A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[ed2funy]

I know.I said that like...two times already. :P

 

But they bring up good points.... :)

[Arath Faringal]

Kind of makes you wonder what Verin would have said if she'd been caught in the Purge.

 

"I am Black Ajah."

 

*gasps all around*

 

"I'm also NOT a Darkfriend."

 

*crickets chirping*

[ed2funy]

"Say what my Aes Sedai?!"

:D

[dholm]

He does indeed. The issue is simply that Brandon seems to be directing us at ways to evade the power of the Oath Rod, not mental gymnastics around them.

 

Hmn. Well, what if there's a weave that mimics the Oath Rod? I mean, ter'angreal are objects of the Power -- maybe it's possible to do the same thing with just a weave.

 

Though whether or not it's possible to use such a weave on yourself is questionable...

 

I don't see any other way to evade it. Either you use "mental gymnastics", as you say, and avoid the First Oath by not actually speaking an untrue word, or you avoid swearing on it in some manner or another (recording, Illusion, whatever), or you immediately remove the Oaths.

[ed2funy]

Or there is a weave that can unbind you.

I would lean more towards a weave, as the only ter'angreal have are from the AoL and the ones Elayne made.

 

[Fleety]

All of us just list the oaths, like this:

 

  1.  To speak no word that is not true

  2.  To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

  3.  Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai

 

When seen like this, they are independant oaths.

 

However, wouldnt it be more like this:

 

I swear to speak no word that is not true, to make no weapon with which one man may kill another, and to never use the one power as a weapon...... etc

 

That is what most Aes Sedai would say, and mean.  3 oaths, all in one sentence.

 

I suggest you could circumvent the three oaths like this:

 

I swear to speak no word that is not true: to make no weapon with which one man may kill another, and to never use the one power as a weapon...etc.

 

So in effect, you are only swearing 2 oaths. Everything bolded is the preamble.  It could be your intention to say the oath like that. So what you intend is this: what I am about to speak, right now, is true: that I wont make a weapon or use the OP as a weapon.  But everything else that comes after: such as I'm not a darkfriend, or I'm not black Ajah, is fine, because you're not bound with regards to truth telling.

 

First post, by the way.

[ed2funy]

Actually, they seperate it into three Oaths.

They pause, especially on their first time and let it 'sink' in, so they feel it.

 

Good first post. Welcome!

[Luckers]

Welcome to Dragonmount.

 

However the statement of the Oaths involves swearing on each one.

[BladeDancer]

Mesaana almost certainly knows more about Binders then modern Aes Sedai. The current Aes Sedai only seem to have this single Binder which they use to initiate full Aes Sedai. Perhaps Mesaana has another binder which she could be holding simultaneously which nullifies the Oath Rod. Or perhaps Mesaana can bind herself to another Binder beforehand which would somehow mean the Oath Rod could not affect her - it is unknown whether someone can bound by more than one Binder at the same time.

 

Maybe Mesaana did not reswear at all. She might have been out of the Tower when the majority of the reswearing was done. Then she could Travel back a few days later and just claim she was out for a weekend break or some plausible excuse for her absence. She would be asked to reswear at that point but maybe only in front of Silviana plus a few others. In which case Mesaana could use Compulsion on those present to make them think she had sworn in their presence.

[cleantoe]

Whether Mesaana believes she's Black Ajah or not is irrelevant, because she isn't.

 

Verin says that joining the Black Ajah was a unique/horrible experience. Can't remember exactly how she described it.

 

There is no evidence that the Chosen also went through this process. I mean, I've never even gotten a whiff of evidence suggesting that the Chosen went through the same process thousands of years before. Ergo, the Chosen are different from the typical BA.

[nophone]

All of us just list the oaths, like this:

 

   1.   To speak no word that is not true

   2.   To make no weapon with which one man may kill another

   3.   Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai

 

When seen like this, they are independant oaths.

 

However, wouldnt it be more like this:

 

I swear to speak no word that is not true, to make no weapon with which one man may kill another, and to never use the one power as a weapon...... etc

 

That is what most Aes Sedai would say, and mean.  3 oaths, all in one sentence.

 

I suggest you could circumvent the three oaths like this:

 

I swear to speak no word that is not true: to make no weapon with which one man may kill another, and to never use the one power as a weapon...etc.

 

So in effect, you are only swearing 2 oaths. Everything bolded is the preamble.  It could be your intention to say the oath like that. So what you intend is this: what I am about to speak, right now, is true: that I wont make a weapon or use the OP as a weapon.  But everything else that comes after: such as I'm not a darkfriend, or I'm not black Ajah, is fine, because you're not bound with regards to truth telling.

 

First post, by the way.

 

actually I quite like this. Sort of like you're agreeing to never do all 3 of those things... You could do 2 of them  (which ever 2 you did first) so long as you also did not do the 3rd one... kudos.

