A Clue from LTT about the Last Battle?

[rubbernilly]

I was rereading part of TGS yesterday, and I came across this:

 

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

 

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

 

I'm sure that this will and should be analyzed in many quarters to see if LTT gave something away to the reader, here... some sort of clue.

 

Here is an interesting intersection that occurs to me... with all the focus given in Rand's development to know what strength truly is, doesn't that last line really stand out? Rand has focused on being harder and harder, thinking that *that* was strength. At the end of the book, he has his epiphany and we maybe have a return of light Luke Skywalker Rand.

 

So maybe Rand's learning about strength is the difference. Maybe instead of some power, he will be the thing to touch the DO. Not fighting, just holding him back while others "heal" the Bore.

 

Personal Scripting of the Final Confrontation:

If this is the way things go, I could see him crumbling from the prolonged contact. On the verge of death, Fain happens upon the chamber (at Shayol Ghul). Intent on being the one to kill Rand, Fain launches himself at/into the Bore to drive the DO away. Instead, what he manages to do is take the last of the DO-corruption from going into Rand. He maybe even gets trapped on the DO side of the closing Bore. Rand, meanwhile, collapses. Maybe even dies. And then Nynaeve pulls out some crazy-deep healing to bring him back.

 

(Yeah, yeah, I know...Alivia didn't "help" Rand die there. There are plenty of places in that narrative where she could be inserted... or her role in helping Rand die could be one of helping Rand fake his death to the world.)

[Shadow Rider]

I was thinking that it was more to do with the wounds in is side...they are different evils that repel each other...he might use it to touch the Dark One some how....

[Agitel]

Perhaps Rand will wield Callandor when he seals the Bore (I assume that's what it was designed for, as a buffer to protect the man wielding it from contact with the Dark One, requiring two women to complete that buffer). If we assume he's wielding it if he uses it to touch the Dark One, and if Alivia is one of the two women with him (or maybe, there are two, but one is killed, leaving only her and Rand, and it's no longer enough), you may be onto something. Fain will likely be important at the end, I hope he is, he's been an antagonist since the first book.

 

Perhaps Fain will be there to take the Ring from Rand and will then fall into the Pit of Doom, thus destroying the Ring and Sauron's... I mean, the Dark One's, power.

 

Er... wrong story. Something like that, though.

[OptimusPrime]

I think its brilliant just how many threads get made for this.

 

Fain touches the Dark One with his power-the possibility was shown to us in TGH when Rand gets caught in Fains trap which was made of "cobwebs of steel" aka weaves. Fain touches his weaves to the Dark One, Rand seals them both in a Void in the Pattern with Callandor.

[Nightstrike]

The DO isn't inside the Wheel or of the Pattern. He is outside. He wants to destroy the Wheel.

 

Edit: Read BWB, The Wheel and the Pattern.

 

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

[OptimusPrime]

The DO isn't inside the Wheel or of the Pattern. He is outside. He wants to destroy the Wheel.

 

And? The Dark One can obvously be channeled from inside the Pattern and presumeably it is the seals that keep him out. It is widely suspected that Rand will break the seals himself to instigate his encounter with the Dark One. What better way to stop the Dark One from destroying the Pattern by trapping him in it, in a place that even the Wheel itself cant access?

 

Edit: Read BWB, The Wheel and the Pattern.

 

Quote the bits you're thinking of.

[Nightstrike]

What better way to stop the Dark One from destroying the Pattern by trapping him in it, in a place that even the Wheel itself cant access?

Trapping him in it? Why not try and trap the Creator as well...

 

Edit: Read BWB, The Wheel and the Pattern.

 

Quote the bits you're thinking of.

It's not a huge chunk of text to read the entire chapter. Just a few pages. I've quoted the same thing before.

[OptimusPrime]

What better way to stop the Dark One from destroying the Pattern by trapping him in it, in a place that even the Wheel itself cant access?

Trapping him in it? Why not try and trap the Creator as well...

 

Because Rand isnt fighting the Creator you moron.

 

Edit: Read BWB, The Wheel and the Pattern.

 

Quote the bits you're thinking of.

It's not a huge chunk of text to read the entire chapter. Just a few pages. I've quoted the same thing before.

 

Well, I cant look for it if I dont know what it is... if its that important, quote it again.

[Nightstrike]

Because Rand isnt fighting the Creator you moron.

Yeah, so what? How would "trapping" anything inside the Pattern even be a solution? If it had been possible, which is... unlikely.

 

Well, I cant look for it if I dont know what it is... if its that important, quote it again.

I edited the post. I have given you the same quote before. The chapter is 3 pages.

[MikeRiley]

I think its brilliant just how many threads get made for this.

