Moraine and The Tower of Ghenjei

[ed2funy]

What if Moiraine comes out stronger?

Just a thought . :D

[WWWwombat]

Brandon pointedly did not rule out Lanfear ever being "under any shenanigans," so I think it's very possible she was boosted.  The 'finns need not have done it though.

[rubbernilly]

True, but...

 

...well, let's do it this way: Assuming she was enhanced, her statement in WH, I think, must refer to her knowledge of the upper limit of a woman. That means that she not only was enhanced, it means she obtained that knowledge at the same time. There are only a few sources for that sort of knowledge that I can think of:

 

1) the DO

2) the Finn

3) some sort of research on her part, possibly having to do with altering herself with the TP.

 

Starting with the last option, some research on her part explains why it might be only her that was so augmented, as she isn't likely to share the key to augmenting one's own power with everyone else. Counting against this possibility is the likelihood that the DO would command her to share the secret with other Chosen so that he could have more powerful servants... and also the absolute remote possibility that she would (1) find the way to do this and (2) know that what was possibly only her upper limit was in truth the limit of any woman. We're talking trace chances here... a few parts per billion.

 

Next, the DO... if he could do this, you'd expect that more of his servants would have been enhanced. For certain Ishamael. He would be a good source of knowledge regarding potential power, but it's just too powerful (and messy) of a mechanic for the DO to be able to trump the inborn abilities of channelers by raising his followers.

 

The Finn, on the other hand, satisfy both the rarity of the augmentation and the the sourcing of the knowledge. It would be rare for someone to figure out that they could get augmented on the other side of the ter'angreal doorway, and possibly rarer still that they would have the brains, skill, and cojones to actually make the deal and pay the price bargained for (or to have the strength to cheat the Finn out of your side of the bargain), so Mierin could easily have been the only one.

 

I'm open to other possibilities, I just don't see them.

[shinerfan]

Or, as has been stated earlier, it was just the hubris of believing that since she was the most powerful woman in the AoL, she was therefore the most powerful woman that could ever exist. That fits just as well.

[rubbernilly]

You mean if she were enhanced that it could still be hubris that caused her to say that? I suppose, but I'd personally put that possibility at less likely than her researching and finding the way to augment herself. Very unlikely, IMO.

[Nightstrike]

There's no reason to assume she's been enhanced. LTT should know about it. It should be of utmost interest for everybody to talk about it. Maybe enhance themselves.

 

There's no reason to assume it's possible to become enhanced.

 

 

[rubbernilly]

*sigh*

 

I'm leaving open the possibility that she was not enhanced, though I believe her to have been.

 

What I'm arguing right now is from the construct of *if* she was enhanced, then what conclusions can we draw? (Like who did it, and what does she know.)

 

To your point, I doubt LTT would have known about it if she did it after they had their fling. I believe that there is a quote somewhere that she went around most of the time in the AOL hiding her strength. That is a perfect reason for no one to notice her enhancement, and her enhancement is a perfect reason for her to hide her strength. It all works.

 

I agree that others might want to enhance themselves if they could understand what she did, but I'm not sure that they would be so eager to pay whatever price she paid, or to cheat the Finn (if that's what she did to get *out* of paying). But as it is, no one knows that's what she did.

 

[rubbernilly]

Another point against LTT knowing what Mierin had done (in getting herself enhanced) would be that men can't pronounce a woman's strength in the way that women can. He'd have no real indication (short of an all out contest of strength) to understand how strong she'd become.

[Nightstrike]

Female Aes Sedai, including the Forsaken, would know. Same goes for men in circles.

[Nightstrike]

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book why there is a decrease in Power but not a significant decrease?

Brandon: Yes.

Matt: Ok, so that being said there are some theories out there that in the Age of Legends, at one point, Lanfear might have…

Brandon: ...let’s just say I have not said that Lanfear and Cyndane are the same person.

Matt: Oh, absolutely, I’m jumping to this other Forsaken that we are talking about…

Brandon: …this other completely different person…Uh huh…

Matt: …so Lanfear, the theory goes, that maybe she was accentuated from a beauty and/or Power perspective by going to the 'Finnland previously.

Brandon: Okay.

Matt: Would the 'Finns have the ability to accentuate someone’s beauty and/or quantity or access to the One Power through their own capabilities and talents?

Brandon: Yes, but it might involve third party ter’angreal, angreal, this sort of thing.

Matt: So, they don’t have power to affect the soul’s capability of increasing its total channeling?

Brandon: Certainly not permanently; as far I understand, that is outside the realm of their ability.Matt: From a beauty perspective can they affect the outer body of some individual?

Brandon: I would say that, yes they can, but they may have to be using some type of ter’angreal or…

Matt: …some item of Power?

Brandon: Some item of Power, something like that…of which they have great stores…

[what???]

