What Sort of Ending Do You Want for the Series?

[Nightstrike]

Maybe you should write your own ending?

[OptimusPrime]

Id sooner write my own definition of the word "stepped," but obviously Id have to make it very simple.

[Nightstrike]

I'd go by the real life definition instead.  ;)

[rubbernilly]

Nightstrike, you have brought your cookbook to a gun fight.

 

Look pretty much all of your objection derives from your belief that the statement from RJ is past tense.

...well, and a lack of imagination.

...and an inability to think in the abstract.

...and an urge to regularly, prematurely, and impotently declare victory.

 

But mostly it's that belief that RJ's quote is in the past tense, and a general misunderstanding of verb tenses. I don't know if it is because that you want to believe that Fain is nothing special, but something is leading you to stick your fingers in your ears and make demonstrably false statements.

 

For instance, here:

 

I'm pretty sure we all agree that the step happened.

Rubbernilly objects.

No I don't. Quit being obtuse and learn what the present perfect tense means.

You've argued for it being something he is doing. So you have objected. Past tense means that Fain has taken the step already.

Where did I argue that? Provide a quote, please. Something "he is doing" is present progressive. I have consistently said that the even (the step to the side) happened in the past, but that the ramifications of that (like being a wagon wheel still out of a rut) continue into the present.

 

Soooooo... never say that I didn't do anything for you. Despite your considerable efforts to the contrary, I'm going to try to keep you from looking more silly, more foolish, than you are.

 

Just do this...

 

Take the quote from RJ ("You might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern."), and show it to any teacher of english. Any. A college prof, an ESL instructor, a high school teacher. I'm sure you have one 3rd or 4th period.

 

Ask them to diagram the sentence and tell you what the verb is and what tense it is in.

 

They won't be able to interpret it, since they aren't familiar with the context, but they can at least set you straight on the tense.

 

Do that, and then report back here.

 

Alternately, why don't you tell us how *you* recognize the present perfect tense.

[Nightstrike]

Re: What will make this Turning of the Wheel Different?

« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2010, 06:06:19 PM »

Now, second thing. I said that I agreed with you: "side-stepped" is past tense. We were wrong. I should have looked at the quote more closely before I agreed with you. The verb is "has side-stepped." That is Present Perfect.

The verb form is past tense. "Side-stepped" is the verb used for past tense. The sentence is about something he did in the past. He unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern. The step occured in the past. He has completed the step, and he is still an amalgam including "the human-made evil" that went by the name "Mordeth".

 

Re: What will make this Turning of the Wheel Different?

« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2010, 11:33:39 AM »

He may still have a thread in the Pattern, but he is not being woven *by* the Pattern.

(His threads are woven by the Wheel.)

 

 

Re: What will make this Turning of the Wheel Different?

« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2010, 07:10:49 PM »

He may exist in the Creation, and therefore be called "of the Pattern," but RJ said Fain has side-stepped the Pattern. That means, to me, that Fain's thread is no longer being woven by the Pattern

 

Fain is weaving his own thread, now.

...   ...

 

Re: What will make this Turning of the Wheel Different?

« Reply #114 on: February 22, 2010, 09:33:14 PM »

"has side-stepped" = present perfect tense

It's something he did in the past. "I have stepped over that puddle."

 

 

[Nightstrike]

OK, it seems the vocabulary gives you right. The verb form is still past tense past participle (I was wrong about the correct vocabulary again). It's a completed action. So the step is already taken, as well as completed (at present).

 

This is from wiktionary:

Noun present perfect

 

1.(grammar) A tense that expresses action completed at the present time; in English it is formed by using the present tense of have with a past participle

Example: I have finished this definition.

 

Wiktionary about "stepped":

Verb stepped

 

1.Simple past tense and past participle of step.

[rubbernilly]

Re: What will make this Turning of the Wheel Different?

« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2010, 06:06:19 PM »

Now, second thing. I said that I agreed with you: "side-stepped" is past tense. We were wrong. I should have looked at the quote more closely before I agreed with you. The verb is "has side-stepped." That is Present Perfect.

The verb form is past tense.

Wait a minute. You're quoting me, where I say that I was wrong for agreeing with you, as evidence that you are right? Can you even keep up with the discussion?

 

Prior to that statement of mine, I had assumed that you were correctly reading the quote. I thought it read: "...he unwittingly side-stepped," because I thought you could recognize and diagnose verb tenses properly. Read the rest of my quote... right after what you bolded, I say that I shouldn't have agreed with you, and explain that it is present perfect. If you don't understand that, then you have even larger difficulties with the language, but let me write out that statement of mine this way, for clarity:

 

I said that I agreed with you when you said "side-stepped" is past tense. Unfortunately, I was wrong to do so. Reading the quote for myself, I see the verb was "has side-stepped". I was wrong to agree with you, because you were wrong. In other words, we were wrong.

