What Sort of Ending Do You Want for the Series?

[rubbernilly]

Inspired by the thread on how this Turning of the Wheel will be different, over in the Gathering Storm forum. I was surprised how many people seemed like they would be satisfied with an ending that I would personally find awful.

 

I currently rank the series on top of the epic fantasy genre, a botched ending, however, could ruin that.

 

So what do you want to see? Remember, this isn't what you think we *will* see, but what you think would be the most satisfying.

[Norm]

The overarching "struggle" whatever yours may be is what makes humanity human. Without the constraints of time, what you do with your life wouldn't mean as much. Without having to overcome, achievements wouldn't be as sweet, etc. Therefore, some vestage of the DO must remain or it wouldn't make sense. Whether it's THE DO or Fain is turned into a new DO or whatever, there has to be some sort of "until the next time..." moment or its really gonna piss me off.

[HuntSeat_Hero]

One of the main themes in the series is that time is cyclical.  It wouldn't be the same without the Great Lord.

[TheBeerPatriot]

The overarching "struggle" whatever yours may be is what makes humanity human. Without the constraints of time, what you do with your life wouldn't mean as much. Without having to overcome, achievements wouldn't be as sweet, etc. Therefore, some vestage of the DO must remain or it wouldn't make sense. Whether it's THE DO or Fain is turned into a new DO or whatever, there has to be some sort of "until the next time..." moment or its really gonna piss me off.

The fact that Jordan has always hinted that some threads would be left open when the series ends indicates that there will be some vestige of the DO remaining.

 

As for the ending of the series...

"I have won again Lews Therin"  Mwa ha ha ha ha

[Nightstrike]

The ending RJ intended.

[rubbernilly]

Am I the only one that thinks that humanity itself has plenty of conflict, misunderstanding, and darkness without the DO? Removing the DO doesn't mean automatic, permanent utopia, IMO.

 

And Norm, you talk about "the constraints of time" making things meaningful and people engaged in their life. I don't know that that would change without the DO. I don't think that most people in the WoT universe think in terms of multiple Ages. They think in terms of their own finite life... and there would still be the end-cap to that.

 

Eh, I might be the only one to feel this way, but that's why it's a matter of opinion.

[Seryth]

Am I the only one that thinks that humanity itself has plenty of conflict, misunderstanding, and darkness without the DO? Removing the DO doesn't mean automatic, permanent utopia, IMO.

 

I agree completely. Also, I'm pretty sure Sanderson based his second Mistborn book on the premise that overthrowing evil is the "easy" part... how does society rebuild itself afterward amongst the chaos and conflict?

 

I also agree with Nightstrike, I want the RJ original ending  :)

[water_seeker]

Am I the only one that thinks that humanity itself has plenty of conflict, misunderstanding, and darkness without the DO? Removing the DO doesn't mean automatic, permanent utopia, IMO.

 

And Norm, you talk about "the constraints of time" making things meaningful and people engaged in their life. I don't know that that would change without the DO. I don't think that most people in the WoT universe think in terms of multiple Ages. They think in terms of their own finite life... and there would still be the end-cap to that.

 

Eh, I might be the only one to feel this way, but that's why it's a matter of opinion.

 

You're not alone in that feeling.

 

All the DO did to society was highten a persons natural desire to do evil.  Their capacity to do evil was already there.  There doesn't need to be a DO in the future for there to be conflict in the future.  Maybe the next time this turning comes, the "Dragon Reborn" has to fight a "Demandred" or something like that.  There would still be room for breakings, the loss of knowledge, the Wheel could go on and on.

[OptimusPrime]

All the DO did to society was highten a persons natural desire to do evil.  Their capacity to do evil was already there.  There doesn't need to be a DO in the future for there to be conflict in the future.  Maybe the next time this turning comes, the "Dragon Reborn" has to fight a "Demandred" or something like that.

 

Or a Fain???

