Lews Therin's descendants (thoeries)

[Durinax]

all his close relatives where definately dead, I believe that those corpses he was walking over where almost all of his blood.

 

and at that point LTT wasnt hindering him, he was just wandering his palace with the corpses scattered around, well into the madness

[Amadine]

I don't believe Rand is a descendant of Lews Therin. Rand is Lews Therin reincarnated. They share the same soul - it's that soul that Lanfear wants, and she will do anything to get what she wants, IMHO.

[Suttree]

Also it's doubtful that Ishmael lied when he told Lews Therin that he had killed his entire bloodline.  There would be no reason to lie, and he felt that he was going to kill Lews Therin anyway, before he turned into a mountain.

Actually there could be a reason for Ishamael to lie: cause Lews Therin to commit suicide, afterward Ishamael could do whatever without having Lews Therin hindering him.

Or if Ishamael was not lying, there is a chance that he was mistaken and assumed 'every' was dead.

 

"Kinslayer" show the opposite to mostly likely be true

Like I told before, someone can have the title 'kinslayer' from killing less than all relatives.

 

Like I told in opening post, there have been situations where someone survived a mass killing.  I gave the examples in the opening post.

If someone could survive those situations, there is a chance that someone survived this situation.

 

 

Again with "what if" or "there is a chance" we can say that about virtually anything in the series. I'm willing to entertain the idea just back it up with pieces of information from the series that lead you to believe its is the case...

[mb]

I don't believe Rand is a descendant of Lews Therin. Rand is Lews Therin reincarnated. They share the same soul - it's that soul that Lanfear wants, and she will do anything to get what she wants, IMHO.

Nothing prevents a reborn from also being a descendant.

 

I'm willing to entertain the idea just back it up with pieces of information from the series that lead you to believe its is the case...

Actually, I just think that it may be likely; not that it is so.

Last set of comments in opening post seem to be indicators that it might be likely.

 

[Agitel]

There's no evidence that this is the case. We're twelve books into a fourteen book series. If Rand is a descendant of LTT it wouldn't change anything plot-wise. It just seems to late to include this new thing that hasn't even been hinted at. Sure, we could all talk about how the sun will burn out tomorrow. I mean, yes, it is a possibility. But is that really a productive road to go down if you don't have any evidence?

 

Throughout the whole series we've been led to believe that LTT killed all of his blood-kin. If it was going to be an element, it seems as if some hints to the contrary would have been provided.

[mb]

Survivors of other multiple death situations I would consider a hint.

The 'half-truths' told by Ishamael about other things I would consider another hint.

The Green Man's greeting to Rand I consider a hint also.

 

I admit that nothing proves it; yet there has not been any disproof either.

 

[ravenfier]

Though one must wonder why Lanfear is so antsy to get back with LTT/Rand, maybe while they were together she bore him a child or two? but if that would have happened then they would be all dark and twisty for having a mother like here, hum that could be taims line, lol.

[Agitel]

Survivors of other multiple death situations I would consider a hint.

The 'half-truths' told by Ishamael about other things I would consider another hint.

The Green Man's greeting to Rand I consider a hint also.

 

I admit that nothing proves it; yet there has not been any disproof either.

 

 

Because some people manage to survive during mass slaughter is a hint? Because Ishamael lies at times is a hint?

 

As for the Green Man addressing Rand as "Child of the Dragon", that was what the Aiel came to be called before the Breaking. This later changed into "People of the Dragon". But essentially, the Green Man just thought Rand was an Aiel.

[Majsju]

Though one must wonder why Lanfear is so antsy to get back with LTT/Rand, maybe while they were together she bore him a child or two? but if that would have happened then they would be all dark and twisty for having a mother like here, hum that could be taims line, lol.

 

Rand, just like LTT once, represent power, which is pretty much the only thing Lanfear loves.

In her mind, if she could turn Rand to the shadow, she would be pretty much guaranteed the title of Naeäblis. The only other option would be Rand himself, and that would in a creepy way make her Mrs nae'blis.

[bronnt]

Survivors of other multiple death situations I would consider a hint.

The 'half-truths' told by Ishamael about other things I would consider another hint.

The Green Man's greeting to Rand I consider a hint also.

 

I admit that nothing proves it; yet there has not been any disproof either.

 

 

Because some people manage to survive during mass slaughter is a hint? Because Ishamael lies at times is a hint?

 

As for the Green Man addressing Rand as "Child of the Dragon", that was what the Aiel came to be called before the Breaking. This later changed into "People of the Dragon". But essentially, the Green Man just thought Rand was an Aiel.

 

If you're going to use the Green Man's comments as evidence...wouldn't you have to explain how he could possibly know if Rand is a descendent of the Dragon?  Just throwing it out there like the Green Man is the all-knowing guru seems a stretch given the known mechanics of the series.

 

And given the full context of that quote, it's pretty clear he's referring to the fact that Rand is Aiel.

 

"Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon.  Has the Wheel turned so far?  Have the People of the Dragon returned to the First Covenant?  But you wear a sword.  That is neither now nor then."

 

He uses "Child" of the Dragon because it's singular and non-gender specific.  Much less unwieldy than "Person of the Dragon."  He mentions the People of the Dragon one sentence later, so it's clear he means the same thing.  And he talks about Rand's wearing a sword, which also fits what we know about Aiel.