 

Now, dude. Just go ask an English instructor you respect what the tense of that RJ quote is. We'll wait. Really. You reputation, on the other hand, will not.

[Nightstrike]

Wait a minute. You're quoting me, where I say that I was wrong for agreeing with you, as evidence that you are right? Can you even keep up with the discussion?

You wanted me to quote you where you said it's something he is presently doing. The stepping part. He had taken the step already. It's in the past.

 

I said that I agreed with you when you said "side-stepped" is past tense. Unfortunately, I was wrong to do so. Reading the quote for myself, I see the verb was "has side-stepped". I was wrong to agree with you, because you were wrong. In other words, we were wrong.

"Side-stepped" is past participle. Forget the vocabulary. It happened in the past. He has already completed the step.

 

Now, dude. Just go ask an English instructor you respect what the tense of that RJ quote is. We'll wait. Really. You reputation, on the other hand, will not.

"Side-stepped" is past participle. Forget the vocabulary. It happened in the past. He has already completed the step.

 

[rubbernilly]

He cannot channel as we know it, no. But he can make weaves of something, it is there in TGH.

 

Whatever it is that Fain does, the source of that power is very much like a different version of the True Power.

 

Channelers of the One Power can sense Shadowspawn. Fain can sense Darkfriends and even people who have thought about becoming a Darkfriend. He can make weaves that forms traps, weaves that saidin can cut. That means there is at least a small level of similarity between whatever Fain does and channeling. And also, in Shadar Logoth the antimagnetism between saidin and saidar is similar to the magnetism between the taint/True Power and the Shadar Logoth evil force.

 

Im not saying Fain can channel, because that refers to the One Power. Like being able to use the True Power requires being a channeler, whereas Fains ability obviously doesnt. Im saying Fain can draw something from another power source, and weave it, like something that channelers do.

 

Another way to look at it is that what Fain is able to do could be more evidence of him being the 'anti-ta'veren.'

 

If you take the idea that he isn't under the direction of the Wheel anymore, and that he resists the pull of other threads to act upon him, and then you run that idea out to the extreme... you could very well arrive in a place where Fain can flex his 'anti-ta'veren' nature to actively pull against other threads and construct illusions or webs. Everything (even inanimate objects) have a thread in the Pattern, so if he had this ability he would certainly have the "ammunition" (as far as other threads) to do the things we've seen him do.

[rubbernilly]

Yes, "side-stepped" is the past participle form of "side-step." The past-participle is not by itself the verb, however.

 

While the action is in the past, the tense is present perfect. You obviously do not understand what that means, but I assure you it is here in this thread.

 

Many times.

 

Many, many times.

 

(It does not mean, as you seem to think I believe, that the action is at all in the present. Quoting me stating that it is present perfect as evidence that I claimed the action is happening now is just... laughably sad. Really. Take a course on grammar, then come back and read this thread. You'll be embarrassed by the things you claimed, and the ways you misunderstand me.)

[Nightstrike]

You've argued for it being something he is doing. So you have objected. Past tense means that Fain has taken the step already.

Where did I argue that? Provide a quote, please. Something "he is doing" is present progressive. I have consistently said that the even (the step to the side) happened in the past, but that the ramifications of that (like being a wagon wheel still out of a rut) continue into the present.

Re: What will make this Turning of the Wheel Different?

« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2010, 06:06:19 PM »

Now, second thing. I said that I agreed with you: "side-stepped" is past tense. We were wrong. I should have looked at the quote more closely before I agreed with you. The verb is "has side-stepped." That is Present Perfect.

 

Fain is *still* beyond the weaving of the Pattern.

(I said "past tense", but it should be "past participle".)

 

...

Now, I really have no horse in the race regarding Fain. It could be as you say, that he is still under the destiny of the Wheel. However, there is ample reason to believe that he is something of a live-wire in the Pattern... as I called him before: the anti-ta'veren. He may exist in the Creation, and therefore be called "of the Pattern," but RJ said Fain has side-stepped the Pattern. That means, to me, that Fain's thread is no longer being woven by the Pattern.

 

Fain is weaving his own thread, now.

 

And, no, that doesn't make him as powerful as the DO or the Creator. I am not one who buys into the Fain-killing-the-DO theory, or Fain-becoming-a-new-DO theory. He is just, by virtue of what was done to him and what he did to himself, in control of his own life/destiny/thread in ways that no one else is.

 

 

[rubbernilly]

Yes, he is still beyond the weaving of the Pattern. Yes, I believe he is weaving his own thread now, and resisting the pull of the Pattern.

 

Neither of those things makes the event which caused him to side-step the pattern any more present than it ever was.

 

Those things are effects of having side-stepped the Pattern.

