A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[StefanR]

I agree with StefanR.  And I think that people keep misunderstanding what BS said to a degree.  BS didn't say "you can fool the oath about lying" he said you can completely fool the oath rod.  This says to me that you can swear any oaths, not just about lying, and the oath rod will have no effect if you know the secret to tricking it.

 

This

[mb]

To me, to evade/fool/trick any oath (when bound to it) is to believe something that is seemingly contradictory to the oath's words.

 

oath against lying, believe something 'false'.

oath against making weapons that kill, believe that the made thing does/will not kill and/or believe that the made thing is not (will not be) a weapon.

oath against not using power as weapon except against darkfriends/shadowspawn or to defend self/warder/sister, believe that the other is a darkfriend/shadowspawn and/or believe that the other is harming self/warder/sister.

 

I posted similarly earlier in this thread.

 

[ed2funy]

I think that is where some of us disagree.

I think it is something more along the physical lines.

 

I don't see it as just telling yourself one thing after swearing another. :-\

[Elvira_Sedai]

I think Messi made an inverted flaw creating a very think gloves of air , those prevent her from physical contact with tOR . And anyone can wear a natural gloves with a same purpose  :) BS didn't say that anyone can fool all around , just fool tOR  ;)

[Paerish Swar]

BS made it pretty clear that there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod itself, not just a specific oath.  So, how does one defeat the Rod?  What is the Rod? - a ter'angreal.  So, how do we defeat a ter'angreal?

 

That very question set me on a little search through the books that I'm fairly certain has not been discussed yet in this thread.

 

How is the Oath Rod used/activated?  Quote:  "Pevara channeled a thread of Spirit to the Rod" (WH, Snow)

 

A single thread of spirit? . . . Interesting!

 

Are there any other ter'angreal which we know to use a single thread of spirit to use/activate them?  Quote:  "an iron disc . . . and a plaque no longer than her hand . . . channel a flow of Spirit into either ter'angreal, and it would take you into sleep and then into Tel'ararn'rhiod." (tSR, What Lies Hidden)

 

A few ter'angreal that require just a single thread of spirit to activate . . . what might that mean?  Quote from Elayne:  "There seemed to be one common thread in those tiny structures for ter'angreal that required channeling to work, and another for those that simply made use of the Power . . ." (LoC, A Matter of Thought)

 

Possibly related Quote from Alanna after Egwene's testing for Accepted:  "I should have stopped this when I had the chance, when I first noticed that - reverberation . . . the ter'angreal almost seemed to be trying to shut off the flow from saidar . . ." (tDR, Sealed)

 

So, we all know that when you use a ter'angreal too near another that has a very similar purpose that really bad things can happen.  But, what if you use a ter'angreal too near another that doesn't have a similar purpose, but has that common thread that Elayne describes - the structures that require channeling to make them work, especially if they both require the exact same flow/thread to activate them?

 

Maybe they end up canceling each other out?!?

 

Why is this important?  We know that Sheriam had just stolen all the dream ter'angreal from the rebels within 48 hours of the Black Ajah purge in the White Tower.  She presumably delivered those ter'angreal to Mesaana as directed, which means that Mesaana had direct access to them.  And, Yes . . . the original iron disc and plaque were among those ter'angreal!

 

Here's my theory for directly defeating the Oath Rod itself:  Mesaana has the original iron disc or plaque hidden away on her person, like stuffed down her blouse or something.  Somehow the two ter'angreal interfere with each other in a way that renders them both useless.  Maybe if she channeled a flow of spirit between the two ter'angreal such an interference could happen?  Maybe she wove two threads and one of the threads of spirit was inverted? 

 

I don't fully understand the exact process which Mesaana could use to nullify the ability of the Oath Rod, but I think she could figure it out since there appears to possibly be a precedent for such processes existing.

 

I especially like this theory because it creates a "trail of bread crumbs" by which Egwene can figure out who Mesaana is posing as in the WT.  Egwene has some experience with ter'angreal interfering with each other, she has some experience with dream ter'angreal specifically, and she is already the WT's only Dreamer.  Also, any other questions Egwene may have about the nature of ter'angreal can easily be answered by her confidant, Elayne the queen of all things ter'angreal.