 

I really like the idea of Rand killing the Dark One. Id like it if Rands victory was that he made the cycle of time a new cycle. As in, the events of the new turning will no longer reflect the turnings pre-Rand, but would start a new course of the Wheel that would be the dictator for future turnings.

[rubbernilly]

So, if you don't get the ending that would be most satisfying to you, how disappointing will that be?

 

For me, some endings would be worse than others... the DO winning would be just stupid, but an ending that saw him banished only for an Age or two... well, that would take the series from being one that is shaping up as the best ever into being one that would rank well down on that list.

[water_seeker]

So, if you don't get the ending that would be most satisfying to you, how disappointing will that be?

 

For me, some endings would be worse than others... the DO winning would be just stupid, but an ending that saw him banished only for an Age or two... well, that would take the series from being one that is shaping up as the best ever into being one that would rank well down on that list.

 

Actually, most of the time when what I want/expect to see something and it doesn't happen, what really happens is usually better.  I think this case might be different.  If, as most people seem to want (so far anyway), the DO is just sealed away for a time, I'll really be upset.  If anything else happens, I think I'll be ok.

[MikeRiley]

Neither Rand or Fain can kill the Dark One. Both of them are of the pattern whereas the Dark One is not. Besides, if the Dark One was utterly defeated the Wheel could no longer be a wheel. Time would stop being cyclical because an entire age will never come about again. This is happening in the past as well as the future. That's the key point there, it has to happen again.

 

I said this somewhere else, but I believe this entire series is about the maturing of the main characters. This is about them, not the war itself. How they deal with each situation they're put in, how they keep going on when it would be easier to just quit. "Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain."

 

The ending wouldn't be ruined by not being Final. The Dark One will return. Rand, at least, understands this. He's fighting the war for the people of the world. Those people, not the people of the future. We would just see another group of people, far into the future and in the distant past, who will take up the struggle where he left off and show the world what they're made of, deep down. I believe the point of the series is to say even when it seems like the world is against you and you can't get ahead, stand up and start moving anyway and you'll get there eventually, and if you don't, at least you met it on your feet. Lan even says something along those lines to Rand way back in book 2, before the Amyrlin's summons.

[rubbernilly]

I know we've had this debate elsewhere, so I just want to put the info here beside yours just so the opposite opinion is stated.

 

Neither Rand or Fain can kill the Dark One. Both of them are of the pattern whereas the Dark One is not. Besides, if the Dark One was utterly defeated the Wheel could no longer be a wheel. Time would stop being cyclical because an entire age will never come about again. This is happening in the past as well as the future. That's the key point there, it has to happen again.

 

The DO isn't a part of the Pattern, so you can make argument that the Pattern was never weaving in his access to it. At most, the Pattern was weaving in people who were curious about finding an alternate, channel-able power (Mierin and Beidomon). If the DO isn't there to fuel that curiosity (his TP isn't detectable), then maybe they don't ever drill the Bore. Or, if they do drill it, nothing happens because he isn't there to pour through. Left alone, the Bore heals, or they close it up again when they find nothing.

 

Time could still be cyclical. If the DO isn't a part of the Pattern, you could also make the argument that his involvement in the end of any particular Age was abnormal from the normal weaving of the Pattern. If the Pattern is free of his involvement, it is free to end the Ages as it would have intended all along.

 

This doesn't mean that the DO would have to be "killed"... just not there to answer the call, provide temptation, or allow access to the TP. I'm not one to go in for the DO getting killed... but I did write this up in a different thread, so I'll just include it here as it seems one way that it *could* happen...

 

I, for one, don't go for the general idea that Rand will kill the DO, since the DO is essentially a god, but Shaidar Haran makes things interesting. Certainly Rand, mortal and bound in the Pattern, couldn't kill the DO, but if the DO elected to limit his own powers... by, say, too strongly inhabiting his avatar of Shaidar Haran... then I could see a situation where Rand could kill the DO. If the DO saw an opportunity to finally realize his plan, but he had to risk limited power, mortality, and final death by inhabiting Shaidar Haran to do it... that could be a way to kill the DO.

