A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Val Mickey]

I've always suspected Tsutama. She does have different affectations post-exile, and those who might doubt her, are either dead, bonded to Asha'man, or occupied elsewhere.

 

For me, what shot down the Danelle theory was Alviarin. Alviarin has seen a lot of Danelle, so she might have connected the dots on seeing Mesaana, sooner than later.

[yoniy0]

Not Tsutama. The Highest doesn't fit the time restriction (we've only seen her in KoD).

[Val Mickey]

Yeah, Tsutama appears only in KOD, but there's no mention of when she arrived. She's perfect for the role, except for the bad language.

[yoniy0]

No, I meant that RJ've said we should be able to deduce who she was after CoT (or was it before that?), so it can't be Tsutama.

[Sharaman]

Also out on internal evidence.

Tsutsama returned to the WT only after TSR

Verin met Mesaana twice in the WT before she left for the Two Rivers.

 

 

[Lambada]

Isn't this thread meant to be on evading the Oath rod, not on Mesaana's identity?

Every time I check this thread I hope there is another theory on evading the rod.

Instead I get this debate on Mesaanas identity.

 

There is a separate thread for Mesaana's identity debate.

 

So getting back on topic.

 

It seems one of the more popular theories is a glove and mask of mirrors.

I'm not convinced - it is elegant, certainly, but it doesn't seem to me to ring true, I can't say why, but my gut says no.

[yoniy0]

Sorry, I just tried to help.

 

Regarding Mesaana's evading the Oath Rod, I've promised not to post my opinion here again (you could find it if you look back to the start of the discussion), and from what I gather from people posting their opinions on other topics, there haven't been many new theories lately.

[farthammer]

Maybe we're overlooking the history of the oath rod and what it actually may have meant.  if you were bound by it as a criminal, does that mean it must stay on for the rest of your life?  No possibility to remove it?  Suppose if the oath rod was intended such that the person bound had to confront within themself, the thing that they did to wind up being straight jacketed by the OP.  And the binding power was removed like a wilder's block when they had their own little 'veins of gold' moment over it.  Understanding some important truth or moral lesson at a level that makes the rod redundant and unnecessary.  I think if that were not the case then it's just a cage whose restrictions make it more worthwhile to find ways around the truth. 

 

I think Egwene is honing in on this with how emphatic she is about the oaths defining the AS, and simultaneously contemplating the idea of letting aging sisters retiring to the kin without them.  Funny how it's the kin that wind up looking like a bunch of enlightened Buddha's when compared to how the AS behave.  They have this kind of reverence toward the WT and what they stand for, but just weren't aware of the fraud of the channeler's actually occupying it.

[Sharaman]

Given the context of Brandon's quote, (he was answering a specific question about rationalisation of "darkfriend") and the way in which he said it, the "way to evade" is not to think thoughts that allow rationalisation.

 

Also it seems to me, that the "way" whatever it is, depends on concrete and apparently disparate elements of knowledge the reader already possesses from the books.

 

This is why I like the sound-recorder, sound-delaying weaves business, which was mentioned earlier in the thread. We've seen those ter'angreal existing in vast quantities, we've seen the Aiel use a weave that AS don't know that can delay sound and release it later on demand.

 

Some variation on this could work and it requires less speculation about things we don't know.

 

 

 

[mb]

Sanderson did not explicitly say that Mesaana evaded the rod.  Until Sanderson clarifies, his comments would be no more than a matter of interpretation.

The other methods have not been tested on-screen in the books.  Until the books show and/or until Sanderson confirms/denies any of them, they shall be just theory.

I disagree. There is a huge difference in "evading the oath rod" and "evading the oaths." "There is a way", Sanderson told us. We already know there is a way to evade the oaths themselves. It's called lying by omission. Sanderson wasn't telling us the sky is blue, he was telling us we should be thinking of something else.

I agree that Sanderson told us that there is a way; yet Sanderson did not tell one way or the other of Mesaana using that way.

The way shall be unknown until the books include it and/or until Sanderson clarifies.

 

All participants were likely shielded as a precaution.  If so, Mesaana would not been able to do any channeling.

And previously, the rod was likely in the possession of the Black Ajah hunters.  Thus she would have been unable to bug it.

Supposition that they were shielded. The first Aes Sedai we see re-take the oaths were not shielded and there's no reason they would add an extra insult to having to swear them over again. They were all prepared to stop any sister that tried to run. Mesaana would also not allow herself to be shielded. Her pride would get in the way almost as much as her sense that it would be really, really, really stupid to let her enemies shield her while she was running a disguise that relied on the power. You can tie that weave off but anything can happen and she would not put herself in that position.

