A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Dreamwalker]

was under the impression that the fact she still lives now was a direct result of being caught in the sealing of the bore. They certainly feel time, Aginor and Balthamel told us that much.

So was I. I don't think the DO could grant immortality in the same body. Channelers live for hundreds of years and when your body is ready to give out the DO gives you a new one.

To suggest she's immortal because her soul would be transmigrated is also not that great an argument, because the Dark One is not likely to rescue one of his Chosen that was stupid enough to wield a binding rod without a trick up her sleeve.

I think unless she betrays him he would. I mean the DO does not have that many AOL followers left and even if they are bungling idiots they still know more than third agers. All he would have to do is mind trap her like some other bungling idiot forsaken. This is getting away from my point that she would not want to be bound. How much life does she have left in this body? Would she want to risk finding out the hard way? I don't think so. Not at the risk of dying and maybe waking up in another body with a mind trap on her.   

 

It shouldn't matter, since she could just remove the oaths later, thereby not shortening her life span. I think she could do this either with the Oath Rod, another binder, a T'A'R binder, or have the DO remove it.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

It shouldn't matter, since she could just remove the oaths later, thereby not shortening her life span. I think she could do this either with the Oath Rod, another binder, a T'A'R binder, or have the DO remove it.

 

Doesn't the Forsakens' links to the Dark One (those black lines Rand keeps severing) make them immortal?  Binding wouldn't shorten Messana's lifespan because she doesn't age anymore.

[Casabamelon]

Why would someone who turned to the dark side specifically to avoid a binder then turn around and allow a binder to be put on her while she is surrounded by people who would kill her the instant they knew who she really was?

[Dreamwalker]

Why would someone who turned to the dark side specifically to avoid a binder then turn around and allow a binder to be put on her while she is surrounded by people who would kill her the instant they knew who she really was?

 

I'm pretty sure Semirhage was the one who went over to avoid binding.

[Sharaman]

Indeed Semirhage and Balty were the two who were under threat of binding.

 

[yoniy0]

I'm actually surprised to learn some of you guys don't think the Forsaken are immortal. We know from many sources that they were promised immortality, but I guess I just assumed that it was granted. Indeed, even Ishamael probably hasn't lived out his original life span when he was killed.

Still, Aginor and Balthamen did probably age beyond the point most people remain alive even in their prison, so unless they were made immortal I don't know how they stayed alive. That isn't proof, but strong evidence nonetheless.

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm actually surprised to learn some of you guys don't think the Forsaken are immortal. We know from many sources that they were promised immortality, but I guess I just assumed that it was granted. Indeed, even Ishamael probably hasn't lived out his original life span when he was killed.

Still, Aginor and Balthamen did probably age beyond the point most people remain alive even in their prison, so unless they were made immortal I don't know how they stayed alive. That isn't proof, but strong evidence nonetheless.

 

Also, in Asmodean's death scene, he was going on about how he'd lost immortality when Rand severed his connection to the Dark One.  That means he was immortal when it happened.

 

[MikeRiley]

Or it just means he either believed he was immortal or he still believed the Dark One was going to win and his Chosen would live forever under him. Kind of like the whole darkfriend thing, they believe the Dark One will grant them immortality, but it doesn't work like that.

[Tom Sawyer]

Or it just means he either believed he was immortal or he still believed the Dark One was going to win and his Chosen would live forever under him. Kind of like the whole darkfriend thing, they believe the Dark One will grant them immortality, but it doesn't work like that.

 

Over the course of The Great Hunt, Ishamael slowly heals from the damage Rand did to him in the Eye of the World and he'd lived 3000 years without aging a day prior to that.  I think it's safe to say that the DO's link actually gives them immortality.  I agree with you that the vast majority of Darkfriends are idiots for thinking they'll get it themselves, the same way that the vast majority of high school football players are idiots for thinking they'll ever get an NFL contract.  That doesn't change the fact that the cream of the crop do actually make it into the NFL, though.  Same with the DFs - the cream of the crop do actually get immortality (until the DO rips the pattern apart and kills them along with everyone else).

 

[Morsker]

RJ told us outright that the Forsaken aren't immortal. It surprised me so much that I suspected he changed his mind and retconned it, but then I looked in the glossary. My old copy of TGH says the Forsaken went over for the "promise of immortality", so I suppose it's always been that way. It's just one of many things in WoT that's only clear from forums and interviews, and is hopelessly vague in the books themselves.