 

She has the experience and tools to follow the trails and make all the connections that would illuminate Mesaana's method for evading the Oath Rod.  Once she connects evading the Oath Rod with the stolen dream ter'angreal she will come upon her primary lead.  All she has to do from there is hop into Tel'aran'rhiod and use NEED to search for the stolen items.  Whoever's room it is that she finds the items in TAR, is the room of the sister that Mesaana is impersonating.

 

   

[Sharaman]

@Paerish Swar - lovely! You've come up with a neat logical way to beat the rod. Also as you said, Egwene may have enough info to puzzle out how this could be done.

I can think of a few issues.

1) The dream ter'angreal may actually knock Messi out (or KO some other sister who is nearby) even though the spirit is not being channeled directly into the Dream thing.

2) The resonance/ reverbation effect may be noticeable to other channelers.

 

But it's at least as good a try as any that's been speculated about and it is an entirely new line of thought.

 

[Paerish Swar]

Sharaman - I think the two issues you bring up are completely on the money and they do make the theory itself a little tough to swallow, and I have to say that I did consider some of those problems myself.  That's why I admitted that I don't really understand the exact process by which Mesaana could make the theory work.

 

But, here are a couple more thoughts on the topic that might tighten up this theory.

 

We know that really bad and dangerous things happen when two ter'angreal that have the SAME or similar purpose are really close to each other and one or both are activated.  We do NOT know what happens when two ter'angreal that have completely DISSIMILAR purposes, but IDENTICAL means of activating are really close to each other and one or both are activated.

 

Now for a crazy thought.  What if ter'angreal that require the One Power to activate them have some kind of fail-safe or internal "circuit breaker" embedded into their design?  (We know that angreal have buffers for safety purposes) 

 

Imagine in the Age of Legends when there were ter'angreal all over the place.  If a channeler tried to use one of his or her ter'angreal in the vicinity of another that did something completely different, but had the same means of activation, wouldn't it be a smart safety measure to make it so that the ter'angreal you are trying to use "shuts down" while you're so near to the other one.  That way you wouldn't accidentally activate the other ter'angreal and inadvertently do something you hadn't intended.

 

Well, I know that's a little far-fetched, but what about this?

 

Since the Oath Rod and the Dream ter'angreal have such different purposes (while still maintaining some notable similarity in means of usage), perhaps the resonance/interference that occurs between them is of a much lower level of disturbance - just enough to disrupt the efficacy of the ter'angreal, but not enough to create some visibly dramatic problems.  And even if there was a certain level of discomfort for Mesaana to put herself in the middle of some ter'angreal interference, I don't think the other Aes Sedai would necessarily notice.  The process of removing all the oaths is noticeably painful, and the settling of the oaths on the body are likewise not exactly comfortable.  Whatever discomfort Mesaana might experience would be taken as a natural response to what the watching Aes Sedai assumed was occurring. 

[Sharaman]

Actually those effects are in the control of the author since this hasn;t been discussed much :)

So it can be got around.

Wouldn't be surprised if what you're suggesting is close to the money.

 

 

[seasnake]

So some think it's a psychological trick, others think it is a trick of the one power. Or perhaps there is a ter'angreal that nullifies the effect that Mesaana has on her.  Should be interesting to find out.

[Dreamwalker]

Here's my theory for directly defeating the Oath Rod itself:  Mesaana has the original iron disc or plaque hidden away on her person, like stuffed down her blouse or something.  Somehow the two ter'angreal interfere with each other in a way that renders them both useless.  Maybe if she channeled a flow of spirit between the two ter'angreal such an interference could happen?  Maybe she wove two threads and one of the threads of spirit was inverted?   

 

This is an interesting theory. However, my biggest issue with theories that require Mesaana to be channeling is that it seems like traditionally someone else besides the person swearing channels the spirit to power the Oath rod. I suppose she could have been, but most times we see someone use the oath rod (though I admit not all) someone else channels the spirit. In fact, that could be a tradition specifically because it's a caution against someone doing something with the power while swearing - many other traditions (like the bare bosoms in the ceremony where the Hall chooses and Amyrlin) seem to have started as precautionary measures. I guess we'd need to know more about the specifics of the actual reswearing Egwene had everyone do to know for sure.

[Sharaman]

No - when the AS use the rod, they usually do the channeling of spirit themselves.

The only times its been done by somebody else onscreen was Talene, Meidani and Zerah (?)(BA hunters) and Galina (Shaido), when somebody was being forced to swear an oath without their consent.

