are explaining nothing by just posting that list. Normally, once a person realizes that what they thought they were explaining is, in fact, not engendering understanding in their audience, they change the way they approach the question. They clarify according to the situation. They evaluate why their audience doesn't understand, or what counter argument the audience is using, and they modify their approach to answer that confusion.

 

You're not doing that. You're just reposting the same list over and over, expecting a different result. There's a name for that...

 

If you read what I wrote, there were plenty of caveats about how the DO limits himself and takes on a physical form in the Pattern, a physical form that Fain can interact with.

Why would that limit the Dark One?

 

Why would there be a limit to what a channeler can channel?

Why would there be a different power for women vs. men?

Why would an a'dam prevent a damane from being involved in a larger circle?

 

Because these are mechanics of the universe. So would the DO becoming weaker be a mechanic of the universe. I understand that this mechanic doesn't exist yet, but there hasn't yet been the opportunity (or, from the DO's perspective, the need) to use the mechanic.

 

I, for one, don't go for the general idea that Rand will kill the DO, since the DO is essentially a god, but Shaidar Haran makes things interesting. Certainly Rand, mortal and bound in the Pattern, couldn't kill the DO, but if the DO elected to limit his own powers... by, say, too strongly inhabiting his avatar of Shaidar Haran... then I could see a situation where Rand could kill the DO. If the DO saw an opportunity to finally realize his plan, but he had to risk limited power, mortality, and final death by inhabiting Shaidar Haran to do it... that could be a way to kill the DO.

 

Kill Shaidar Haran, kill the DO.

 

Or it could give Fain something physical to tackle through the Bore, out into the void... or into a vacuole... meaning that the DO would be forever bound to the Shaidar Haran construct, until he could get that construct back into the Pattern somehow (which, of course, he could not do, limited in his power as he would be, in the Shaidar Haran avatar). It is a tidy way of getting around most of the larger arguments against this sort of "final" ending for the constant returning of the DO.

 

Several scenarios there for the heroes to end the cycle of the DO's influence.

Shaidar Haran isn't exactly an Avatar, according to RJ. Killing Shaidar Haran isn't much of an achievement, compared to killing the DO.

 

Don't get hung up on my diction. The point is that Shaidar Haran provides a vehicle into which the DO could invest himself, taking on some mortal risk, surrendering part of his power, in order to accomplish some task that would allow him some step toward his goal. But that corporeal presence also gives Rand and/or Fain something to kill, or to tackle through the Bore or into a vacuole.

 

And before you ask how killing Shaidar Haran would kill the DO, remember, it would be a new mechanic. Once invested, the DO is at risk. RJ/BS would only need to lay the foundation for understanding that mechanic before it came to a head and the DO was taken out.

 

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not arguing *for* this to be the case, only that this possibility does not violate what we know of the universe. If it does so violate what we know, please be kind enough to point it out to me, using a word other than 'different.' ;)

Why would I use the word "different" (have I used that word before?)? It does violate the facts that we've been given. The ones I put into the list.

 

I used the word "different," there, as a way of recalling my previous request to you to post something other than your list (see the smiley? that was what I meant by that)... or at least to explain to me how what I had written contradicted anything specific you included on that list, because I don't see it.

[Nightstrike]

No, he doesn't have to merge with someone else, or be merging with someone else... that doesn't have anything to do with RJ's quote being in the present perfect tense, nor with what I am saying.

It was in past tense.

 

If Fain's merging is the event that caused him to side-step the Pattern, then RJ's use of the present perfect tense means that that one event somehow continues into the present.

He side-stepped the pattern. Past tense. It's a single event that happened in the past. RJ did not say "he is side-stepping the pattern" or "he is in the process of side-stepping the pattern". It's an event - "the step he took" - that happened in the past. It's finished already.

 

 

I used the word "different," there, as a way of recalling my previous request to you to post something other than your list (see the smiley? that was what I meant by that)... or at least to explain to me how what I had written contradicted anything specific you included on that list, because I don't see it.

The list contains facts that we know to be true. We can't add or subtract anything, or even change anything about that list. The list contradicts the things you wish to see written in the last couple of books. So you better start writing your own ending, if you want to see it happen.

 

[water_seeker]

No, he doesn't have to merge with someone else, or be merging with someone else... that doesn't have anything to do with RJ's quote being in the present perfect tense, nor with what I am saying.

It was in past tense.

 

If Fain's merging is the event that caused him to side-step the Pattern, then RJ's use of the present perfect tense means that that one event somehow continues into the present.

He side-stepped the pattern. Past tense. It's a single event that happened in the past. RJ did not say "he is side-stepping the pattern" or "he is in the process of side-stepping the pattern". It's an event - "the step he took" - that happened in the past. It's finished already.

 

Lol, the perfect tense really isn't a hard one to grasp, but it seems to be a stumbling block for some.  An example would be "Barack Obama has been elected President."  He was elected in the past, but the effect of that election is that he is President.