 

If a wagon wheel jumps out of a rut on Monday, and I tell you on Tuesday that the wagon wheel is "making its own rut now," am I in any way claiming that the wagon wheel is still jumping its rut?

[Nightstrike]

Yes, he is still beyond the weaving of the Pattern. Yes, I believe he is weaving his own thread now, and resisting the pull of the Pattern.

The Wheel weaves his threads. He has free will. Even the ta'veren have free will, though they might be "guided" more intensily than everybody else.

 

If a wagon wheel jumps out of a rut on Monday, and I tell you on Tuesday that the wagon wheel is "making its own rut now," am I in any way claiming that the wagon wheel is still jumping its rut?

That he side-stepped the typical pattern once does not mean that he will keep doing it. Although he is still "amalgamated" with Mordeth. The "human-made evil".

 

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q:  What is Fain?

RJ:  Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The black wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

 

 

 

[Nightstrike]

The Wheel weaves the threads of Shadowspawn as well. Even the stones in Shadar Logoth had threads in the Pattern.

 

The Shadowspawn have free will. Those with souls, anyway.

[rubbernilly]

I've stated my case. You... you've spouted phonemes.

 

I'm willing to let what I've written stand for anyone to read and judge.

 

As others have said, the wiggle room is there. That you can't see it... well, that's on you.

 

Remember, just because your head is making noise does not mean you're talking sense.

[Nightstrike]

Yes, and I say there is no wiggle room. We'll see when we get there.  :)

 

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

 

(The True Source is also outside the Wheel. It probably comes from the Creator.)

 

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

Mordeth & Fain merged (before) TGH. The year TGH was published was 1990. Shaidar Haran has been known to us since 1994. Both were present before 2001...

 

[Malruhn]

After reading six pages, I'd like to toss my two cents in here.

 

1. rubbernilly, you are being juvenile and pedantic with your arguments, and Nightstrike is playing along.  Why don't both of you just sit back and stop arguing whether the the teal paint is blueish-green or greenish-blue.  Fain is not part of the pattern right now.  Howzat for clarity?  Is there any adult reason to continue this bickering? FAIN NO IN PADDERN NOW, RIGHT?  I even used language that may be recognized... [/dripping sarcasm and disgust]

 

2. What I would like to know (which is impossible), are the motivations and goals of the DO in Ages past.  He has ALWAYS tried for domination - but has he ALWAYS pushed for domination AND to destroy the Wheel of Time and make things linear? They've never really answered that in the series - they just say that he attempted domination of the world and that the "Good Guys" fought against him.

 

3. If the base theology of the books is Gospel doctrine, then no matter what ANYONE does, the Wheel will spin forever.  The DO can plot and plan whatever he wishes, but he won't be successful.  The Dragon can plot and plan whatever he wishes, but the DO will NEVER be destroyed... because this Age will be repeated again and again.

 

4. Perhaps there is a Wheel within the Wheel (or vice versa), and Fain is working off a different play book.  According to RJ, S.Haran is new - so perhaps there are checks and balances in the BIGGER Wheel to counter that - enter Fain.  Has there ALWAYS been a Mordeth/Shadar Logoth?  If so, perhaps with the invention of Haran, the new and improved Fain NEEDED to be invented.  I recall the wording from Suain or Moraine that Fain ceased to be - so his thread COULD have been spun out to be reborn again in the next Age in his usual old manner.

 

5. One thing that has been made very clear in the series is that the END of the Age or the END of the story is always the same - and that while the details may be very similar, there is enough wiggle-room to allow for things like Rand to have been born a King, a begger, succeed wildly, been killed as a young boy and more (all visions when the portal stone went wonky).  It didn't matter - the Age passed and the Wheel still spun around to do it all again.  In this final battle (two books away), there will be an ending - and some pain-in-the-butt Aes Sedai will have a blast of visions and Foretellings - and brand new prophecies will be written for the NEXT "last" battle.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

6. I just had a horrid thought, and I pray that I'm wrong.  The DO is WAY active - Fain's been released from the Pattern - but we haven't heard from the Creator.  I hope RJ/Sanderson doesn't bring out a smiling, white-haired, old man that saves Rand's bacon at the climax of the last book. I'd be more pissed than I was with the Deus ex Machina in Lord of the Rings!! (please be wrong... please be wrong...)

[Nightstrike]

Fain is not part of the pattern right now.  Howzat for clarity?  Is there any adult reason to continue this bickering? FAIN NO IN PADDERN NOW, RIGHT?  I even used language that may be recognized... [/dripping sarcasm and disgust]

 

RJ told us that Fain is part of the Pattern. I don't think we needed to be told.

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

...

Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are a part of that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

Fain appeared 1994. That's new Fain. The crazier Fain.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

Old Fain was part of the Pattern. Shadar Logoth was part of the Pattern. Mordeth was part of the Pattern. New Fain is part of the Pattern. The Wheel weaves all the threads.

[Nightstrike]

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

If Fain hadn't been part of the Pattern, then RJ spoke... A bad thing to speak.

[rubbernilly]

1. rubbernilly, you are being juvenile and pedantic with your arguments, and Nightstrike is playing along.  Why don't both of you just sit back and stop arguing whether the the teal paint is blueish-green or greenish-blue.  Fain is not part of the pattern right now.  Howzat for clarity?  Is there any adult reason to continue this bickering? FAIN NO IN PADDERN NOW, RIGHT?  I even used language that may be recognized... [/dripping sarcasm and disgust]

 

You are right, of course. I spent so long on it because I thought that if I just stated it a different way, or confined my remarks to some small part of the larger picture, I could get Nightstrike to see. However, I came to the same realization as you, that 1) I was getting nowhere, and 2) I was getting nastier than I wanted to be, and decided to walk away from it.

 

Nightstrike, I apologize.

 

That said, Malruhn, good luck with your claim that Fain isn't in the Pattern. As you can see, Nightstrike disagrees.

 

2. What I would like to know (which is impossible), are the motivations and goals of the DO in Ages past.  He has ALWAYS tried for domination - but has he ALWAYS pushed for domination AND to destroy the Wheel of Time and make things linear? They've never really answered that in the series - they just say that he attempted domination of the world and that the "Good Guys" fought against him.

 

I think he has entire Ages that he throws away, like a sports team that is rebuilding. My feeling is that the DO spent several Ages building up to this one, to get the sort of Dragon he wanted, in the world he wanted (corrupted by Ishamael, with the Taint rendering half of the channelers mostly a non-factor, with strong distrust of women toward male channelers, and events set up to harden/break Rand. If I'm right, that would lead me to think that this Age will have something of a penultimate climax, as several AGES of DO planning comes to pass. The side to that is, when that much planning is on the line for the DO, he might be more likely to take chances that he wouldn't have in Ages past. We'll see.

 

[rubbernilly]

Quick status check:

20 people want the story to be just this incarnation

18 (total) people want this story to be the final access of the DO to the world (impotent or dead)

 

I leave aside the 4 Fain-replacing-the-DO votes because there is no telling where that should go:

On the one hand, it *is* a final story... it would be the end of the DO as we know him

On the other hand, if Fain replaces him, would we just have periodic Fain-access to the Pattern?

 

So, neither side gets those votes.

 

20-18 still borders on 50/50, and at times the final-storiers were actually more numerous than the incarnation-storiers.

 

What I would like to hear is an explanation from the few people who want to see the DO die and time become linear.

 

Personally, I've never seen the DO at all tied to the turning of the Wheel or the circularity of time... so I'd be interested to hear how people see the mechanic playing out. I think we've had one person post their thoughts on this already. I'd like to hear more.

[Majsju]

 

 

What I would like to hear is an explanation from the few people who want to see the DO die and time become linear.

 

Personally, I've never seen the DO at all tied to the turning of the Wheel or the circularity of time... so I'd be interested to hear how people see the mechanic playing out. I think we've had one person post their thoughts on this already. I'd like to hear more.

The way I see it, there are two possibilities.

 

1. The strongest theme in WOT is balance. Now, exactly what part the DO plays here is a bit uncertain, as his logical counterpart would be the Creator, and that fella seems to have left the world to go fishing in another dimension. It rather seems like the DOs counterpart is the Wheel, since the Wheel is "the one" responsible for acting against the DOs influence, by spinning out Heroes, making people ta'veren, making sure the Dragon is born and reborn whenever he is needed, etcetc.

By killing the DO, that balance would all of a sudden be completely removed, and that must have radial consequences. Like destroying the Wheel.

 

2. The Wheels main purpose is to keep the DO from doing anything more than occasionally poke the world. Kill the DO, and that purpose is gone.

The Wheel has been described as a computer. Imagine what happens when you suddenly erase a number of key programs from a computer, with noone around with the knowledge how to fix it. Sure, you might be able to play minesweeper for a few hours before the computer completely collapses, but the higher functions?

 

 

[rubbernilly]

Is that what you believe, Masjsu, or just what you see as possibilities?

 

The internal mechanics hold, and I don't see anything overtly contradictory to anything we know about the universe... they come down to the fundamental purpose of the Wheel.

 

I see the purpose of the Wheel differently, so I see the possibility that time would continue to be a circle. But, like I said, the possibilities you present are internally consistent.

[Mr Ares]

Why is it that whenever debate turns to dictionary definitions to prove a point I want to get a dictionary and batter the participants to death with it?

 

Anyway, the ending I'd like to see? All singing, all dancing, musical extravaganza!