A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Mardragon]

I came to this thread quite late and so haven't read all the posts, so apologies if this possibility has been mentioned.

 

We know that at least some of the forsaken are so arrogant in their power that they don't even consider themselves human any more. Semhirag is such an example, and I think Mesaana would fit that profile too. I think the same could be true for dark friends too, I.e. the forsaken may consider themselves so far above normal dark friends they don't consider themselves to be one of them (although technically they are).  To such a person, darkfriends are servants to use how they will. They are the Chosen. Besides, we know from characters like Lanfear that some of the forsaken turned to the shadow more to increase their own power than out of a sense of devotion to the Dark One.

 

I think this could give Mesaana the loophole she needs to beat the oath rod.

[Sharaman]

I came to this thread quite late and so haven't read all the posts, so apologies if this possibility has been mentioned.

 

We know that at least some of the forsaken are so arrogant in their power that they don't even consider themselves human any more. Semhirag is such an example, and I think Mesaana would fit that profile too. I think the same could be true for dark friends too, I.e. the forsaken may consider themselves so far above normal dark friends they don't consider themselves to be one of them (although technically they are).  To such a person, darkfriends are servants to use how they will. They are the Chosen. Besides, we know from characters like Lanfear that some of the forsaken turned to the shadow more to increase their own power than out of a sense of devotion to the Dark One.

 

I think this could give Mesaana the loophole she needs to beat the oath rod.

 

Read the very first post.

[Random Man]

Thanks, Sharaman.

 

On another note, I'd like to see if we can develop the recorder theory. This would work of the premise that:

 

1. The Oath Rod works similar to Compulsion, and binds the person by what the person specifically swears to.

2. The action of binding occurs when, and only when, the person to be bound actually says what he/she agrees to be bound against. That person is then Compelled by said action. (since belief or intent is key to the Oath Rod, I put forth the premise one must physically say the words).

3. Were an individual to say nothing, or nothing specifically binding, the Oath Rod would appear to an observer as if it was active, and therefore binding (this is the weak link thus far because we don't know specifically how it looks when it's binding versus just being activated)

4. Mesaana remained in the Tower, and thus had to swear on the Oath Rod.

 

Using these premises, I put forth the following suppositions:

 

1. Mesaana is well-skilled in illusion, which includes the ability to invert one's weave so that she could activate an inverted weave without notice.

2. Mesaana "swore" on her own volition, and as such was not suspected of wrongdoing, therefore she was not shielded at the time.

3. Mesaana either knows how to "record" one's words with the Power, or has a ter'angreal that allows one to record and play speech at will or can receive words from another transmitter. (we know both are possible and were widely used during the Age of Legends)

4. Mesaana is able to lip-sync.

5. If Mesaana used a communication device, it would have been easily concealable (been an object such as an earing)

6. If Mesaana used a communication device, a BA Sister was in on the con (most likely Alviarin).

7. Mesaana pulled off this con, and thus is still hiding in the White Tower, a woman believed to have taken the Three Oaths but not bound by them.

 

Thoughts? This seems entirely plausible, fits with her masquerading as a Sister, and is much simpler than her somehow having a weave to counteract the Oath Rod.

[Hadilmir]

Though I doubt it would be Alviarin since she knows Mesaana wants her dead, and could deliver her to the Aes Sedai with no personal risk in that situation. So, assuming Mesaana is not dead, it was not Alviarin. I very much like this theory though.

[Random Man]

You've got a point there with Alviarin -- that would have been a prime opportunity for Alviarin to screw her over if Mesaana trusted her to do it.

[mb]

Another channeler cannot see an inverted weave, so Mesaana could have let loose with her voice weave and none would be the wiser.

But other channelers seem to be able to 'see' the effects of the weaves.

During the Cleansing, Verin knew Graendal was channeling even though Graendal inverted her weave.

And in the example you gave, the Aes Sedia could tell that Leane was channeling.

 

[Hadilmir]

...But the only effect would be a sound. You can't see sound unless you have synesthesia like me.  ;)

[Paerish Swar]

I'd like to see if we can develop the recorder theory.

 

I'm not a proponent of the "recorder theory."  It may be very possible, but I don't like it.

 

What's my reason for feeling this way?

 

It would be really bad writing!

 

Presumably Egwene and Mesaana are going to have some kind of confrontation in the next book (or two).  Egwene will likely have to use her pretty, little mind to figure out how one of the Forsaken could trick the Oath Rod, and then attempt to track her down based on that knowledge.  If Egwene figures out how she did it, she can then follow the clues which may lead her to Mesaana.