 

Daniel Wallace says this about the perfect tense, "The primary uses of the perfect tense are easy to comprehend, though they are not insignificant...The force of the perfect tense is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past (we are speaking of the perfect indicative here), has results existing in the present time."

 

In essence, it IS past tense, but it affects the present.

 

Fain side-stepped the Pattern (that event happened), and a result of that side-stepping exists in the present.

 

I used the word "different," there, as a way of recalling my previous request to you to post something other than your list (see the smiley? that was what I meant by that)... or at least to explain to me how what I had written contradicted anything specific you included on that list, because I don't see it.

The list contains facts that we know to be true. We can't add or subtract anything, or even change anything about that list. The list contradicts the things you wish to see written in the last couple of books. So you better start writing your own ending, if you want to see it happen.

 

Considering the fact that RJ was a master manipulator, and the fact that he believed easy answers were the result of the wrong questions, I believe we really need to examine the list to see what wiggle room RJ left, rather than merely accept it at face value because we lack the imagination to go further (yay run-on sentences!!).

[Nightstrike]

Lol, the perfect tense really isn't a hard one to grasp, but it seems to be a stumbling block for some.

Sadly, that's true. A singular event that has been completed in the past ("the step") doesn't mean that something completely different should happen in the future.

 

An example would be "Barack Obama has been elected President."  He was elected in the past, but the effect of that election is that he is President.

I've never suggested that side-stepping the Pattern could not have effects that are now part of the Pattern. I've clearly stated that it is part of the Pattern now. That wasn't the issue. The issue was whether he continually side-steps the Pattern in every way that rubbernilly wishes him to.

 

Daniel Wallace says this about the perfect tense, "The primary uses of the perfect tense are easy to comprehend, though they are not insignificant...The force of the perfect tense is simply that it describes an event that, completed in the past (we are speaking of the perfect indicative here), has results existing in the present time."

I've said that much already.

 

In essence, it IS past tense, but it affects the present.

I've said that much already.

 

Fain side-stepped the Pattern (that event happened), and a result of that side-stepping exists in the present.

I've said that much already.

 

Considering the fact that RJ was a master manipulator, and the fact that he believed easy answers were the result of the wrong questions, I believe we really need to examine the list to see what wiggle room RJ left, rather than merely accept it at face value because we lack the imagination to go further (yay run-on sentences!!).

He didn't leave the wiggle room that some people would have wanted. That doesn't stop people from seeing wiggle room where there is none.

 

 

[rubbernilly]

No, he doesn't have to merge with someone else, or be merging with someone else... that doesn't have anything to do with RJ's quote being in the present perfect tense, nor with what I am saying.

It was in past tense.

 

This is where that larger font size is supposed to show you're more correct, right? What a joke.

 

BTW, what was in the past tense? Certainly not RJ's quote. I was unaware that anything else was under debate.

 

If Fain's merging is the event that caused him to side-step the Pattern, then RJ's use of the present perfect tense means that that one event somehow continues into the present.

He side-stepped the pattern. Past tense.

Yes, your statement is past tense. Of course, that isn't what RJ said.

 

It's a single event that happened in the past. RJ did not say "he is side-stepping the pattern" or "he is in the process of side-stepping the pattern".

Neither did he say, "Fain side-stepped the Pattern." What did he say, again? Oh, right: "Fain HAS side-stepped the Pattern."

 

Look at it this way. "Merging" is the thing which happened in the past. If RJ wanted to reference that, he would have said, "You might say that Fain unwittingly merged with someone." However, his use of the present perfect tense meant that he was referencing a present-moment effect of that merging. Although the singular event is over and done (no more merging) the effect continues. The effect is that Fain has side-stepped the pattern.

 

You know, it's interesting. In this debate, you are forced to use the past tense to describe what happened, and I am forced to use the present perfect tense to explain how the effects of what happened continue into the present. What tense did RJ use, again? Right. The present perfect.

 

Fain is like a wagon wheel which has popped up out of the rut worn in the road. Though he only popped out of the rut once, he continues to roll along outside the rut.

 

I used the word "different," there, as a way of recalling my previous request to you to post something other than your list (see the smiley? that was what I meant by that)... or at least to explain to me how what I had written contradicted anything specific you included on that list, because I don't see it.

The list contains facts that we know to be true. We can't add or subtract anything, or even change anything about that list. The list contradicts the things you wish to see written in the last couple of books. So you better start writing your own ending, if you want to see it happen.

 

I'll type slow. Stay with me. Your apparent strategy, with regard to that list, seems to be:

 

Step 1. Post the List

Step 2.

Step 3. Declare victory

 

(with apologies to Southpark)

 

You're missing a step there. There are two options as to *why* you're missing that step, but neither are flattering for you.