[Morsmordre]

I agree with this post but aren't Aes Sedai supposed to be intelligent..? Surely, if they are all gathered in a hall to reswear their Oaths, somebody would notice if one of them said "I swear to speak no word that is not true: to make no weapon with which one man may kill another, and to never use the one power as a weapon...... etc" instead of making pauses between the sentences. We've seen many times that Aes Sedai are not almighty and omnipresent but still they are not some stupid ducks. I guess that we'll have to do better than that. The answer of the question 'How did Mesaana manage to go around the Oaths' is either the most obvious or something we've never seen so far in the books.

 

However, there is something else that bothers me. How are Amiko and Joya Bair able to speak of the BA's affairs if they had also sworn the Oaths to the DO!? I just don't get it why did Verin have to kill herself if she was able to speak freely on the matters of the BA..? It looks like such a waste... What if she was able to speak what she wanted without having to kill herself? After all, she didn't betray the DO so much, she just told Egweene what the books were for...

[BladeDancer]

I've just thought of something.

 

Egwene purged her own encampment of Exiled Aes Sedai initially and caught and executed some Black Ajah with the rest having fled. She was then acknowledged by the Tower Aes Sedai. At some point that day she then made the Tower Aes Sedai reswear/test for Black Ajah (and this scene is not described). Now I am assuming that Mesaana was masquerading as an Aes Sedai in the Tower. She has done this by capturing, interrogating and then killing an existing Aes Sedai and then impersonating them using an illusion weave. On the day of the reswearing Mesaana could have captured and impersonated one of the Aes Sedai from Egwene's encampment - someone who had already been through the reswearing process earlier in the first Black Ajah purge. Egwene's Aes Sedai would not be required to reswear their Oaths in the White Tower as they had already gone through this before witnesses. So Mesaana could still be impersonating an Aes Sedai in the White Tower but she is now impersonating someone else.

 

Or on a similar theme, Mesaana could have just been hiding in the Tower since the Seanchan attack (or have been absent altogether) and after Egwene comes in and reswears everyone, Mesaana could pounce on an Aes Sedai when they are alone and do her interrogation routine before replacing and impersonating them. So Mesaana could now be impersonating any Aes Sedai that has been seen to reswear on the Oath Rod. The person that Mesaana was initially impersonating would be missing but would be assumed to be taken by the Seanchan.

[NetSlider]

Don't take the oaths :). I think Messana is in the Tower but not as an AS. That cook lady was mentioned before, and I think it might just be it.

[cleantoe]

Don't take the oaths :). I think Messana is in the Tower but not as an AS. That cook lady was mentioned before, and I think it might just be it.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong. ;)

 

There is irrefutable proof that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai. Both a Chosen and Verin have said as much. Maybe if it was just one of them, it could have been in doubt. But two different people who are both on the side of the Dark have pointed out Mesaana is posing as Aes Sedai.

 

I don't know why you guys keep arguing this point.

[NetSlider]

Don't take the oaths :). I think Messana is in the Tower but not as an AS. That cook lady was mentioned before, and I think it might just be it.

 

Sorry, but you're wrong. ;)

 

There is irrefutable proof that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai. Both a Chosen and Verin have said as much. Maybe if it was just one of them, it could have been in doubt. But two different people who are both on the side of the Dark have pointed out Mesaana is posing as Aes Sedai.

 

I don't know why you guys keep arguing this point.

 

The reason why it makes no sense is because if she is really posing as AS it is too easy. She is the only Forsaken that is known to be where she is to everyone!

[dholm]

However, there is something else that bothers me. How are Amiko and Joya Bair able to speak of the BA's affairs if they had also sworn the Oaths to the DO!? I just don't get it why did Verin have to kill herself if she was able to speak freely on the matters of the BA..? It looks like such a waste... What if she was able to speak what she wanted without having to kill herself? After all, she didn't betray the DO so much, she just told Egweene what the books were for...

Joiya lies through her teeth. Amico was stilled and thus freed of her Oaths.

 

Verin most definitely betrayed the Great Lord by providing Egwene with a list of the Black Ajah.

[mb]

Most (if not all) ways to evade any binding oath I think have this in common:: belief

 

not speaking any untrue thing: belief in the thing being true

not making any weapon with which a man could kill another: belief that the thing does not kill and/or is not a weapon

not using One Power except against Shadowspawn or in defense of self/warder/Aes-Sedia: belief that victim is a shadowspawn and/or belief that victim threatens life of self/warder/Aes-Sedia

 

oaths of fealty: belief that the action would be something that the other would wish or would command

not betraying someone except in last hour of life: belief that death would come within an hour and/or belief that action/speech does not betray the someone

 

[Gordar]

1. little question. When is the last time we see Mesaana?

 

(well, 2 little questions...)