Matt: Really?  Heh, so the obvious question, where did the 'Finns get great stores of ter’angreal, angreal, and is that part of the Pact they made?

Brandon: RAFO…but if you just think about it, we don’t even have to go to the notes for this if you think about it logically, we know of them providing certain items of Power to certain individuals that they were able to match very nicely with certain requests very easily. If you run the statistics on that, it's either a huge coincidence or they have very many to choose from.

[rubbernilly]

From your quote of BS:

 

Certainly not permanently

.

 

And, indeed, it was not permanent, was it? As Cyndane, it has returned to the previous level.

 

...that is, of course, if she was augmented to begin with. Since we are arguing the possibility of that, let me point out that what BS said completely leaves the possibility open.

 

As for other women detecting her... like I said I thought there was a quote that indicated that she went around in the AoL always masking her ability. Certainly that is a possibility, even if I can't find that quote. And for circles... who's to say how many circles she participated in?

 

All I'm saying is that there exists the possibility, and BS did nothing to discount that possibility.

[Nightstrike]

Demandred was sure Cyndane was Lanfear, until Mesaana told him she was weaker than Lanfear. Noone seems to make the connection. Which should mean that they have no reason to do so.

[rubbernilly]

I'm not sure what you're arguing here...

 

Demandred was sure Cyndane was Lanfear, until Mesaana told him she was weaker than Lanfear. Noone seems to make the connection. Which should mean that they have no reason to do so.

 

I think that you're saying that because they stopped assuming Cyndane was Lanfear we can know that they are discounting the possibility of her having been diminished.

 

...but that line of argument only works if you think that they would have known that she was enhanced when she was enhanced (and as I've pointed out, there are plenty of ways that she could have--and likely did--hide her augmentation). You talk about them not making the "connection." What do they have to connect to if they don't already know that she had been enhanced. They can only connect the fact that she's been diminished to her original power if they knew that she had been enhanced above that original power in the first place. But...

 

That line of argument becomes a mess, however, because if they *had* known about her enhancement, in that scene they would have at least considered that it was still Lanfear, only now returnd to her previous level. So they can't have known, and I don't know how else your argument could make sense.

 

So you've left me confused.

 

I don't know what quoting that scene gets you except for more evidence that they never would have known about her enhancement when it happened... and that's what I've been saying for several posts now.

 

Can you elaborate?

[Nightstrike]

I'm saying they should know, since they were all top level channelers. Famous since forever and ever. Had she been enhanced, then everybody would know. Yes, everybody. Graendal, Demandred, Mesaana, Lews Therin... Every single one. 

 

I'm wondering about this:

Matt: So, we will understand then in the next book why there is a decrease in Power but not a significant decrease?

Brandon: Yes.

How is it about to become clear to the readers? Someone else getting Healed?

 

 

[Nightstrike]

The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed, among women. Where had the Spider found a girl so much stronger than she, and why was she traveling with her? Moghedien had always been jealous of anyone with more strength.

"The girl was as strong as it was possible to be, exactly as strong as Lanfear was before her enhancement. Maybe she's Lanfear all over again."

[rubbernilly]

I see... you accept this as your 'given':

I'm saying they should know, since they were all top level channelers. Famous since forever and ever. Had she been enhanced, then everybody would know. Yes, everybody. Graendal, Demandred, Mesaana, Lews Therin... Every single one.

 

I dispute that point out of the gate. Now, I'm not saying that I *know* what happened, but as you seem to using an indirect argument (arguing for the impossibility of the contrary), I just have to present one case where the top level channelers would not know that Mierin had been enhanced. One case where it is plausible that they would not know about her, and suddenly the contrary of your argument is not so impossible. So...

 

One option (the one that I favor), would have her visiting the Finn and wishing to be as strong as a woman can be (or some other wish which would have that effect). Upon her return to Randland and *before* anyone saw her, she masked her newly enhanced ability. Either she had been masking it even before that point or she began only in that moment, but once masked no one would know that she had been enhanced.

 

The girl was stronger in the One Power than she herself! Even in her own Age, that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed, among women. Where had the Spider found a girl so much stronger than she, and why was she traveling with her? Moghedien had always been jealous of anyone with more strength.

"The girl was as strong as it was possible to be, exactly as strong as Lanfear was before her enhancement. Maybe she's Lanfear all over again."

 

Your rewrite, again, assumes that Graendal would know about Lanfear.

 

Look, I'm not saying I can't be wrong. When the next book comes out (yes, I think that Moiraine will be rescued in the next book and that will be the catalyst that BS references in how we will know more about why Lanfear was slightly reduced)... when that book comes out, I could very well be wrong about any of the details of her enhancement or even about my belief that she *was* enhanced, at all. But in the meantime, I will not concede that the idea is not at least plausible/possible. It is.