 

Take your list and take my example of the DO possibly limiting his power by inhabiting SH and show me how and where I violated any of Nightstrike's Laws of the Universe, or stop claiming that you've demonstrated such.

[Nightstrike]

In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Past tense. It's a completed action. He has already taken the step. It's not an ongoing process.

 

Still as true as ever:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

 

[rubbernilly]

In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Past tense. It's a completed action. He has already taken the step. It's not an ongoing process.

 

Wow.

 

Just...

 

...wow.

 

Is English not your first language? Can you not recognize the auxiliary verb? Do you understand when and why the perfect tense is used?

 

I've seen people derail on these boards before, but this... this is like the conductor seeing the bridge out ahead and still pushing over the throttle. "Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead!"

 

There is nothing the ToS on this site would let me say about you or your post that that post and your obdurate fatuity do not convey better.

 

Still as true as ever:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

 

Well done. You completed step 1 (post the list), and step 3 (claim victory). You just happened to miss step 2 again... showing how those numbered points matter.

 

Although what I'm about to do is akin to justifying that water is wet... justifying it against someone who claims a cookbook is evidence that I'm wrong... I will match up your list against my example. Of course this is what you should be doing if you think your list invalidates my example. But you likely see where that would lead. If you can't win on specifics, claim victory in the abstract.

 

Just so it is close at hand, here is my example:

I, for one, don't go for the general idea that Rand will kill the DO, since the DO is essentially a god, but Shaidar Haran makes things interesting. Certainly Rand, mortal and bound in the Pattern, couldn't kill the DO, but if the DO elected to limit his own powers... by, say, too strongly inhabiting his avatar of Shaidar Haran... then I could see a situation where Rand could kill the DO. If the DO saw an opportunity to finally realize his plan, but he had to risk limited power, mortality, and final death by inhabiting Shaidar Haran to do it... that could be a way to kill the DO.

 

Kill Shaidar Haran, kill the DO.

 

Or it could give Fain something physical to tackle through the Bore, out into the void... or into a vacuole... meaning that the DO would be forever bound to the Shaidar Haran construct, until he could get that construct back into the Pattern somehow (which, of course, he could not do, limited in his power as he would be, in the Shaidar Haran avatar). It is a tidy way of getting around most of the larger arguments against this sort of "final" ending for the constant returning of the DO.

 

Several scenarios there for the heroes to end the cycle of the DO's influence.

 

Let's see what your list has to say about that.

 

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

Aside from you having more trouble with your verbs, there is nothing here that conflicts with what I wrote.

2. Creatures have free will.

Although I contest this point on semantic and presuppositional grounds, nothing here conflicts with the example I wrote.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

Nothing to conflict here.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

Nothing to conflict here. In fact, in what I wrote it is the knowledge that he is close to winning that prompts him to inhabit Shaidar Haran.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

Nothing here conflicts. Since the DO is outside the Pattern, his influence doesn’t violate this Law of Nightstrike’s Universe. Of course, since he is outside the Pattern, his influence in ending the AoL was actually not the way the Pattern would have ended that Age on its own (just as an example). If, as I wrote, Fain or Rand managed to kill a DO-inhabited Shaidar Haran (and thus the DO), or if Fain managed to tackle Shaidar Haran into a vacuole, that would actually be a step *toward* the Pattern’s destiny. It would be a step toward returning the Pattern to what it was intended to be without the DO’s involvement.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

Not yet. This Turning, and this crop of heroes, are just like those who were called upon before. Those who came before, though, didn’t do what was necessary to completely free the Wheel of the DO’s influence. That is yet to come. When you think about it, if you were RJ, and you had in your back pocket the knowledge that the series was going to end exactly as I wrote in my example, but you were asked about this Age being any different from previous ones... how would you answer? You’d say that this Age isn’t any different from other Turnings. Because it isn’t. But that still leaves room for the ending I wrote. In other words, no conflict here.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

Nothing in conflict here.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

Nothing in conflict here.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

Nothing in conflict here.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

Nothing in conflict here. The Wheel may very well, in the next turning, weave in someone (2 someones), who would investigate alternate sources of power than the True Source. They may even drill the Bore into the DO’s prison. Cue the crickets: there’s nothing there. Either the DO is dead, or he’s in a vacuole trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran, or he is stuck in the void trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran. In any case derived from my example, the DO isn’t there to pour through the Bore and/or offer them to channel the TP. The Bore-drillers lose interest, close their ‘incision’ through the Pattern, and the Wheel moves on. That Age comes to an end in the way that the Pattern would have always intended it to, before the DO got involved.

 

Let’s see... let me just scan that list again... yep. Nothing in conflict with what I wrote. Of course, you knew that already. That’s why you’ve been avoiding what I just did.

 

[Nightstrike]

In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

Past tense. It's a completed action. He has already taken the step. It's not an ongoing process.

 

Wow.

 

Just...

 

...wow.

 

Is English not your first language? Can you not recognize the auxiliary verb? Do you understand when and why the perfect tense is used?