 

Kill Shaidar Haran, kill the DO.

 

Or it could give Fain something physical to tackle through the Bore, out into the void... or into a vacuole... meaning that the DO would be forever bound to the Shaidar Haran construct, until he could get that construct back into the Pattern somehow (which, of course, he could not do, limited in his power as he would be, in the Shaidar Haran avatar). It is a tidy way of getting around most of the larger arguments against this sort of "final" ending for the constant returning of the DO.

 

Several scenarios there for the heroes to end the cycle of the DO's influence.

[Nightstrike]

This is the info we've been given:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

 

(The True Source is also outside the Wheel.)

(Fain is part of the Pattern, so he can't change the destiny of the Great Pattern.)

[rubbernilly]

This is the info we've been given:

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

 

(The True Source is also outside the Wheel.)

(Fain is part of the Pattern, so he can't change the destiny of the Great Pattern.)

 

You cut and paste that list as if it means something. You obviously didn't read my post. Any inferable point your list could possibly suggest (heaven forbid you should structure an argument) is answered in the scenario I laid out.

[rubbernilly]

Interesting results so far.

 

14 people want this to be just one incarnation of a never-ending story.

 

That seems like a lot compared with the 6 that want the DO to be unable to touch the Pattern anymore... except when you look at the larger picture: if you include the people who want the DO to die, there are 12 people who, in some way or another, want an ending where the DO can't touch the Pattern anymore.

 

14 to 12 is nearing 50-50. This would be tough to know, I'd think, were I in RJ/BS' shoes. You are going to give half the audience an ending that, right now, they think would be less than satisfactory.

 

I'm interested to see how many more people respond, and how the numbers start to shape up.

[RUSH]

That list would reduce the ending from potentially epic to "we already know everything except how Rand re-seals the bore," which I would find to be pretty anti-climactic unless it's handled REALLY well.

 

Did the notoriously secretive Robert Jordan really tip his entire hand about the ending?  Or were his answers to certain questions vague, or perhaps even intentionally misleading?

 

I wouldn't put it past RJ to use the ending as an opportunity to break the rules we "know" and completely surprise us.  After all, if the DO gets free, all bets are off, and who knows what sort of damage to the wheel and the pattern he'll do before Rand manages to defeat/reseal him.

 

My preferred ending would be the DO is temporarily free and causes some metaphysical damage to the world, but Rand forces him back into the prison and closes it tight.  The wheel continues to turn, but something is different this time.  Think of a wheel on a fixed axis, spinning in place, versus that same wheel, still spinning, but released from its anchor, is now rolling forward on the ground.  Thus the world continues, the DO is still imprisoned, but time moves forward, a normal afterlife takes over instead of reincarnation, the heroes are released from the horn, and Rand is the last Dragon.  That would be epic.

 

The cyclical nature of time is a huge theme of the series, so it would be awesome (in my mind) if he turned that on its head at the end.

 

However, all that being said, statements he's made regarding them being the source of our legends and us being the source of theirs make a strong case for nothing changing.

[Nightstrike]

You cut and paste that list as if it means something. You obviously didn't read my post. Any inferable point your list could possibly suggest (heaven forbid you should structure an argument) is answered in the scenario I laid out.

It means something since we know them to be true. I've given the quotes.

 

[rubbernilly]

You cut and paste that list as if it means something. You obviously didn't read my post. Any inferable point your list could possibly suggest (heaven forbid you should structure an argument) is answered in the scenario I laid out.

It means something since we know them to be true. I've given the quotes.

 

1. Mat is the son of Abell and Nati Cauthon

2. Rand is the son of Tigraine and Janduin

3. Egeanin has piercing/sharp blue eyes

4. Turak was a blademaster before Rand killed him

5. 2 + 2 = 4, in anything greater than base-4

 

We know that list is true, too. Does that help?