I think only Blacks/Darkfriends would have felt insulted.

All participants I think did not have a choice on being shielded or not; to me they were shielded regardless of their wishes.

If Mesaana knew about it, she would have these choices::

-flee/hide before it took place

-comply with Egwene (and Egwene's Aes Sedia)

No more than those.

 

Or if the participants were not shielded; any channeling trick might have raised suspicions even if the channeling was inverted.  Inverting was known in at least the rebel camp.  Egwene probably taught it (among other things) to select non-Blacks in the Tower sometime before doing the event.

The use of any device (besides the Oath Rod) during the event might also have raised suspicions.

 

Yet the Oaths do not seem to contradict her oath/oaths to the Dark One.

 

[Lambada]

And a new idea.

 

What about if Mesaana had a ter'angreal hidden on her?

 

We know similar ter'angreal can affect each other. Perhaps they could have interfered in such a way that the Oath Rod appeared to work, but didn't.

 

Question is, is there any ter'angreal that is even remotely similar to the Binder function wise that we have heard of?

[yoniy0]

Another Binder? If Sammael could find one...

[Durinax]

Another Binder? If Sammael could find one...

she just has to kill Therava and seize it

[mb]

Question is, is there any ter'angreal that is even remotely similar to the Binder function wise that we have heard of?

Only terangreal that has a similar function that I can think of is the Binding Chair.  I take that one is for non-channelers.

Though the books have not yet revealed its location.

 

There are a number of terangreal that have a similar shape.

 

[Durinax]

Question is, is there any ter'angreal that is even remotely similar to the Binder function wise that we have heard of?

Only terangreal that has a similar function that I can think of is the Binding Chair.  I take that one is for non-channelers.

Though the books have not yet revealed its location.

 

There are a number of terangreal that have a similar shape.

 

wahts the name of the chair the BA hunters use on that one lady? I thought that was the binding chair and is used to torture criminals

[yoniy0]

Yeah, me too. It doesn't have a name, or at least current day AS don't know its name, I think.

[mb]

wahts the name of the chair the BA hunters use on that one lady? I thought that was the binding chair and is used to torture criminals

I take it is called Chair of Remorse.

Its function seems different.

 

[Lambada]

Chair of Remorse.

It doesn't bind someone, rather makes them see the most undesireable outcomes of their actions. Whether these are only possible outcomes or not...

 

but either way, its function is definitely different.

 

I'm browsing through encyclopedia-wot's list of ter'angreal now.

[yoniy0]

You could use it to bind someone, though, like they do on a clockwork orange. I take it that there isn't a way to actually Bind someone who can't channel (barring Compulsion, of course), they're just less susceptible to such things. Of course, I have nothing at all to base that on except the fact that the Chair of Remorse (thanks for correcting me, BTW) is a chair, and as I said I can see how one would use it for binding.

[bobothebarbarian]

Sanderson did not explicitly say that Mesaana evaded the rod.  Until Sanderson clarifies, his comments would be no more than a matter of interpretation.

The other methods have not been tested on-screen in the books.  Until the books show and/or until Sanderson confirms/denies any of them, they shall be just theory.

I disagree. There is a huge difference in "evading the oath rod" and "evading the oaths." "There is a way", Sanderson told us. We already know there is a way to evade the oaths themselves. It's called lying by omission. Sanderson wasn't telling us the sky is blue, he was telling us we should be thinking of something else.

I agree that Sanderson told us that there is a way; yet Sanderson did not tell one way or the other of Mesaana using that way.

The way shall be unknown until the books include it and/or until Sanderson clarifies.

 

All participants were likely shielded as a precaution.  If so, Mesaana would not been able to do any channeling.

And previously, the rod was likely in the possession of the Black Ajah hunters.  Thus she would have been unable to bug it.

Supposition that they were shielded. The first Aes Sedai we see re-take the oaths were not shielded and there's no reason they would add an extra insult to having to swear them over again. They were all prepared to stop any sister that tried to run. Mesaana would also not allow herself to be shielded. Her pride would get in the way almost as much as her sense that it would be really, really, really stupid to let her enemies shield her while she was running a disguise that relied on the power. You can tie that weave off but anything can happen and she would not put herself in that position.

I think only Blacks/Darkfriends would have felt insulted.