 

I've seen people derail on these boards before, but this... this is like the conductor seeing the bridge out ahead and still pushing over the throttle. "Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead!"

 

There is nothing the ToS on this site would let me say about you or your post that that post and your obdurate fatuity do not convey better.

"He has" means that it's something he has done "presently". "Side-stepped" means that it happened in the past. A step is something you have either completed already or it's something you're presently in the process of doing. In this case, it's past tense. So the step has been completed.

 

 

Still as true as ever:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

=> Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

Nothing in conflict here. The Wheel may very well, in the next turning, weave in someone (2 someones), who would investigate alternate sources of power than the True Source. They may even drill the Bore into the DO’s prison. Cue the crickets: there’s nothing there. Either the DO is dead, or he’s in a vacuole trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran, or he is stuck in the void trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran. In any case derived from my example, the DO isn’t there to pour through the Bore and/or offer them to channel the TP. The Bore-drillers lose interest, close their ‘incision’ through the Pattern, and the Wheel moves on. That Age comes to an end in the way that the Pattern would have always intended it to, before the DO got involved.

:D Fain being a god, right? Changing the destiny of the Great Pattern much?  :D  The DO being a powerless piece of meat equal to Shaidar Haran?

 

Shaidar Haran isn't nearly as powerful as the DO. Imagine the whole of DO, not just the pinky he's got through the Bore. (That's an analogy, since the DO has no true form.)    

 

 

[water_seeker]

He didn't leave the wiggle room that some people would have wanted. That doesn't stop people from seeing wiggle room where there is none.

 

Just because you don't have the imagination to see the wiggle room he left doesn't mean it isn't there. ;)

 

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

Aside from you having more trouble with your verbs, there is nothing here that conflicts with what I wrote.

2. Creatures have free will.

Although I contest this point on semantic and presuppositional grounds, nothing here conflicts with the example I wrote.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

Nothing to conflict here.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

Nothing to conflict here. In fact, in what I wrote it is the knowledge that he is close to winning that prompts him to inhabit Shaidar Haran.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

Nothing here conflicts. Since the DO is outside the Pattern, his influence doesn’t violate this Law of Nightstrike’s Universe. Of course, since he is outside the Pattern, his influence in ending the AoL was actually not the way the Pattern would have ended that Age on its own (just as an example). If, as I wrote, Fain or Rand managed to kill a DO-inhabited Shaidar Haran (and thus the DO), or if Fain managed to tackle Shaidar Haran into a vacuole, that would actually be a step *toward* the Pattern’s destiny. It would be a step toward returning the Pattern to what it was intended to be without the DO’s involvement.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

Not yet. This Turning, and this crop of heroes, are just like those who were called upon before. Those who came before, though, didn’t do what was necessary to completely free the Wheel of the DO’s influence. That is yet to come. When you think about it, if you were RJ, and you had in your back pocket the knowledge that the series was going to end exactly as I wrote in my example, but you were asked about this Age being any different from previous ones... how would you answer? You’d say that this Age isn’t any different from other Turnings. Because it isn’t. But that still leaves room for the ending I wrote. In other words, no conflict here.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

Nothing in conflict here.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

Nothing in conflict here.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

Nothing in conflict here.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

Nothing in conflict here. The Wheel may very well, in the next turning, weave in someone (2 someones), who would investigate alternate sources of power than the True Source. They may even drill the Bore into the DO’s prison. Cue the crickets: there’s nothing there. Either the DO is dead, or he’s in a vacuole trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran, or he is stuck in the void trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran. In any case derived from my example, the DO isn’t there to pour through the Bore and/or offer them to channel the TP. The Bore-drillers lose interest, close their ‘incision’ through the Pattern, and the Wheel moves on. That Age comes to an end in the way that the Pattern would have always intended it to, before the DO got involved.

 

Let’s see... let me just scan that list again... yep. Nothing in conflict with what I wrote. Of course, you knew that already. That’s why you’ve been avoiding what I just did.

 

Hey look!!  Wiggle room. :D  But then you largely ignored the wiggle room someone else saw...you kinda remind me of the dwarves at the end of The Last Battle.  ***Last Battle spoiler*** You know, where they could see a whole new world if only they would accept it's there, but sadly they never do. :(

[Nightstrike]

In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

"He has" means that it's something he has done "presently". "Side-stepped" means that it happened in the past. A step is something you have either completed already or it's something you're presently in the process of doing. In this case, it's past tense. So the step has been completed.

 

 

Still as true as ever:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

=> Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

 

 

Hey look!!  Wiggle room. :D  But then you largely ignored the wiggle room someone else saw...you kinda remind me of the dwarves at the end of The Last Battle.  ***Last Battle spoiler*** You know, where they could see a whole new world if only they would accept it's there, but sadly they never do. :(

Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Fain is no god. Fain is a mixture of SL evil and the Dark One's own evil. Shadar Logoth kind of evil might have existed before. But Fain is no god. Not even close. He is a speck of dust with threads in the Pattern. Much smaller and much less significant than the Wheel or the Dark One. The Dark One will destroy the Wheel if he gets free. Fain couldn't destroy the Wheel. No wiggle room whatsoever.