Against that, we have explicit descriptions of Egwene, Romaine, Lelaine, and by inference, hundreds of other AS doing the channeling of spirit themselves.

 

[Taura-Tierno]

I like the idea of Mesaana using another ter'angreal to cancel the effect of the OR. But if that's the case, I don't think it would depend on her channeling, just on the presence of the object. It would foolish to assume that she'd channel herself.

[mb]

My comments about belief/believing, similar thinking seems implied  when Aes Sedia 'broke' the first and third oaths in various parts of this series.

Examples::

Third Oath: Joline during that battle in Knife of Dreams.  (she believed she was in danger)

First Oath: that Black that re-sworn the Oaths.  (she believed Elaida was also a black)

 

[Swithin]

Sorry for digging up this old thread, but I just had a thought on this subject. First off, I don't mean to swat at anyone's best guess, but I really think the "avoided physical contact" theory is selling the story short - if it were that easy, the BA would have guided DF Accepted past the Oaths since forever ago. Anyway, onto the theory:

 

Ter'angreal generally do not do things with the power that a channeler could not do, even if it would require the most powerful and precise channeler on their best day ever, or even a circle. Sometimes they do things that seemingly require more power than is channeled into them, and channelers usually can't see any weaves from using ter'angreal, but two things remain: we have never seen a ter'angreal produce an effect that explicitly could not be channeled by hand, and ter'angreal require the same flows to be channeled into them that the intended effect would require if channeled unaided (consider the Bowl of Winds.)

 

This is not to say that that's all ter'angreal can do: I can think of two other functions that ter'angreal perform which probably lie outside the abilities of most channelers, but neither of these require the ter'angreal to be powered by flows. One is to emulate a Talent (such as the dream ring, and we know this functions somehow parallel to the Power) and the other is to warp space, time, and the OP (vacuoles, the Guardians, the twisted doors, etc.)

 

So, the question is: which of these methods does the Oath Rod use? It doesn't emulate a Talent, and it doesn't manipulate 'fields' (for lack of a better word.) It channels Spirit to achieve an effect that is very similar to Compulsion. As an *angreal, it can also amplify the amount of Spirit poured into it, so we don't know for sure how much Power is actually used in the process, but if this theory plays out (follow me here for a second) we have a fairly good profile for how to get out of the Oaths.

 

What is different between the Binder effect and Compulsion? Four things. One is the agelessness. Two is the relative reduced lifespan. Three is the fact that it only works on a channeler, and dissipates instantly if that channeler is severed or stilled. Fourth is that the effects are not only reversible, they're instantly dismissable. These are huge clues to what I think is going on.

 

Here's my hypothesis: the Binder was originally developed as a preventative measure to ensure ethical use of the Power. We know it was used on criminals, and we know that it only works on channelers. It's like a restricted license that enforces itself for the channeling equivalent of a DUI. However, unlike straight Compulsion which is highly invasive and difficult (if not impossible) to reverse without permanent mental damage, the Binder's effect can be lifted at a future point in time - whether the offender was cleared of wrong-doing, pardoned, released on their own recognizance, or simply served their time, whatever. How does it pull this off? By not letting the effect of the Compulsion settle in, not letting it resolve - the Oath Rod channels *and ties off* inverted weaves of Compulsion, with a little something extra. That little something is how the weave attaches to the Oath swearer - the weaves connect to their "point", their ability to channel. Why like this, and not simply a tied off weave of Compulsion? I can't really come up with a great answer, but it seems to fit the profile perfectly - maybe the Oath is unnecessary if the person is severed, maybe it requires a trickle of Spirit taken unknowingly through the channeler to continue to operate.

 

The agelessness and reduced lifespan could be side-effects of always being in the state of receiving Compulsion, for which we've seen a description and it doesn't sound too pleasant a thing to do to a mind. Plus, having a parasitic weave constantly attached to your ability to channel may reduce the longevity benefits. This premise also jives with the need for channeling ability, and why the Oaths can be removed in the first place.