 

If BS shows us Egwene's POV with her musing about random ter'angreal we've never seen before, making some weird intellectual leap towards voice recording technology, or (even worse) if BS shows us Mesaana's POV with her walking in with an AoL mp3 player rocking the greatest hits of the Oath Rod. . .that is going to be really disappointing.

 

Deus ex Machina, anyone?

 

It seems to me that RJ was consciously leading up to this Oath Rod question for a really long time.  (He was a master craftsman!)  I doubt that it was intended for some random little thing/object that we've never heard about before, never seen on stage before, never witnessed the use of before to be the means of defeating the Oath Rod.

 

And remember, BS said that we should be thinking of ways to defeat the Oath Rod itself.

 

I don't think he meant that we should all try to "manufacture" ways that the Rod could be defeated.  I think he meant that there was enough information that had already been put out there in the series - things we already know and have seen - that can lead us to a reasonable idea of how it was done.

 

(Also, let's work this out for a second.  If someone is holding the Rod and is channeling the spirit into it themselves and then says the words, the Oath sticks to the person holding the Rod who said the words.  If someone holding the Rod is not channeling the spirit into it themselves, when the words are said by the person holding the Rod the Oath still sticks to the person holding the Rod who said the words. 

 

I have to wonder, if Mesaana is holding the Rod and channeling the spirit into it herself - as seems to have been the case for the "reswearing ceremony" - and if a voice is emanating from her person while she is moving her lips silently in concert with the words. . .what is to say that the Rod would be tricked by that?  The words were "vocalized," her mouth formed the words, her hands were on the Rod, she was activating the Rod with spirit, and doing so of her own volition.  I could argue that all of the required elements for taking the Oaths are still there.  But can the Oath Rod make such a fine distinction as we can?  Maybe.  That's another question those of you who are fans of this theory will have to try to answer, as far as I'm concerned.)       

 

I will admit that the theory I posted a number of weeks ago is somewhat similar to this one, and may be just as  far-fetched.  I think mine has a little bit more support from things that actually occurred in the text, but that's the direction we should be going in, after all - developing ideas from what we've seen already in the books.

 

[Sharaman]

We've seen a sound-retarding weave.

We've seen a lot of recording devices retrieved from Ebou Dar in KoD when AVi ids what they all do. We've also seen Alvi given some sort of comm device so we can presume that Messi has some source of such artefacts.

Or perhaps she can use a inverted version of the WO sound-retarding weave to simply hold an invisible bubble of sound that she records earlier and releases at the right instant.

There is enough info to develop this theory.

I agree that it may not be elegant in terms of writing and it may well be something else that actually beats the OR.

 

 

[Paerish Swar]

We've seen a sound-retarding weave.

We've seen a lot of recording devices retrieved from Ebou Dar in KoD when AVi ids what they all do. We've also seen Alvi given some sort of comm device so we can presume that Messi has some source of such artefacts.

Or perhaps she can use a inverted version of the WO sound-retarding weave to simply hold an invisible bubble of sound that she records earlier and releases at the right instant.

There is enough info to develop this theory.

I agree that it may not be elegant in terms of writing and it may well be something else that actually beats the OR.

 

The WO sound-retarding weave is a possibility, but I still wonder if that would even matter in context of how the Oath Rod may function, since we don't really know the specifics of that [is the "vocalization" of the oaths (even via a recording device), mouthing of the words, holding the rod, and weaving the flow of spirit not enough?  Does the OR need the words to be spoken physically at that moment?].  Also, do we know that Mesaana knows this weave?  There are a bare handful of weaves and objects that were developed by 3rd Agers - warder bonds, healing stilling, the a'dam, weave disruptor ter'angreal, etc.  What if the weave we witness with the Wise Ones is something they developed by themselves for their ceremony?

 

I was under the impression that the ter'angreal that Avi identifies were mostly for communicating across vast distances, not recording devices.  There was also the music box that held hundreds of songs and the statue that held thousands of books.  I'll have to find that chapter and read it again.

 

I'm fairly certain we haven't seen voice recorders yet.

 

If Mesaana has access to such a thing, and I realize that it could be somewhat safe to think she may since she did give Alviarin that little "pager" ter'angreal, we would still only be guessing that she does.  Or even guessing that she might be able to make one.

 

I'm more concerned with what we know she has access to.