 

 

[water_seeker]

In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

"He has" means that it's something he has done "presently". "Side-stepped" means that it happened in the past.

 

So, what you're saying is that he "presently side-stepped the Pattern in the past?"  That's nonsensical.

 

A step is something you have either completed already or it's something you're presently in the process of doing.

 

lol ???  A step could be (ooh, it's my turn for a list):

 

1. Something you're doing.

2. Something you did.

3. Something you have yet to do.

4. Something you tell someone to do (ie. "step on that bug for me").

5. Something you wish would happen (ie. "I wish someone would step on that bug for me").

 

Here's why I made a list...I wanted to point out there was no reason for you pointing out when the step happened.  Again, that's nonsensical.

 

In this case, it's past tense. So the step has been completed.

 

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the step happened.  I'm pretty sure we all agree that there are ramifications of Fain side-stepping the Pattern extending into the present.  I'm also pretty sure that it's the magnitude of the ramifications that is at the heart of this disagreement.

 

So, tell me if this next statement is right:  You (Nightstrike) believe that whatever fallout from Fain side-steping the Pattern has been assimilated into the Pattern.

 

If that is what you're saying then this discussion might be able to go forward from there, because thus far this thread has been more cyclical than tWoT itself.

 

Still as true as ever:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

=> Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

Nobody disagrees with the list (except for maybe the freewill part), so please stop posting it as though we do.  It's just that some people see more freedom in the list than you do.

 

Hey look!!  Wiggle room. :D  But then you largely ignored the wiggle room someone else saw...you kinda remind me of the dwarves at the end of The Last Battle.  ***Last Battle spoiler*** You know, where they could see a whole new world if only they would accept it's there, but sadly they never do. :(

Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Fain is no god. Fain is a mixture of SL evil and the Dark One's own evil. Shadar Logoth kind of evil might have existed before. But Fain is no god. Not even close. He is a speck of dust with threads in the Pattern. Much smaller and much less significant than the Wheel or the Dark One. The Dark One will destroy the Wheel if he gets free. Fain couldn't destroy the Wheel. No wiggle room whatsoever.

 

You downplay the SL evil (or possibly more frightening, the amalgamation of the Sl evil with the DO evil) that has taken over Fain's soul.  It is quite possible that "Fain" is no longer simply Fain.

[Nightstrike]

In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

"He has" means that it's something he has done "presently". "Side-stepped" means that it happened in the past.

 

So, what you're saying is that he "presently side-stepped the Pattern in the past?"  That's nonsensical.

Are you joking? I didn't say that, so you must be joking.

 

A step is something you have either completed already or it's something you're presently in the process of doing.

 

lol ???  A step could be (ooh, it's my turn for a list):

 

1. Something you're doing.

2. Something you did.

3. Something you have yet to do.

4. Something you tell someone to do (ie. "step on that bug for me").

5. Something you wish would happen (ie. "I wish someone would step on that bug for me").

Correct, and he's taken the step. So it's number 2 on your list. ;)

 

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the step happened.

Rubbernilly objects.

 

So, tell me if this next statement is right:  You (Nightstrike) believe that whatever fallout from Fain side-steping the Pattern has been assimilated into the Pattern.

It's a part of the Pattern now. It's a fact that he unwittingly took the step. He has had his encounter with Mordeth.

 

Fain won't change the destiny of the Great Pattern. Fain is no god. Fain is a mixture of SL evil and the Dark One's own evil. Shadar Logoth kind of evil might have existed before. But Fain is no god. Not even close. He is a speck of dust with threads in the Pattern. Much smaller and much less significant than the Wheel or the Dark One. The Dark One will destroy the Wheel if he gets free. Fain couldn't destroy the Wheel. No wiggle room whatsoever.

You downplay the SL evil (or possibly more frightening, the amalgamation of the Sl evil with the DO evil) that has taken over Fain's soul.  It is quite possible that "Fain" is no longer simply Fain.

Most of Shadar Logoth is gone. Only the Dagger remains. Mordeth was never a god. Fain was never a god. New amalgamated Fain is no god. Shadar Logoth was a part of the Wheel. A small part of the Wheel. The Dark One can destroy the Wheel. The Dark One can destroy Fain. Fain can not destroy the Dark One. As simple as that.

 

 

[RUSH]

Holy multiple-pages-of-copying-and-pasting-and-big-fonts-to-make-a-point, did the forum have a messy burp and this is the unfortunate, smelly result?

 

Around here, I suppose, this qualifies as business as usual?