 

Fain touches the Dark One with his power-the possibility was shown to us in TGH when Rand gets caught in Fains trap which was made of "cobwebs of steel" aka weaves. Fain touches his weaves to the Dark One, Rand seals them both in a Void in the Pattern with Callandor.

 

 

We actually see this about the cobwebs of steel as early as The Great Hunt when Rand enters the house in the abandoned village (with all the flies). When he breaks through the trap he cuts through something like this too. I've been thrown off for a long time thinking it was a male channeler's doing because of the threads.

 

 

If Rand was to screw up and seal both the Dark One and the Creator from the pattern, I can see the world losing the ability to channel both the One and True Powers.

[OptimusPrime]

We actually see this about the cobwebs of steel as early as The Great Hunt when Rand enters the house in the abandoned village (with all the flies). When he breaks through the trap he cuts through something like this too. I've been thrown off for a long time thinking it was a male channeler's doing because of the threads

 

Thats the same bit I was talking about.

 

Yeah, so what? How would "trapping" anything inside the Pattern even be a solution? If it had been possible, which is... unlikely

 

Everything is unlikely to you unless you came up with it. Use your brain. If the Dark One was in a Void in the Pattern and the Wheel itself cant get to it, that would mean events would never allow for the Dark One to escape unless the Dragon freed him. Nobody else apart from the Dragon, Creator and Dark One can alter the Pattern as far as we know. So, again, a Dark Dragon is needed to get the Dark One out.

 

Nightstrike, you've been here a while I take it, yet your strategy for discussion is CRAP.

[Nightstrike]

Everything is unlikely to you unless you came up with it.

It's as likely as Rand trapping the Creator inside the Pattern.

 

Use your brain. If the Dark One was in a Void in the Pattern and the Wheel itself cant get to it, that would mean events would never allow for the Dark One to escape unless the Dragon freed him.

Why? Does the Creator or the DO, either one, fit into the Creator's creation? If the DO was inside the Wheel, what would stop him from influencing it? Nothing. He is the Dark Counterpart to the Creator.

 

Nobody else apart from the Dragon, Creator and Dark One can alter the Pattern as far as we know. So, again, a Dark Dragon is needed to get the Dark One out.

You haven't read my quote. Read it.

 

Nightstrike, you've been here a while I take it, yet your strategy for discussion is CRAP.

Read the chapter I mentioned. It's 3 pages.

[Nightstrike]

Here it comes again.

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

[Crael123]

Nightstrike and Drekka Mort.  calm yourselves.

[Nightstrike]

I'm perfectly calm. :)

[OptimusPrime]

Here it comes again.

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

EXACTLY. Nobody of or inside the Pattern can influence it. The Dark One can because he isnt OF the Pattern. But if he was trapped in it, he wouldnt be able to influence it. Tadaaaah. Bringing the Creator into this means nothing, not unless we consider that Rand might cut both entities off, which I doubt myself.

 

Nice one for actually providing the quote! I like how you exaggerated saying it was three pages long though.

 

Why? Does the Creator or the DO, either one, fit into the Creator's creation?

 

We are talking about forces that can be channeled here, not physical beings.

 

If the DO was inside the Wheel, what would stop him from influencing it? NOTHING

 

Except your very own quote says nothing inside the Pattern can influence it. The Pattern, not the Wheel itself. Thanks for helping me prove that bit.

 

It's as likely as Rand trapping the Creator inside the Pattern

 

Yeah the only thing that stops it is the fact that Rand is fighting the Dark One and not the Creator. Which means the Creator being imprisoned is less likely. Indeed, that idea has no influence on this matter.

 

Read the chapter I mentioned. It's 3 pages

 

YOU: Read this chapter

ME: I dont have the book

YOU: Read the chapter

 

Do you see what went wrong there?

 

Stupid quoting system

[Nightstrike]

I quoted that thing before. You missed it.

 

I never said that my quote was 3 pages. I said the chapter is 3 pages. It's worthwile reading the entire chapter, since it's about things that concerns this thread.

 

EXACTLY. Nobody of or inside the Pattern can influence it. The Dark One can because he isnt OF the Pattern. But if he was trapped in it, he wouldnt be able to influence it. Tadaaaah. Bringing the Creator into this means nothing, not unless we consider that Rand might cut both entities off, which I doubt myself.

You said the Dragon could change the course of the Wheel. He can't. The DO can't be trapped inside the Wheel. Which is a good thing. They better try and keep him out of the Wheel. Once he gets the tiniest bit of influence, then he will crush the Wheel.

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

No, I said the Dragon can alter the Pattern. He can, TGS proves it. I said nothing about the course of the Wheel.

 

That quote furthers my point not yours, not yours. Nice try at twisting my words

[Nightstrike]

Use your brain. If the Dark One was in a Void in the Pattern and the Wheel itself cant get to it, that would mean events would never allow for the Dark One to escape unless the Dragon freed him. Nobody else apart from the Dragon, Creator and Dark One can alter the Pattern as far as we know. So, again, a Dark Dragon is needed to get the Dark One out.