[yoniy0]

Yes, you're right. I didn't realize until now. But he contradicted himself in the same interview, saying that once the saa reach the point where your eyes seem like caverns of fire you're very close to death unless you're granted immortality. Well, Ishamael was alive and kicking at the beginning of the series, so what's up with that?

Interestingly enough, he also said in that same interview that a BFed person can't be reborn, in contradiction to later statements by BS (and I think RJ himself).

[Casabamelon]

Indeed Semirhage and Balty were the two who were under threat of binding.

 

Dangit.

 

Can I just keep shouting that she was anyway until you all give up and I claim victory?

[mb]

It is possible for female channelers to hide their ability to channel. Is it possible to channel while doing this? If so maybe thats how Mesaana got rounnd it.

I would rule out any channeling method since she was probably shielded.

 

[Durinax]

It is possible for female channelers to hide their ability to channel. Is it possible to channel while doing this? If so maybe thats how Mesaana got rounnd it.

I would rule out any channeling method since she was probably shielded.

 

anything to support that sisters where to be shielded during the process

[mb]

It is possible for female channelers to hide their ability to channel. Is it possible to channel while doing this? If so maybe thats how Mesaana got rounnd it.

I would rule out any channeling method since she was probably shielded.

anything to support that sisters where to be shielded during the process

Sheriam & Moria became shielded.

 

Though if the other Aes Sedia were not, channeling (even when masking ability) might have raised suspicions; Egwene might have learned about it from Nynaeve/Elayne and/or Moghedien.

 

[Sharaman]

Egwene knows about complete masking - she had it demonstrated by Moggy/ Elayne/ Nyn.

We've seen Mesaana do this, (channel while completely masked) when she teaches Alviarin the Travel weave.

Apart from the Chosen (Lanfear, Mesaana and maybe Dashiva) nobody seems to know about partial masking.

(Maybe LTT-RaT know this from their joint memories)

Sheriam and Moria did not retake the OR oath.

But Galina did take it, while shielded.

Therava channeled the spirit for her oath of obedience.

 

[makaveli422]

Ok So unless she is not an AS or has left the tower, she would have to take the oath. And everybody that's left has passed the test. She couldn't use channeling to pass, at least directly, that leaves she doesn't believe she is a DF or some kind of memory suppression. Maybe block some memories you don't want with spirit? Then she could say I'm not BA or whatever. Or do you guys think that is not possible like healing yourself? I personally think it is as simple as what you believe the truth to be and Messy along with the rest of the Forsaken think they are not even human anymore. So she could truthfully say about herself that she is not a DF or BA. Even though the rest of us know it is a bunch of bs. IIRC there have been examples of this where a sister stated something to be true even though it was not but because she belived it was she could say it.

[Sharaman]

What she can say if she is held to the "no word that is not true" oath wll have to be very carefully worded. Since BS has been vague on the exact wording of what the re-oathed AS swear, she may be able to pass this. Especially if she's not BA and Egwene considers a declaration of "I am not BA" acceptable. She may, as various people have pointed out, also be able to get away with "I am not a Friend of the Dark" for similar reasons. Obviously the AS are not swearing "I am not a Forsaken" because BA members could say that without any problems.

But does this semantic twisting fulfil BS's statement?

 

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

Given the context, - he made his statement about beating the rod in response to a question about exactly this verbal gaming possibility, I don't think so.

 

 

[Calderis]

Seriously. I don't get why beating the first oath is sticking in everyones brain so hard. We have 30 pages of people arguing that point. That's beating a single oath. The rod itself means she wouldn't be bound to any oath, not just the spoken only. Just because we don't see how doesn't mean it's not possible. Especially considering the context of BS' answer. (TY Sharaman).

 

Look at the title of the thread. A way to evade the oaths. Not "a way to function within the oaths and not be discovered as a Forsaken." She beat it.

[Eagle Prince]

What about using some kind of voice recorder, so people are only seeing you mouth the oaths, but you're not actually swearing anything.

[mb]

What about using some kind of voice recorder, so people are only seeing you mouth the oaths, but you're not actually swearing anything.

There seems to be very few places Mesaana could have gotten such a devise without suspicion.  Hiding such a devise on body (which she would have needed to do) might also have raised suspicion.

 

[Random Man]

What about using some kind of voice recorder, so people are only seeing you mouth the oaths, but you're not actually swearing anything.

There seems to be very few places Mesaana could have gotten such a devise without suspicion.  Hiding such a devise on body (which she would have needed to do) might also have raised suspicion.