 

Taking a meta-step back, let's look at the mechanics of the story structure itself.  Fain, as a character, had better exist as more than "random mook who slashes Our Hero with the Dagger of Ultimate Evil" placeholder.  Fain was introduced too early and has been used and fleshed out too much for him to simply be a bit player. 

 

I maintain that whatever Fain's ultimate purpose, it hasn't yet come to pass.  By side-stepping the pattern, he is acting outside of it, which means his actions are not guided/forced by the pattern.  If he's not in the pattern, then everything he does might act as a sort of pseudo-balefire, causing unexpected ripples in the fabric of reality.  If he could somehow stab Rand while Rand is wielding massive amounts of OP to fight the no-longer-imprisoned DO... well, according to the news, a sufficiently-powerful earthquake can (and did) shift the earth's axis.  Who knows.

 

He may not be strong enough by himself to enact any big changes, but his fixation on killing Rand and his pattern side-steppy-ness will likely be used against him to somehow save the day, Gollum style.

 

If you're saying Fain's already played his part, what was it?  Why did RJ even bother to include him in the story?  "Hmm, I better come up with a name for the guy who gives Rand the second wound..."

 

Authors love to set up their rules and then break them in (hopefully) clever ways.  Sometimes it's a real groaner, deus ex machina style.  Sometimes it's so clever that readers smack themselves on the forehead in a "Duh!  Why didn't I think of that?" moment, and in hindsight, the rules either weren't really broken, or the rules didn't quite mean what we thought they meant.

 

If you aren't able to read between the lines of your list and see the possibilities... well, you lack imagination.  Fortunately, RJ doesn't seem to have had that problem. 

[Nightstrike]

I think he has some role to play yet. Killing someone of the Light's enemies. Don't know who. It sure won't be the Dark One himself, though.

 

It could be Shaidar Haran, or it could be someone else.

[Skyphoenix]

this is how i think it is *SPOILER* after rand dies, the 1st time, since he was proficient in going to the world of dreams and coming back, rand is sent there by the horn, then returns because the battle isn't finished. while the 3 ladies, or elane, and avandha with rand, or whoever is using callanor, after rands return, his use of both sadair and sadin since callanor has to be regulated by sadair, which implies it's not only a sa'angreal but a sa'angreal for both sadair, and sadin. anyways, at the end rand channels enough energy to use the wheel of time itself to bind the dark one, and the powers of the creator and the dark one cancel eachother out destroying the dark one and the wheel itself shatters, however since the dark one wasn't the one to do it, the threads in the pattern continue on. without the wheel to dictate their paths.

[rubbernilly]

"He has" means that it's something he has done "presently". "Side-stepped" means that it happened in the past. A step is something you have either completed already or it's something you're presently in the process of doing. In this case, it's past tense. So the step has been completed.

 

The merging happened. That (presumably) was the thing that let Fain side-step the pattern. However, if the past event were the only thing RJ was referencing, he would have said, "You might say Fain side-stepped the Pattern" (simple past tense). That RJ used the present perfect tense ("has side-stepped"), means that something -- some effect, implication, or result -- continues into the present.

 

Imagine Cornelius and Jacob. Cornelius drives a wagon for Jacob.

 

Example 1:

On Monday, the wagon jumps out of its rut. On Tuesday, the wagon crashes. Presently, Jacob asks Cornelius why that happened, and Cornelius responds:

"Because the wagon jumped its rut."

(simple past tense)

 

Example 2:

On Monday, the wagon jumps out of its rut. On Tuesday, Cornelius comes to Jacob with concerns that the wagon might crash.  Presently, Jacob asks why Cornelius thinks there might be an accident, and Cornelius responds:

"Because the wagon has jumped its rut."

(present perfect tense)

 

In both examples, the wagon jumped out of its rut at the same time relative to the conversation between the two men. It's in the past. In the first example, though, the results of that event are also in the past, so Cornelius uses the past tense. In the second example, Cornelius still expects consequences presently (or in the future). This is what the present perfect tense does (one of the things): it puts a focus on present results from some past event.

 

Similarly, RJ's quote puts a focus on consequences-yet-to-come. There is something yet to come for Fain that will be the consequence of him having side-stepped the Pattern. That much cannot be (rationally) denied. That is simple analysis of the English language.

 

Still as true as ever:

Still as irrelevant as ever.

 

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

Nothing in conflict here. The Wheel may very well, in the next turning, weave in someone (2 someones), who would investigate alternate sources of power than the True Source. They may even drill the Bore into the DO’s prison. Cue the crickets: there’s nothing there. Either the DO is dead, or he’s in a vacuole trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran, or he is stuck in the void trapped in the body of Shaidar Haran. In any case derived from my example, the DO isn’t there to pour through the Bore and/or offer them to channel the TP. The Bore-drillers lose interest, close their ‘incision’ through the Pattern, and the Wheel moves on. That Age comes to an end in the way that the Pattern would have always intended it to, before the DO got involved.