BWB says:

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

[Nightstrike]

That quote furthers my point not yours, not yours. Nice try at twisting my words

???

[OptimusPrime]

Use your brain. If the Dark One was in a Void in the Pattern and the Wheel itself cant get to it, that would mean events would never allow for the Dark One to escape unless the Dragon freed him. Nobody else apart from the Dragon, Creator and Dark One can alter the Pattern as far as we know. So, again, a Dark Dragon is needed to get the Dark One out.

BWB says:

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

 

I ALREADY REPLIED TO THIS.

 

EXACTLY. Nobody of or inside the Pattern can influence it. The Dark One can because he isnt OF the Pattern. But if he was trapped in it, he wouldnt be able to influence it. Tadaaaah. Bringing the Creator into this means nothing, not unless we consider that Rand might cut both entities off, which I doubt myself

 

Here, next time you ignore the reply you can make the letters bigger if you want, or even change it all to caps, but that will not change the fact that your quote goes against what you are saying.

[Nightstrike]

I know you did. :)  I just thought you needed a reminder.

 

 

EXACTLY. Nobody of or inside the Pattern can influence it. The Dark One can because he isnt OF the Pattern. But if he was trapped in it, he wouldnt be able to influence it. Tadaaaah. Bringing the Creator into this means nothing, not unless we consider that Rand might cut both entities off, which I doubt myself

Here, next time you ignore the reply you can make the letters bigger if you want, or even change it all to caps, but that will not change the fact that your quote goes against what you are saying.

I replied to that. I didn't need any reminder. ;)

 

(I wonder what goes against anything I've been saying?)

 

 

[Calderis]

No, I said the Dragon can alter the Pattern. He can, TGS proves it. I said nothing about the course of the Wheel.

 

That quote furthers my point not yours, not yours. Nice try at twisting my words

 

No, it just showed how the pattern is weaved around a Tav'eren. Remember that Tav'eren are also hold more strictly by the pattern. Nothing rand is doing is outside of what the pattern allows him. Saying that rand can bend the pattern in a way it does not allow and "change" the weaving goes against everything we know of Tav'eren as a corrective mechanism of the wheel.

 

Creating a "void" in the pattern would be doing the DO's work for him and give him an access point into the world like he wants. the whole point of this is to seal the bore in a way that it's not a patch, but is no longer a weak point in the pattern.

 

No one alter's the pattern. Tav'eren just pull the threads around them in the direction the wheel wishes. if Rand could truly alter the pattern, Tuon would have sworn to him, and the WT would never have been attacked, and we'd have a war between the Rebel's and Elaida's Aes Sedai.

 

Everything is going on the course the pattern wants. Even when Rand believe's he's altering the pattern, he's just following the path.

[Nightstrike]

 

Yeah, if the Dragon freed the DO, then it will be end of game. No more Wheel.

 

 

Brandon from Mission Viejo: Mr. Jordan, it's fairly common knowledge that the Dark One was bound by the Creator outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation. Would it then be safe to assume, after concepts brought to light in the new release, that the world before the opening of the prison never knew true evil? If so, then was each Age before the opening of the Age of Legends different facets of some utopia? As well, without major conflict between good and evil, what caused ages to pass? Thanks.

RJ: Given that time is cyclic, you must assume that there is a time when the prison that holds the Dark One is whole and unbroken. There is a time when a hole is drilled into that prison and it is thus open to that degree. And there is a time when the opening has been patched in a makeshift manner. But following this line, the cyclic nature of time means that we have at some time in the future inevitably a whole and unbroken prison again. Unless, of course, the Dark One breaks free, in which case all bets are off—kick over the table and run for the window.

[Agitel]

The DO isn't inside the Wheel or of the Pattern. He is outside. He wants to destroy the Wheel.

 

Edit: Read BWB, The Wheel and the Pattern.

 

The only known forces outside the Wheel and the Pattern are the Creator, who shaped the Wheel, the One Power that drives it - as well as the plan for the Great Pattern - and the Dark One, who was imprisoned outside the pattern by the Creator at the moment of creation. No one inside and of the Pattern can destroy the Wheel or change the destiny of the Great Pattern.

 

While I disagree with the assertion that it would be a good thing to trap the DO in the pattern, I just want to clarify how tightly this quote is being used. The wheel guides, some more strongly than others, but it doesn't dictate everything. The Dark One should be able to exert external guidance on threads of the Pattern. For example, I feel that the Dark One was trying to manipulate Rand into destroying the Pattern by the end of tGS. I do think this was a possible outcome. This wouldn't have come about without the Dark One, but technically, Rand could have destroyed it.