 

I have a hunch that Brandon was hinting more in that direction.

[lordofsoup]

why would she risk it?  One of the Aes Sedai could happen to have a talent that allows them to see inverted weaves.  It seems like an awful risk.  I think the idea that she compelled someone to take her place sounds like the best bet. 

[Calderis]

Considering That your going to be having this person take the 3 oaths for you. Compulsion seems like a TERRIBLE idea. Not only would that amount of compulsion leave your victim a simple-minded waste of flesh, but after they've taken the first oath, your done. To Compulsion to the point that they believe the answers enough to be able to pass the oath road would be so invasive that they'd obviously be acting... off.

[Random Man]

why would she risk it?  One of the Aes Sedai could happen to have a talent that allows them to see inverted weaves.  It seems like an awful risk.  I think the idea that she compelled someone to take her place sounds like the best bet. 

 

A Talent to see inverted weaves is pretty far-fetched since we haven't seen any evidence that such a thing exists -- and new Talents aren't introduced unless they are convenient to the plot. It would be just as likely to say that Mesaana has a Talent that keeps her from being bound as to say that there's an Aes Sedai with a Talent to see an inverted weave. The Compulsion idea would be possible, but of course that goes against Brandon's word that every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has sworn on the Oath Rod, and would have the additional complication of having to Compel a woman under the Mask of Mirrors to not do anything that would foil her disguise.  And then you'd have to tie up any possible loose ends that might create. Easier to just do it yourself, if you can. (A Compelled person who isn't BA could still say she isn't BA after swearing against lies, but you do have a point, Calderis).

 

We have seen tons of different ways to create sounds with the Power, to capture sounds with the Power, to play recordings, and so forth. A device to communicate over long distances would also have the same fundamental properties as a recording device (i.e. the ability to capture and transmit speech). All it would take to set Egwene down this investigative pathway is one meeting with Elayne or Avi in the World of Dreams where they talk about Avi's new skill and what it identified. I would bet even money that hearing about the music box and the communication devices would get her thinking really quickly.

 

Since we don't have an accurate description of what the weaves of Spirit do during the binding process with the Oath Rod, we can also reasonably assume that what we've seen on-screen is what the Aes Sedai see -- Spirit channeled into the Oath Rod settles around the person when they speak. Because the words the person actually speaks seems to be what binds them, mimicry wouldn't be binding. Otherwise, you could go around all day binding people against their will. Mesaana could say "I swear to speak" and let loose with her inverted weave, and the weave would settle around her, binding her to the words "I swear to speak" -- but it wouldn't bind her to do anything but to talk, so it would have no real effect.

 

All that said, this theory is just that -- a theory. I feel it's a pretty solid one because there is foundation for this working in the text, but don't worry, if this isn't the way it goes down, that's because RJ laid out something way cooler a long time ago.

[ravenfier]

but if you just swear to speek , maybe that would have a backfire thing and you now can't shut up? chatter box messena, lol  ;D

[Random Man]

Heh, I've known a couple of people like that, maybe that's what happened to them  ;)

 

Of course, the "I swear to speak" part wasn't necessarily meant that she "swore" that literally, only as a means to get the Oath Rod to "engage" its weave, if such a mechanism is even needed. Theoretically, she could have "sworn" anything if she was creating an illusion: "I swear that water is wet" or "I swear to floss once in a while."

[Sharaman]

Yes, there are unanswered questions with the recorder theory as with any other.

But it does cover some of the bases and I think there is enough info with the reader to make it work.

In terms of assumptions

1) You have to assume Messi knows a weave to manipulate sound usefully

2) Maybe also that she has a comm device/ several devices that allow recording (note that the WO weave could itself be considered a recording "device" since it traps a "bubble of sound" until released).

3) We have to assume that the OR will not work if the person holding it says nothing

4) We have to assume that whatever is visible in OR functioning will not be obviously different

 

The first two points I think are reasonable, we don't, as Paerish has pointed out, know about 3 and 4.

All we know about 3,4 is that the "oaths settle" whatever that means - is it spirit enveloping the person holding the rod?

I think there is a verbal component to the rod as well as physical touch. It works on the person holding it,regardless of who channels spirit. We've always seen verbal oaths taken (though the issue remains how criminals in the AoL were coerced to say oaths, did they use the same methods as the BA hunters did on Talene or Therava on Galina?).

But there are unknowns here for sure.

 

[ravenfier]

I dont have my book handy right now but....