All participants I think did not have a choice on being shielded or not; to me they were shielded regardless of their wishes.

If Mesaana knew about it, she would have these choices::

-flee/hide before it took place

-comply with Egwene (and Egwene's Aes Sedia)

No more than those.

 

Or if the participants were not shielded; any channeling trick might have raised suspicions even if the channeling was inverted.  Inverting was known in at least the rebel camp.  Egwene probably taught it (among other things) to select non-Blacks in the Tower sometime before doing the event.

The use of any device (besides the Oath Rod) during the event might also have raised suspicions.

 

Yet the Oaths do not seem to contradict her oath/oaths to the Dark One.

 

it seems obvious to me that the way to evade the oaths is to just stay calm she dosent think of her self as a DF so she is clear going from tGS

We will each in turn use the Oath Rod to release ourselves from the Three Oaths, then reswear them in turn. Once we are all bound, we will be able to promise that we are not servants of—” 

Sheriam embraced the Source. Egwene had been anticipating that. She slammed a shield between Sheriam and the Source, causing the woman to gasp. Berana cried out in shock, and several other women embraced the Source, looking this way and that.

Egwene turned and met Sheriam’s eyes. The woman’s face was nearly as red as her hair, and she was breathing in and out quickly. Like a captured rabbit, its leg in a snare, eyes wide with fright. She clutched her bandaged hand.

Oh, Sberiam, Egwene thought. I had hoped that Verin was wrong about you.

“Egwene?” Sheriam asked uncomfortably. “I was just—” 

Egwene stepped forward. “Are you Black Ajah, Sheriam?”

“What? Of course not!”

“Do you consort with the Forsaken?”

“No!” Sheriam said, glancing to the sides.

“Do you serve the Dark One?”

“No!”

“Have you been released from your oaths?”

“No!”

“Do you have red hair?”

“Of course not, I never—" She froze.

And thank you for that trick as well, Verin, Egwene thought with a mental sigh. The tent grew very, very still.

Sheriam was screwed anyway cause see did think of her self as a DF but from this part

Romanda took the Oath Rod, and did as instructed, releasing herself from the oaths. The process was obviously painful, but she held herself to a controlled, hissing intake of breath. The others watched carefully for a trick,

---

The Sitters looked daunted. “First,” Egwene said, “we will claim that we need to spread important news to every Sister, but can’t let it be overheard by the soldiers in camp. We’ll call the sisters into this pavilion by Ajah—it’s big enough to hold about two hundred people. I’ll distribute to each of you the names of all the Black sisters. When each Ajah enters, I’ll repeat to them what I told you and tell them they’re all going to have to reswear on the Oath Rod. We’ll be ready to seize Black sisters who try to escape. We’ll tie them up and deposit them in the audience tent

as long as it was done in generally the same way in the tower says that everyone was watched carefully for a trick and that they were not shielded when they re-swore  but then again who knows

[MikeRiley]

it seems obvious to me that the way to evade the oaths is to just stay calm she dosent think of her self as a DF so she is clear going from tGS

 

The problem with that is it both "evades an oath" not "evades the oath rod" and does not evade all 3 oaths - just one. Evading the oath rod implies that the oaths do not take effect at all.

[Aquarius]

The problem with that is it both "evades an oath" not "evades the oath rod" and does not evade all 3 oaths - just one. Evading the oath rod implies that the oaths do not take effect at all.

Very good summary of those 50+ forum pages. :) I can't imagine we may have something to add to this topic other than RAFO.

[Val Mickey]

What if Mesaana uses her alias' name in the oath? For instance "I, Danelle Brown Steele, hereby vow to never utter a false word, ..." . Since she is not Danelle, the whole statement is false, and the oaths would not be valid, anymore than she can vow that she will be Mr. Universe in ten days. :)

[Duskfire]

What if Mesaana uses her alias' name in the oath? For instance "I, Danelle Brown Steele, hereby vow to never utter a false word, ..." . Since she is not Danelle, the whole statement is false, and the oaths would not be valid, anymore than she can vow that she will be Mr. Universe in ten days. :)

 

Thats possible I suppose. If she thinks in her mind she isn't Dannelle at all then I could see that working.

[Sharaman]

The quote that started the whole thread

 

Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

Did none of you guys bother to read it before posting or do you like doing the Groundhog Day jive?

Brandon answers your question and dismisses the whole lying/ rationalisation approach, when he talks about defeating the OR.