:D Fain being a god, right?

You obviously haven't read my example. Why would Fain have to be a god to kill/occupy something which is less than a god? He doesn't have to be a god to kill the DO if the DO willingly limits his own powers to a degree that would allow for his own mortality. Inhabiting SH would be a believable mechanic whereby this limiting could be accomplished.

 

Changing the destiny of the Great Pattern much?  :D

You obviously haven't read my example. Fain wouldn't be altering the destiny of the Pattern. The DO has been doing that. Fain would just be removing/occupying the entity who has been attempting to change the destiny of the Pattern. You think that the Pattern's destiny includes the DO's influence. Since the DO is outside the Pattern, it is more plausible to see things as the Pattern's destiny was something that didn't include the DO's influence. Fain, by occupying/removing the DO, is acting in concert with the Pattern's destiny... by coincidence, of course. After all, he *has* side-stepped the Pattern, and we have yet to see the present-time consequences of that which RJ sought to bring our attention to when he used the present perfect tense.

 

The DO being a powerless piece of meat equal to Shaidar Haran?

You obviously haven't read my example. I never equate them. I suggest that the DO could, possibly in combination with surrendering some measure of his power and immortality, inhabit SH.

 

Shaidar Haran isn't nearly as powerful as the DO.

Not yet. And actually, not even when the DO 'inhabits' him in the example I wrote up, since that inhabitation would result in the DO sacrificing some of his power/presence/immortality.

 

Imagine the whole of DO, not just the pinky he's got through the Bore. (That's an analogy, since the DO has no true form.)    

Imagine the DO giving up that power in order to inhabit SH and accomplish some goal directly. After all, as you say, he has no true form. That is the benefit of SH: a corporeal form.

 

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the step happened.

Rubbernilly objects.

No I don't. Quit being obtuse and learn what the present perfect tense means.

[OptimusPrime]

What is basically being said is that Fain, in doing all this side steppy past present perfect wierd tensing existence type thing, has become something created by the Pattern that is now no longer OF the Pattern, thus no longer fitting the object RJ described as "not being able to affect the destiny of the Great Pattern." Correct?

 

 

[rubbernilly]

What is basically being said is that Fain, in doing all this side steppy past present perfect wierd tensing existence type thing, has become something created by the Pattern that is now no longer OF the Pattern, thus no longer fitting the object RJ described as "not being able to affect the destiny of the Great Pattern." Correct?

 

Pretty close, yeah.

 

When the debate gets this... pedantic... you have to be careful about what you can substantiate (as a matter of fact) and what you believe (as a matter of opinion).

 

By even the strictest (rational) interpretation of RJ's quotes, we know that Fain side-stepped the Pattern and is outside of its direction in ways that other people are not. However, by the strictest interpretation, Fain is still a part of the Pattern even though he is out from under its direction. That means that we can't say that we know Fain is capable of destroying the Pattern. What I mean is that there is at least one rational, plausible (if very strict) interpretation of RJ's quotes that provides the upper limit of what we can say that we know: Fain is a part of the Pattern and subject to the limitation of not being able to destroy the Pattern.

 

I am arguing for the possibility of different ways Fain could kill or incapacitate or occupy the DO... even within that very strict interpretation of what RJ has said.

 

Personally, like I've mentioned elsewhere, I think of Fain as an anti-ta'veren. Where a ta'veren pulls strings around him/her to gather what is needed, Fain resists the pull of any other threads in the Pattern.

[Nightstrike]

The merging happened. That (presumably) was the thing that let Fain side-step the pattern. However, if the past event were the only thing RJ was referencing, he would have said, "You might say Fain side-stepped the Pattern" (simple past tense). That RJ used the present perfect tense ("has side-stepped"), means that something -- some effect, implication, or result -- continues into the present.

No, RJ said it was something that has happened. Has happened. Has happened. Has happened. A step that has happened. A step that has happened. A step that has happened. As simple as that.

 

Which doesn't say that it isn't part of the Pattern now. It is, and he is still merged with Mordeth.

 

After all, he *has* side-stepped the Pattern, and we have yet to see the present-time consequences of that which RJ sought to bring our attention to when he used the present perfect tense.

Past tense. RJ used past tense. As simple as that.

 

For instance, "I have stepped over a certain puddle". That means past tense.

 

The DO being a powerless piece of meat equal to Shaidar Haran?

You obviously haven't read my example. I never equate them. I suggest that the DO could, possibly in combination with surrendering some measure of his power and immortality, inhabit SH.

Good, for the SH point of view shows us that he isn't the DO. If the DO would get his whole arm inside the Wheel, then it would be the end. No more Wheel.

 

Imagine the DO giving up that power in order to inhabit SH and accomplish some goal directly. After all, as you say, he has no true form. That is the benefit of SH: a corporeal form.