 

is the reswering following the form of a rasing cerimony, ie some one else is powering the rod or is each individual person powering it when they retake the oaths?

 

the raising situation the one swering only holds the rod and then swears the oaths, with(from our only example) the current Amyrlin powering it.

 

also can one weave of say water be distinguished from another of say fire by the same sex chanaler? cant remeber to tired.

[Calderis]

My point, Random, was that to function in place of Messi's alter Ego, someone would have to be compulsed to the point that they believed they were that person. She's gone to the effort to create this false personality.. Putting a Mask of Mirrors on a random sister and having her say she's not BA wouldn't be enough. At some point the fact that they're not who everyone looking on believes they are would come up, and compulsion heavy enough to make them believe they were Messi's persona would have side effects. With what we've seen of compulsion I don't buy it.

 

( I know you weren't disagreeing, just felt the need to clarify.)

[Aquarius]

You all come up with very complicated solutions to this issue...

 

I don't buy recording tools

I don't buy language alteration

I don't buy hidden weaves

...

 

I'd rather believe in a simple solution, they are often the best.

[Dreamwalker]

Swear ahead on the oath rod to only speak words that are untrue. (I know this is a little similar to something posted earlier, but this has a bit different wording that is simpler and I think would work better for oath-evasion.) Now when you speak the Oaths in front of the AS, you are lying. Would the rod bind you to the words you spoke in front of the AS, or to the intent of the words you spoke (intent here being the opposite of the three oaths since you are lying - basically, swearing to lie, to make weapons using the power, and to use the power as a weapon)? I'm not entirely convinced if this would work, but it might since the oaths seem to depend a lot on your own mentality - what you believe falls in and out of the oath. But it would be kind of cool if it did work. And the White Ajah might be able to figure it out because it resembles a pretty common logic puzzle (e.g. there are two people, one only speaks lies, the other truth, what should you ask to tell which is which?)

[Random Man]

Swear ahead on the oath rod to only speak words that are untrue. (I know this is a little similar to something posted earlier, but this has a bit different wording that is simpler and I think would work better for oath-evasion.) Now when you speak the Oaths in front of the AS, you are lying. Would the rod bind you to the words you spoke in front of the AS, or to the intent of the words you spoke (intent here being the opposite of the three oaths since you are lying - basically, swearing to lie, to make weapons using the power, and to use the power as a weapon)? I'm not entirely convinced if this would work, but it might since the oaths seem to depend a lot on your own mentality - what you believe falls in and out of the oath. But it would be kind of cool if it did work. And the White Ajah might be able to figure it out because it resembles a pretty common logic puzzle (e.g. there are two people, one only speaks lies, the other truth, what should you ask to tell which is which?)

 

I posted on this awhile back because I had the same thought. After consideration, though, I find it an unlikely theory, primarily because it requires Mesaana to have quick access to the oath rod -- one's headed toward the Waste, probably without her knowledge, and the other's been in Egwene's possession. Also, I'm starting to think that binding oneself to tell lies and then swearing to tell the truth might still end up creating a dangerous contradiction.

 

 

You all come up with very complicated solutions to this issue...

 

I don't buy recording tools

I don't buy language alteration

I don't buy hidden weaves

...

 

I'd rather believe in a simple solution, they are often the best.

 

The recording theory is probably the simplest solution we have so far, given the limitations we have -- namely that:

1. Mesaana is still in the Tower

2. Mesaana is posing as an Aes Sedai

3. All the remaining Aes Sedai have sworn on the Oath Rod

 

If Mesaana had someone under Compulsion to use as a proxy, why bother with all the illusion to begin with? Just keep tabs on the person from time to time -- better yet, have that person come to you to check in -- so why bother masquerading as an Aes Sedai to begin with?

 

If Mesaana believed herself to not be a Darkfriend or BA, she would still remain bound by the Three Oaths if she swore, which would not be an ideal circumstance.

 

Recording devices, communication devices and weaves that capture speech are three possible ways she could have gone about it that we already know exist. Any of these three would work for Mesaana's illusion.

 

I don't buy hidden weaves

What exactly do you mean by this statement? Think about this for a second. We know that Mesaana is using a version of the Mask of Mirrors as a disguise, which, of course, requires the Power. If the weaves used to create this were not inverted, then other Aes Sedai would be able to see the weaves. Not much of a disguise.