 

Wait, we know for a fact that Mesaana had a long-distance communication device of some sort because she gave one to Alviarin. Considering how many of them were in the Ebou Dar cache, I'd assume they were fairly common devices, and -- as far as ter'angreals go -- relatively easy to acquire. This could work, if you inverted your weave so one one saw you channeling into it (no Standing Flows means it needs to be activated manually) and had someone else (such as Alviarin) swear the actual oaths. Or does the device only need to be activated on one end?

 

Yes, it would take a fair amount of skill with illusion, but I don't think anyone's disputing that Mesaana is skilled in that department.

[mb]

What about using some kind of voice recorder, so people are only seeing you mouth the oaths, but you're not actually swearing anything.

There seems to be very few places Mesaana could have gotten such a devise without suspicion.  Hiding such a devise on body (which she would have needed to do) might also have raised suspicion.

Wait, we know for a fact that Mesaana had a long-distance communication device of some sort because she gave one to Alviarin. Considering how many of them were in the Ebou Dar cache, I'd assume they were fairly common devices, and -- as far as ter'angreals go -- relatively easy to acquire. This could work, if you inverted your weave so one one saw you channeling into it (no Standing Flows means it needs to be activated manually) and had someone else (such as Alviarin) swear the actual oaths. Or does the device only need to be activated on one end?

Yes, it would take a fair amount of skill with illusion, but I don't think anyone's disputing that Mesaana is skilled in that department.

Like I posted before, I would rule out channeling since she might have been shielded and/or since channeling would have raised suspicion (even when the ability is masked).

 

[Sharaman]

Hey, this sound recording is a new possibility.

 

1) Mesaana could have some sort of voice recorder (along with the comm device she gave Alviarin).

2) We've seen the WOs in the Elayne-Aviendha sorority ritual use a weave that retards sound (so that neither El/ Avi know what the other is saying until the WO lets them hear it)

3) Messi can reverse / invert weaves at will.

 

She may be able to record herself saying the oaths earlier on, prepare a reversed weave (invisible) of the kind the WO used, and let it go at the right instant so the sound is released to a lip-synch.

Complex but less speculative than most other stuff on this thread.

It also fits in that RJ has given us enough info to make it guess-able.

 

The relevant section:

WH Prologue

(Elayne's PoV)

 

"When she spoke, flows of saidar suddenly wove together between her and Aviendha, and no sound came from her tongue, or

Aviendha’s. Without thought, a part of her mind tucked away the weaves; even now, trying to learn was as

much a part of her as the color of her eyes. The weaves vanished as her lips closed.

“Aviendha is so confident, so proud. She doesn’t care what anyone thinks she should do, or be; she is

who she wants to be,” Elayne heard her own voice say, while Aviendha’s words suddenly were audible at

the same time. “Even when Elayne is so afraid that her mouth dries, her spirit will not bend. She is braver than

anyone I have ever known.”

----

She spoke the bitter truth while the weaves took her words and Aviendha’s mouth moved in grim silence, until at last, what they

had said was loosed.

=----"

 

Assuming Messi knows how to do this with reversed weaves, and the sound release can be delayed indefinitely, she may be able to beat the rod.

 

 

 

 

 

[Random Man]

Like I posted before, I would rule out channeling since she might have been shielded and/or since channeling would have raised suspicion (even when the ability is masked).

 

It's very, very unlikely she would have been shielded, and in fact she likely would have been allowed to weave the flows for herself for the Oath Rod. Why shield someone who isn't on the BA list and is volunteering to swear? Having to re-swear is distasteful enough to the Aes Sedai, but that would be adding insult to injury. The swearings in the rebel camp suggest the same -- only the sisters who refused to swear or tried to flee were shielded.

 

Now, on the subject of inverted weaves:

 

Knife of Dreams prologue, p. 91

 

Melare's eyebrows climbed again as the implications sank in. "We'll see how clear it is in the morning," she said slowly, "When they let down the half that's still iron. The rest of it stands out stiff like, well, like a bar of cuendillar. Myself, I doubt any but smaller vessels will be able to cross." She shook her head with a puzzled expression. "There was something strange, though. More than strange. We couldn't find the wilder at first. We couldn't feel her channeling. There was no glow around her, and we couldn't see her weaves. The chain just started turning white. If Arebis's Warder hadn't spotted the boat, she might have finished and gotten away."

 

"Clever Leane," Egwene muttered. For an instant, she squeezed her eyes shut. Leane had prepared everything in advance, before coming in sight of the harbor, all inverted and her ability masked.

 

Another channeler cannot see an inverted weave, so Mesaana could have let loose with her voice weave and none would be the wiser.

 

Edited to fix the quote box.