 

Or perhaps you can structure more than a 1 line declaration, something approaching an argument, which shows how the example that I provided is invalidated by anything on your list.

 

Let me show you...

 

1. Present Tense often identifies habitual or customary action: He side-steps the Pattern (understanding that he does so all the time).

2. Present Progressive describes the simple engagement in a present activity, with the focus on action in progress "at this very moment": He is side-stepping the Pattern (as we speak).

3. Present Perfect indicates that a past event has one of a range of possible relationships to the present. This may be a focus on present result: He has side-stepped the Pattern (and look, here he is, still side-stepped). Alternatively, it may indicate a period which includes the present. He has side-stepped the Pattern since his youth (and still does). In fact, the English perfect is often used precisely in situations where Latin would use the imperfect - for past actions which are not finished but continue into the present.

 

(examples adapted from Wikipedia)

 

So, when RJ uses present-perfect tense to describe Fain having side-stepped the Pattern, the meaning is that Fain is still in that condition. Though he is in the Pattern, he is still out of the way of its intentions regarding him. He is, you could say, a livewire. The implication of this is that Fain is more in control of his actions than anyone else in the world.

[rubbernilly]

My preferred ending would be the DO is temporarily free and causes some metaphysical damage to the world, but Rand forces him back into the prison and closes it tight.  The wheel continues to turn, but something is different this time.  Think of a wheel on a fixed axis, spinning in place, versus that same wheel, still spinning, but released from its anchor, is now rolling forward on the ground.  Thus the world continues, the DO is still imprisoned, but time moves forward, a normal afterlife takes over instead of reincarnation, the heroes are released from the horn, and Rand is the last Dragon.  That would be epic.

 

That is one of the best ways I've heard this option described, Rush. Awesome analogy!

[Nightstrike]

From wiktionary:

steppedDefinition from Wiktionary, a free dictionary

Jump to: navigation, search

[edit] English[edit] Pronunciation Audio (US)help, file

[edit] Verb stepped

 

1.Simple past tense and past participle of step.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

Q:  Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ:  He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

[Nightstrike]

Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q:  At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about this Age that makes it special?

RJ:  No . . . every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

Mordeth & Fain merged (before) TGH. The year TGH was published was 1990. Before 2001...

 

 

1. Only things outside the Wheel & the Pattern is the Creator & the Dark One.

2. Creatures have free will.

3. The Wheel spins out the proper corrections to try and maintain balance.

4. The Dark One can actually win.

5. Noone inside the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

6. There's nothing that makes this turning any different than other turnings.

7. There are always lots of things that are different in each turning.

8. The general Pattern of the Ages form a tapestry that (generally speaking) is very similar each turning.

9. There is an ordinary afterlife, apart from the Heroes in t'a'r.

10. The Bore will be drilled again when (or "if", for future turnings) the third/whatever Age comes again.

 

 

 

 

[rubbernilly]

From wiktionary:

steppedDefinition from Wiktionary, a free dictionary

Jump to: navigation, search

[edit] English[edit] Pronunciation Audio (US)help, file

[edit] Verb stepped

 

1.Simple past tense and past participle of step.

 

Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

Q:  Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?

RJ:  He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

 

 

I know it has probably been a long time since you had to diagram a sentence (since any of us had to), but you're walking around in your grammatical underoos right now.

 

Yes, 'stepped' is the past-participle form of the verb 'to step,' but that alone does not indicate the verb tense. The present-perfect tense utilizes that past participle in a completely different way, with completely different meaning.

 

Look at my first sentence of this post:

I know it has probably been a long time...

 

By your logic, the verb there is 'been.' But that doesn't even make sense. You have to look at the entire verb clause; then you see that the verb is 'has been'.

 

In that RJ quote, the entire verb clause is:

has unwittingly side-stepped

 

You can drop 'unwittingly' as that is just an adverb, and you are left with the verb:

has side-stepped

 

Present Perfect. Present Perfect indicates an action begun in the past but still not completed in the present.