Why would he do that (if it's possible?), if Shadar Logoth evil would be any threat. Which it isn't. He is greater than the taint on saidin. He is greater than the Wheel.

 

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the step happened.

Rubbernilly objects.

No I don't. Quit being obtuse and learn what the present perfect tense means.

You've argued for it being something he is doing. So you have objected. Past tense means that Fain has taken the step already.

 

By even the strictest (rational) interpretation of RJ's quotes, we know that Fain side-stepped the Pattern and is outside of its direction in ways that other people are not. However, by the strictest interpretation, Fain is still a part of the Pattern even though he is out from under its direction. That means that we can't say that we know Fain is capable of destroying the Pattern. What I mean is that there is at least one rational, plausible (if very strict) interpretation of RJ's quotes that provides the upper limit of what we can say that we know: Fain is a part of the Pattern and subject to the limitation of not being able to destroy the Pattern.

 

I am arguing for the possibility of different ways Fain could kill or incapacitate or occupy the DO... even within that very strict interpretation of what RJ has said.

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

Mordeth & Fain merged (before) TGH. The year TGH was published was 1990. Shaidar Haran has been known to us since 1994. Both were present before 2001...

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

What is basically being said is that Fain, in doing all this side steppy past present perfect wierd tensing existence type thing, has become something created by the Pattern that is now no longer OF the Pattern, thus no longer fitting the object RJ described as "not being able to affect the destiny of the Great Pattern." Correct?

 

Pretty close, yeah.

 

When the debate gets this... pedantic... you have to be careful about what you can substantiate (as a matter of fact) and what you believe (as a matter of opinion).

 

By even the strictest (rational) interpretation of RJ's quotes, we know that Fain side-stepped the Pattern and is outside of its direction in ways that other people are not. However, by the strictest interpretation, Fain is still a part of the Pattern even though he is out from under its direction. That means that we can't say that we know Fain is capable of destroying the Pattern. What I mean is that there is at least one rational, plausible (if very strict) interpretation of RJ's quotes that provides the upper limit of what we can say that we know: Fain is a part of the Pattern and subject to the limitation of not being able to destroy the Pattern.

 

I am arguing for the possibility of different ways Fain could kill or incapacitate or occupy the DO... even within that very strict interpretation of what RJ has said.

 

I am inclined to agree, because Fain is now no longer what he originally was, THAT is what gives him that "wildcard" descripter.

 

Personally, like I've mentioned elsewhere, I think of Fain as an anti-ta'veren. Where a ta'veren pulls strings around him/her to gather what is needed, Fain resists the pull of any other threads in the Pattern.

 

I get what you mean. I have a similar theory, but as opposed to being anti-Ta'veren I myself think Fain possesses the same luck that Mat does, as in, he becomes the deciding factor in purely random situations. This I think is one of the abilities Fain got through Mordeth, who gained it as an ability to fight the Shadow, who get kicks out of creating chaos.

 

Check this out for a purely "random" thought.

 

Mordeth got his powers from a third entity.

 

The True Power, which everyone knows is supposed to be the opposite of the True Source, is drawn from the Dark One. This, by extension, surely means teh True Source is drawn from the Creator-this fits, because the True Source drives the Wheel-the Creators construct-forward to weave the Pattern.

 

Both Powers use weaves woven in a certain way to create a certain effect. Fact.

 

Fains power that he got from Mordeth can make weaves, we saw that in TGH when Rand got caught in Fains trap. What are the only things that can make weaves? Powers drawn from higher entities, of course. What has the ability to harm or overcome the Dark One? The One Power of course, which is drawn from the pure opposite of the Dark One himself. What is Mordeths power described as? An evil designed to fight the Shadow, another evil that is attracted to the taint/True Power.

 

I think Fain can channel a third Power. Either way, whatever it is that he can do, from Eye of the World it has been stated that the Shadar Logoth evil source came about in order to fight the Shadow by being as evil as it. Whatever happens, Fain is definitely no longer normal in any case, because he can do things the Dark One didnt grant him, and he has abilities that come from a power that became as bad as the Dark One to fight the Dark One.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q:  What is Fain?

RJ:  Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

 

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

He cannot channel as we know it, no. But he can make weaves of something, it is there in TGH.

 

Whatever it is that Fain does, the source of that power is very much like a different version of the True Power.

 

Channelers of the One Power can sense Shadowspawn. Fain can sense Darkfriends and even people who have thought about becoming a Darkfriend. He can make weaves that forms traps, weaves that saidin can cut. That means there is at least a small level of similarity between whatever Fain does and channeling. And also, in Shadar Logoth the antimagnetism between saidin and saidar is similar to the magnetism between the taint/True Power and the Shadar Logoth evil force.

 

Im not saying Fain can channel, because that refers to the One Power. Like being able to use the True Power requires being a channeler, whereas Fains ability obviously doesnt. Im saying Fain can draw something from another power source, and weave it, like something that channelers do.