 

2. When was the last time Elaida sent sisters away on a mission?

 

(I could answer these questions myself, but I'd have to read 2 books again from the start...)

 

Graendal probably doesn't use channelers as spies (and even if she does, they probably don't know how to make a gateway) & she probably won't open a gate in the tower. Graendal remained in Arad Doman, which is on the other side of the continent, so the information she has is already quite old by the time it reaches her.

 

Verin doesn't know which Aes Sedai Mesaana is impersonating.

 

Egwene only suspects those people that have fled the tower & everyone else has retaken the oaths (I don't buy the inverted weave theory since I simply don't believe it would work (it wouldn't be of much use in the AOL when everyone knew how to weave inverted weaves), nor do I think Mesaana keeps the person she's impersonating around... If someone accidently entered the wrong room & found the person she's impersonating, Mesaana would be toast...)

 

Also keep in mind that Egwene still has all of Elaida's plans, books, orders, etc. locked away. Why mention that if it's of no importance?

 

& what exactly did BS say? Did he explicitly say she's still in the tower or did he say she's still part of the tower?

[BladeDancer]

Don't take the oaths :). I think Messana is in the Tower but not as an AS. That cook lady was mentioned before, and I think it might just be it.

 

 

There is irrefutable proof that Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai. Both a Chosen and Verin have said as much. Maybe if it was just one of them, it could have been in doubt. But two different people who are both on the side of the Dark have pointed out Mesaana is posing as Aes Sedai.

 

 

Right near the end of TGS, Egwene is wondering who Mesaana could be. She mentions that before she had been executed Sheriam had confirmed Verin's suspicions that Mesaana was hiding in the Tower.

 

I doubt Laras could be Mesaana. Laras has to cook all day every day - I doubt one of the Forsaken would choose such a position to impersonate. Cooking for hundreds of people everyday? I cannot see it. Also Laras dressed up Min like a doll and gave her beauty tips! This hardly holds with Mesaana's personality of being a badass Forsaken. - Sorry Moridin, I could not attend the battle to kill Al Thor because I was baking a cake and I had to get the icing right!

[yoniy0]

2. When was the last time Elaida sent sisters away on a mission?

The last sister (actually a sitter) sent by Elaida on a mission would be Duhara Basaheen, a Red/Black Sitter sent to make life difficult for Elayne. I don't see Mesaana as Duhara, but maybe I'm wrond.

 

Regarding the Laras debate, give it up people. Graendal said she was having Mesaana watched and that she posed as an AS. She could hardly not know Mesaana's identity if she was having her watched!

[saidarisnowtainted]

maybe you can weave the mask of mirrors to make it appear that you are saying the oaths when in fact you are not.

[thehavenot]

If Mesaana were to swear "Under the Light and by my salvation and hope of rebirth" wouldn't that make the oaths null and void since she feels that she will live forever under the Shadow?

[Dreamwalker]

I've read some interesting theories on this thread, but nothing has been sufficient to convince me that the simplest answer (i.e. that Mesaana does not consider herself a mere Darkfriend or Black Ajah) is the best. It's exactly the kind of mental gymnastics we've seen done by Aes Sedai before to get around the first oath, and I think that this is what Brandon was referring to as a way to beat the oath rod. The other theories seem too convoluted to be successfully pulled off - especially the one about keeping her Aes Sedai alter ego prisoner somehow then having her swear the oath. There are just too many places that plan could go wrong, so I don't think Mesaana would be relying on it.

 

I also don't think it should be considered "too easy" as Mesaana is a very special case being a Forsaken - the BA would have a much more difficult (probably impossible) time convincing themselves it's not a lie via the wording of the statement.

 

Further, I put forth that Danelle is Mesaana's alter ego:

• She is a Brown, which is hinted by the color of Mesaana's dress as well as that it would fit what we know of Mesaana's personality as a scholar/researcher.
  
• She has big blue eyes, Mesaana's most prominent feature.
  
• She has no friends, making her quite easy to replace. Also her seeming absent-mindedness gets her ignored and is an easy cover to keep up.
  
• The normally dreamy Danelle suddenly, and with no apparent motive, took quite a prominent role in deposing Siuan Sanche. And in doing so, Ch. 47 tSR, "Little Danelle actually smirked at her." This doesn't exactly sound like someone who's been described as "dreamy even for a Brown," but it does sound like something one of the Forsaken would do as they tend to scoff at today's Aes Sedai.
  
• The others who helped get Elaida in the stole tried to make power grabs for themselves, but she just stepped back into obscurity, which would be convenient for a Forsaken wanting to work from the shadows.
  

 

[Luckers]

The Danelle theory has been around for a while. In addition to the points you raised, Danelle was the one who brought in the three hundred 'masons' who began the fighting, and thus escalated the hostilities in the Tower to the point that led to the break.