 

I know this is a big hypothesis, but it fits what we've read in the books quite well - and it leaves a perfectly legitimate escape route for a savvy channeler to get out of the Oaths. The Aes Sedai's mistake was not including a fourth Oath, "I will not attempt to remove my Oaths, nor allow or enable another to remove them from me." We already know that Aes Sedai can attempt to get rid of the Oaths (and the BA succeed,) but so far as the Third Agers know, they require the Oath Rod to do it. Well, if it's not only a one-off effect of the power (which we know it isn't, since it's conditional on the ability to channel,) then there are weaves there. Inverted weaves, of course. Delicate, mind-penetrating weaves... but weaves nonetheless.

 

The Oath Rod can be overcome by simply removing those weaves. It's probably dangerous, it's probably difficult... in fact, it probably requires the assistance of another channeler with the strength and expertise to work a "tracing" Compulsion of his/her own to ferret out where the inverted weaves are. If anyone could do it, Graendal could. And if any of the Forsaken is inquisitive enough to try it on herself, it would be Mesaana.

 

Oh snap! I thought I'd read all the posts in this thread, and just hit "reply". Scrolling down I see that Paerish Swar beat me to the punch (honestly, I just saw your post right now.) It took me a while to write all this, so I'll leave it be.

[algspkr]

I would put my money on Messaana having warded herself against the rod.

[mb]

Swithin, I doubt that the weave that the Rod does is Compulsion.  Nowhere in the series tells that any form of Compulsion tightens the skin or reduces lifespan.

I doubt Mesaana would have had opportunity to remove the Oaths since I take all were watched by at least one non-Black.  I take Mesaana was bound to the Oaths when she told she was not a Darkfriend.

 

I would put my money on Messaana having warded herself against the rod.

If such a ward exists, wards can be 'broken'; and the ward would have likely raised a 'red flag' if Mesaana made it.

 

[algspkr]

Swithin, I doubt that the weave that the Rod does is Compulsion.  Nowhere in the series tells that any form of Compulsion tightens the skin or reduces lifespan.

I doubt Mesaana would have had opportunity to remove the Oaths since I take all were watched by at least one non-Black.  I take Mesaana was bound to the Oaths when she told she was not a Darkfriend.

 

I would put my money on Messaana having warded herself against the rod.

If such a ward exists, wards can be 'broken'; and the ward would have likely raised a 'red flag' if Mesaana made it.

 

 

If she knows it's coming (and she almost certainly did as the blacks in the Tower fled) she could have woven it before hand and inverted it.  The others do not know it is possible and so from their point of view there is no need to look for it.

[Sharaman]

Well, this ward could work perhaps.

The oath rod's action as such isn't visible. To a channeler who's watching, what you see is somebody holding the rod and a thread of spirit channelled into the end (not necessarily by the same person) while they babble whatever.

Whatever effect the Rod has, is felt by the person holding it but not visible to an observer.

(Must be settling straight into the skin from the hand?)

So if there's such a ward, and it is inverted, it may work.

 

But I suspect there isn't such a ward for a couple of reasons.

One) If such a ward exists, Semirhage and Balthamiel didn't know of it. They were both very smart channellers from the AoL.

Two) Brandon's statement doesn't make literary sense - readers cannot be expected to know about a ward that has never been mentioned or hinted at, yet BS seems to be saying that there is a way to beat the Rod, which readers should be able to work out on the basis of the evidence they do have.

 

[algspkr]

Well, this ward could work perhaps.

The oath rod's action as such isn't visible. To a channeler who's watching, what you see is somebody holding the rod and a thread of spirit channelled into the end (not necessarily by the same person) while they babble whatever.

Whatever effect the Rod has, is felt by the person holding it but not visible to an observer.

(Must be settling straight into the skin from the hand?)

So if there's such a ward, and it is inverted, it may work.

 

But I suspect there isn't such a ward for a couple of reasons.

One) If such a ward exists, Semirhage and Balthamiel didn't know of it. They were both very smart channellers from the AoL.

Two) Brandon's statement doesn't make literary sense - readers cannot be expected to know about a ward that has never been mentioned or hinted at, yet BS seems to be saying that there is a way to beat the Rod, which readers should be able to work out on the basis of the evidence they do have.

 

What evidence is there that Balthamiel did not know the ward?  And the only evidence for Semirhage's ignorance that I know of was her refusal to use the rod which could also suggest that they checked for such a ward in the AoL before applying the oath.

 

As for Brandon's statement we have evidence of wards doing everything else why not this too?

[Sharaman]

Well, Balthamiel was held by the oath rod - he joined GLoD to be freed from it. Semi ran to GLoD in order to escape it also.