 

The recording theory provides both the means to evade the oaths without introducing any new plot devices, and, more importantly, fits with Mesaana's MO, which relies on the use of illusion to hide in plain sight. All it requires is the means to duplicate speech, a little lip-sync, and (possibly) the use of an inverted weave. It allows her to remain hidden in plain sight and leaves her unbound. How is this a complicated solution?

[Aquarius]

Sorry, my statement was a bit too harsh.

I don't by anything basedz on a concept we have never heard of so far. So yes, she might use inverted weaves to channel on the OR, but who knows what would happen when 2 weaves are applied at once on that thing.

[Sharaman]

Swear ahead on the oath rod to only speak words that are untrue. (I know this is a little similar to something posted earlier, but this has a bit different wording that is simpler and I think would work better for oath-evasion.) Now when you speak the Oaths in front of the AS, you are lying. Would the rod bind you to the words you spoke in front of the AS, or to the intent of the words you spoke (intent here being the opposite of the three oaths since you are lying - basically, swearing to lie, to make weapons using the power, and to use the power as a weapon)? I'm not entirely convinced if this would work, but it might since the oaths seem to depend a lot on your own mentality - what you believe falls in and out of the oath. But it would be kind of cool if it did work. And the White Ajah might be able to figure it out because it resembles a pretty common logic puzzle (e.g. there are two people, one only speaks lies, the other truth, what should you ask to tell which is which?)

 

Just for kicks.

Messi takes oath 00) Swears only to speak words that are untrue

Then she comes to the ceremony

0) Forswears all oaths - does this work ??

Is she still bound by 00?

If so, she still has to speak only untrue words

She retakes 1,2,3

1) reinforces the "untrue" of 00

2) She can only make weapons of power if they are to used by men to kill men - no problem

3) She can only use the OP to kill non Darkfriends and Shadowspawn

She hands over the rod

Says "I am not BA" and keels over choking because she isn't BA :)

 

 

[Random Man]

Sorry, my statement was a bit too harsh.

I don't by anything basedz on a concept we have never heard of so far. So yes, she might use inverted weaves to channel on the OR, but who knows what would happen when 2 weaves are applied at once on that thing.

 

Oh, I get it. You're talking about the theory posted way earlier about using an inverted counter-weave on the Oath Rod simultaneously while swearing on it to negate its effects. I completely agree that we haven't seen anything similar to that, which makes it complicated and far-fetched. Thanks for clarifying. In the recorder theory, Mesaana might have used an inverted weave, but it wouldn't have had anything to do with the Oath Rod itself, but would only be employed to dupe the observing Aes Sedai into thinking she'd actually sworn the Three Oaths.

 

You are absolutely correct in saying that any theory should first and foremost be based in what we already know to be possible and as simple as possible. Recorder theory fits all of these thus far except for that we don't know if an observing Aes Sedai would see anything difference between an activated Oath Rod with an actual sworn oath or an activated oath rod without a sworn oath. I admit this is the only iffy part of the theory because if an observer could see the difference, Mesaana would have to counter that somehow for her illusion to hold up. We should see if Brandon would be willing to clarify.

[Random Man]

Just for kicks.

Messi takes oath 00) Swears only to speak words that are untrue

Then she comes to the ceremony

0) Forswears all oaths - does this work ??

Is she still bound by 00?

If so, she still has to speak only untrue words

She retakes 1,2,3

1) reinforces the "untrue" of 00

2) She can only make weapons of power if they are to used by men to kill men - no problem

3) She can only use the OP to kill non Darkfriends and Shadowspawn

She hands over the rod

Says "I am not BA" and keels over choking because she isn't BA :)

 

Funny. I also wouldn't mind seeing "the dilemma of Mesaana" in which she, bound to say only untrue words, is forced to lie every time she opens her mouth but has to make it seem like it isn't a lie so her cover isn't blown. Highly implausible, but still...

 

Laras: Would you like the fish and apple cobbler today?

Mesaana: No. (Reaches for the tray)

Laras: So you're going to take it anyway?

Mesaana: I'm not going to take...erm...a bite of it.

Laras: I won't stand for wasted food, even from an Aes Sedai! (reaches for wooden spoon)

Mesaana: Er...ah...I'm going to take it to feed my cat.

Laras: I didn't know there were cats in the White Tower. I have really sensitive cat allergies.

Mesaana: Me, too!

Laras: So why do you have a cat, then?

Mesaana: Um...did you think I said cat? I meant...um...erm...(snatches tray and runs off)

Laras (to herself): Something just isn't right with that one.