[mb]

and at that point LTT wasnt hindering him, he was just wandering his palace with the corpses scattered around, well into the madness

But Lews Therin could have hindered him in the future.

 

Because some people manage to survive during mass slaughter is a hint?

A hint that someone might have survived this.

 

Because Ishamael lies at times is a hint?

A hint that he may be lying here also.

 

As for the Green Man addressing Rand as "Child of the Dragon", that was what the Aiel came to be called before the Breaking. This later changed into "People of the Dragon". But essentially, the Green Man just thought Rand was an Aiel.

Third Age Aiel might also be descendants of Lews Therin.

 

Just throwing it out there like the Green Man is the all-knowing guru seems a stretch given the known mechanics of the series.

The Green Man may not know all, but he seems to know much.

 

[Durinax]

I wouldnt take the green mans word for anything, he had amnesia and who knows if he was mistaken

[mb]

I wouldnt take the green mans word for anything, he had amnesia and who knows if he was mistaken

Each of his greetings seem accurate, also each piece of info he told; so he did not seem mistaken.

People with amnesia can give accurate information.

 

[bronnt]

Just throwing it out there like the Green Man is the all-knowing guru seems a stretch given the known mechanics of the series.

The Green Man may not know all, but he seems to know much.

 

 

Nothing that can't be explained away.  He recognizes Perrin's eyes, and what they mean, which isn't a huge stretch for an ancient being.  He pegs Rand for Aiel, which is what the context of that quote actually conveys.  He recognizes Moiraine, since he's seen her before.  And he recognizes Loial as an Ogier.

 

Nothing else in that convinces he can recognize at a glance the genealogy of person over the past 3,000 years.

 

And you're still completely ignoring the context of the quote, which points to the fact that Rand is Aiel.  He would recognize Aiel of the current era because they sometimes venture into the Blight, and he would eventually have encountered some of them, and that's exactly why he's confused about Rand's clothes and his sword.

 

Why would he confused about what Lews Therin's descendant is wearing, or why he's carrying a sword?

[mb]

And you're still completely ignoring the context of the quote, which points to the fact that Rand is Aiel.

I speculated in the post that Third Age Aiel might also be descendants of Lews Therin.

Do not have proof of that, but the books do not disprove it either.

 

[bronnt]

And you're still completely ignoring the context of the quote, which points to the fact that Rand is Aiel.

I speculated in the post that Third Age Aiel might also be descendants of Lews Therin.

Do not have proof of that, but the books do not disprove it either.

 

 

Wow.  I assumed that the case you were making was that some of the Andoran line was descended from Lews Therin, which is also crazy, but doesn't have cited examples testifying against it.  Like, basically, that ENTIRE sequence in tSR where Rand traces all of his Aiel ancestry back to the Age of Legends.  I hate that you're making me hunt up these quotes-it really shouldn't be necessary.

 

Let's see-here's Someshta himself, the Green Man, in the Age of Legends.

 

"Singing," Someshta said.  "Was there singing? So much is gone.  The Aes Sedai say some will return.  You are a Child of the Dragon, are you not?"

 

Jonai winced.  That name had caused trouble no less for not being true.  But how many citizens now believed the Da'shain  Aiel had onced served the Dragon and no other Aes Sedai?-The Shadow Rising, The Dedicated

  Emphasis mine.

 

Later that chapter

 

If Charn had to make up stories, Coumin wished he could say he had served Lews Therin, the great leader himself.

 

Demonstrating that Rand's line runs back to Aiel, but not even Aiel closely affiliated with Lews Therin, therefore, no chance that there are any of Lews Therin's children.  Remember, the POVs he sees while in the columns are his own ancestry, on the Aiel side.  The

 

Plus, we have Someshta making the EXACT same reference, 3000 years earlier, that he does in EotW, and he means the exact same thing in it.  The Aiel are the given the name People of the Dragon during the Age of Legends itself, while LTT is still alive.  It's not because they owe any of their descent to Lews Therin, but because the Da'shain served Aes Sedai, and Lews Therin was elected the leader of the Aes Sedai.

[Agitel]

lol, I basically just typed up and posted everything bronnt wrote (including the bolded part with the emphasis mine line), except I did it before reading his post. ah well.

 

Well, let me keep what he didn't already post.

 

You'd also have to believe that LTT himself had fathered thousands of Aiel, considering how many had been serving Aes Sedai, and "enough Aiel to populate a city" moving with a thousand wagons full of ter'angreal leaving Paaran Disen under Jonai's leadership. And it's implied that "enough Aiel to populate a city" is only a smidgen compared to how many Aiel there once were, when Jonai thinks of them as "perhaps all the Aiel left in the world".

 

[Amadine]

From the World of RJ's WoT - my bold

 

"Lews Therin's deeds, however, were recorded, and have survived the Breaking to live on in legend, for he is known not only to have wrecked great devastation upon the land, but to have killed every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved."

 

To me this means that LTT did just that and that Rand cannot be a descendant of LTT.

[bronnt]

From the World of RJ's WoT - my bold

 

"Lews Therin's deeds, however, were recorded, and have survived the Breaking to live on in legend, for he is known not only to have wrecked great devastation upon the land, but to have killed every living person who carried any of his blood, as well as everyone he loved."

 

To me this means that LTT did just that and that Rand cannot be a descendant of LTT.

 

Yeah, at first, I thought this argument could be solved that simply.  Apparently not, though.