No mention in their PoVs that they knew of a way to beat it.Similarly no such mention in Sammy's conversations with Graendal or PoV when he hands it to the Shaido.

Yes, it could be every AoL-ite channeler knew of such a ward and also knew that they would be under supervision that prevented using the ward. In that case, Egwene will need an input from LTT.

Brandon's statement: Makes it seem that there's data already in the books that readers can use to figure out how Messi beat the rod. Introducing a new, never-mentioned ward would be like introducing a totally new character as the perpetrator in a murder mystery - the reader cannot be expected to solve the puzzle.

 

 

 

[thewalrus777]

Well, Balthamiel was held by the oath rod - he joined GLoD to be freed from it. Semi ran to GLoD in order to escape it also.

No mention in their PoVs that they knew of a way to beat it.Similarly no such mention in Sammy's conversations with Graendal or PoV when he hands it to the Shaido.

Yes, it could be every AoL-ite channeler knew of such a ward and also knew that they would be under supervision that prevented using the ward. In that case, Egwene will need an input from LTT.

Brandon's statement: Makes it seem that there's data already in the books that readers can use to figure out how Messi beat the rod. Introducing a new, never-mentioned ward would be like introducing a totally new character as the perpetrator in a murder mystery - the reader cannot be expected to solve the puzzle.

 

 

 

 

Balthamel was never bound by the OP with the rod. He came exceedingly close though. But I also agree with you on the introduction of an unknown ward that would circumvent the Oaths. It has to be something that has already been introduced to us the readers. Something that we sould be able to piece together if the right questions are asked.

[Sharaman]

I seem to remember a reference that Balthamiel was bound to the rod after getting drunk and channeling to attack someone. Or maybe cheating at gambling.

But I could be wrong. Maybe as you say, he was just under threat.

 

[thewalrus777]

I seem to remember a reference that Balthamiel was bound to the rod after getting drunk and channeling to attack someone. Or maybe cheating at gambling.

But I could be wrong. Maybe as you say, he was just under threat.

 

 

Yeah in the BWB he was described as having a vile temper and was nearly bound against violence for it. He came close on a few occasions where he absolutely could not control his rage. He was always the type that liked hanging out with the rougher side of society. Criminals especially. He joined the DO's cause because of his vanity. The DO offered him immortality and th ability to never age. But yeah he was never bound.

[Aquarius]

Sorry to interfere in this debate (very interesting info about Balthamel I had no clues about whatsoever) but...

 

What is the basis for all this weird theories about using weaves to "beat the OR". I can understand the joy of imagining wonderfull ways to do that, and indeed, most if this thread is much fun to read. But I cannot see a more efficient and simplier way than "I beleive I'm not Darkfriend, I believe I'm not BA, so I can say it out loud".

 

Did Brandon say somewhere that (for exemple) Messaana could lie just after taking the Oaths ? That she didn't have to "remove" the oaths afterwards ? (I'm not convinced that she's posing as an Aes Sedai myself, an Accepted would be much more convenient).

[Casabamelon]

Sorry to interfere in this debate (very interesting info about Balthamel I had no clues about whatsoever) but...

 

What is the basis for all this weird theories about using weaves to "beat the OR". I can understand the joy of imagining wonderfull ways to do that, and indeed, most if this thread is much fun to read. But I cannot see a more efficient and simplier way than "I beleive I'm not Darkfriend, I believe I'm not BA, so I can say it out loud".

 

Did Brandon say somewhere that (for exemple) Messaana could lie just after taking the Oaths ? That she didn't have to "remove" the oaths afterwards ? (I'm not convinced that she's posing as an Aes Sedai myself, an Accepted would be much more convenient).

 

 

This is the genesis of the discussion (from Page 1), emphasis mine:

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

 

What some (but not all) people are inferring from this line is that there is both a way to defeat the "I'm not a darkfriend" swearing, but also a way to defeat the oath rod itself, i.e. never have a sworn oath apply, even though you are holding the rod, someone is channeling spirit into the rod, and you swear an oath.

 

The implication is that Brandon acknowledges that is a way to weasel around the wording of the swearing, but then immediately says to look for something else, dealing with the rod itself.

 

P.S. You should read through the Mesaana thread, it has a lot of good info, including many reasons why she's posing as A.S.