 

By RJ's usage of the Present Perfect, we know Fain is still in the state of "side-step" from the Pattern.

[Nightstrike]

It's something he has done.

 

Like, for instance, yesterday I personally stepped over a puddle. ;) "You might say that I have stepped over a puddle."

 

This incident does not necessarily mean that I must step over a puddle tomorrow. I hope to live long enough to step over a puddle sometime again.

 

Does that make it any clearer? :D

 

 

(Side-stepping puddles could end badly for the old and crippled.  :D )

[rubbernilly]

It's something he has done.

 

Like, for instance, yesterday I personally stepped over a puddle. ;) "You might say that I have stepped over a puddle."

 

This incident does not necessarily mean that I must step over a puddle tomorrow. I hope to live long enough to step over a puddle sometime again.

 

No, but you *have* stepped over one. Use of the present perfect shows implications. For instance, the longer version of what I quoted from Wikipedia is actually:

 

This indicates that a past event has one of a range of possible relationships to the present. This may be a focus on present result: He has written a very fine book (and look, here it is, we have it now). Alternatively, it may indicate a period which includes the present. I have lived here since my youth (and I still do). Compare: Have you written a letter this morning? (it is still morning) with Did you write a letter this morning? (it is now afternoon). The perfect tenses are frequently used with the adverbs already or recently or with since clauses. The present perfect can identify habitual (I have written letters since I was ten years old.) or continuous (I have lived here for fifteen years.) action.

 

So either he is still side-stepping (not likely), or he is in a case where he is still under the implications of what it means to have side-stepped (more likely). In the case of your example, context would have to tell us what the implications were to you having jumped over the puddle yesterday. (Are you using a metaphor to denigrate someone/thing else, comparing them to a puddle? Are you actually stepping over a chasm, but because of mental imagery you are using to convince yourself, you are letting us know that, to you, all you did was step over a puddle?)

 

In the case of Fain, the context of RJ's quote is to explain how Fain is unique. But from the tense, Fain is still under the implications of having side-stepped the Pattern.

 

* * *

 

Now, about that list... reposting it is like repeatedly describing someone to me as, 'different.' That person is just... different. If you don't ever explain with a word other than 'different,' I'm going to have no idea what you mean. So, without resorting to just posting your list, how does anything I wrote up as a possible way for Fain to be involved (and the DO to be 'killed'--even though I don't think that is likely) violate your list?

 

If you read what I wrote, there were plenty of caveats about how the DO limits himself and takes on a physical form in the Pattern, a physical form that Fain can interact with. Here, let me quote it again:

 

I, for one, don't go for the general idea that Rand will kill the DO, since the DO is essentially a god, but Shaidar Haran makes things interesting. Certainly Rand, mortal and bound in the Pattern, couldn't kill the DO, but if the DO elected to limit his own powers... by, say, too strongly inhabiting his avatar of Shaidar Haran... then I could see a situation where Rand could kill the DO. If the DO saw an opportunity to finally realize his plan, but he had to risk limited power, mortality, and final death by inhabiting Shaidar Haran to do it... that could be a way to kill the DO.

 

Kill Shaidar Haran, kill the DO.

 

Or it could give Fain something physical to tackle through the Bore, out into the void... or into a vacuole... meaning that the DO would be forever bound to the Shaidar Haran construct, until he could get that construct back into the Pattern somehow (which, of course, he could not do, limited in his power as he would be, in the Shaidar Haran avatar). It is a tidy way of getting around most of the larger arguments against this sort of "final" ending for the constant returning of the DO.

 

Several scenarios there for the heroes to end the cycle of the DO's influence.

 

FULL DISCLOSURE: I am not arguing *for* this to be the case, only that this possibility does not violate what we know of the universe. If it does so violate what we know, please be kind enough to point it out to me, using a word other than 'different.' ;)