[Nightstrike]

One option (the one that I favor), would have her visiting the Finn and wishing to be as strong as a woman can be (or some other wish which would have that effect). Upon her return to Randland and *before* anyone saw her, she masked her newly enhanced ability. Either she had been masking it even before that point or she began only in that moment, but once masked no one would know that she had been enhanced.

That would mean that she would be exactly as strong as Lanfear used to be, in the eyes of the rest of the world. No apparent reduction in strenght for them to notice.

 

It would also mean that she used to be able to do more than LTT, since RJ said the strongest possible woman could do just about anything that the strongest possible man could do. Meaning, Lanfear would have wiped the floor with all of them.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

I believe we have 3 possible explanations. She could have been burned out and then Healed by a woman, or she could be Healed by the DO, or she could have been Healed by a man. If she was Healed by a man, then she must have transferred some of her strenght to Moiraine when the angreal was clawed away. Burned out and then Healed by a woman is the most likely scenario, IMO. It would mean that the loss of strength is a fixed amount. Not a percentage.

 

 

(Though Lanfear was burned out and Siuan was stilled, I doubt that could explain the difference in lost percentage. Would "a greater loss" result in "a better Healing"? Would seem odd to me.)

 

 

[shinerfan]

I believe we have 3 possible explanations. She could have been burned out and then Healed by a woman, or she could be Healed by the DO, or she could have been Healed by a man. If she was Healed by a man, then she must have transferred some of her strenght to Moiraine when the angreal was clawed away. Burned out and then Healed by a woman is the most likely scenario, IMO. It would mean that the loss of strength is a fixed amount. Not a percentage.

 

 

(Though Lanfear was burned out and Siuan was stilled, I doubt that could explain the difference in lost percentage. Would "a greater loss" result in "a better Healing"? Would seem odd to me.)

 

 

Now the question arises of whether healing a stilled/burned out channeler was known in the AoL. Moggy said it was not but is there any reason to believe her? When Nynaeve first healed Logain, Siuan, and Leane, she was really just fumbling through. Perhaps the Forsaken or DO can perform this more effectively?

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

 

 

 

Now the question arises of whether healing a stilled/burned out channeler was known in the AoL. Moggy said it was not but is there any reason to believe her? When Nynaeve first healed Logain, Siuan, and Leane, she was really just fumbling through. Perhaps the Forsaken or DO can perform this more effectively?

 

 

 

 

We have a POV from Moridin in TPOD confirming what Moggy said. And while the forsaken in general are lying liars who lies, they usually do not lie to themselves.

[rubbernilly]

One option (the one that I favor), would have her visiting the Finn and wishing to be as strong as a woman can be (or some other wish which would have that effect). Upon her return to Randland and *before* anyone saw her, she masked her newly enhanced ability. Either she had been masking it even before that point or she began only in that moment, but once masked no one would know that she had been enhanced.

That would mean that she would be exactly as strong as Lanfear used to be, in the eyes of the rest of the world. No apparent reduction in strenght for them to notice.

 

OK, now I understand. You have a good point: in order for the other Forsaken to know that Lanfear was of a particular strength (and that Cyndane is of less), they would have had to have sensed her strength during a time that I would call post-enhancement. That would argue against Lanfear hiding her strength completely after getting enhanced.

 

Hmm, so maybe what happened to her (with the Finn) increased not her power, but her potential... ie, it extended her glide-slope of development so that what used to be her upper limit was now just a marker on th path to a higher degree of strength. That might have been something that would have subtle enough to miss.

 

...Or it could have been that the other Forsaken know that she was enhanced, but they're just unwilling to pay whatever price she paid. Even knowing that she had been enhanced, they might not know that such a thing could be undone, so they would not necessarily suspect Cyndane is still Lanfear once they know that her strength is slightly less than what they would expect.

 

It would also mean that she used to be able to do more than LTT, since RJ said the strongest possible woman could do just about anything that the strongest possible man could do. Meaning, Lanfear would have wiped the floor with all of them.

 

Well, I'd put LTT pretty near the top of what is possible for men. He might not have been maxed out, but I see that as not really different from the space at the top of a jar that you fill before you put the lid on. It might not be filled up with no air at the top, but it's near enough so as not to matter. Perhaps she could have wiped the floor with any of them individually, but she always had to worry that they might team up against her.

 

:) I'll admit that I will be disappointed if it turns out that she was not enhanced. :)

[greenman]

This thread rules.

[JScott]

The only other thing we know can sever a bond is death, and we know Moiraine is not dead.

 

 

    How do we know that Moiraine is not dead?  What is the evidence?

[Nightstrike]

Min

[ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 543]

RAND: "He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..."

 

[ACOS: 35, Into the Woods, 546]

MOIRAINE: "it was not as if she had really expected Moiraine to turn up alive. Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."

 

Egwene

while Thom Merrilin put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.

 

[JScott]

    None of the above is evidence, though.  It's speculation.  Thom could be pulling that stone out of the fire after they realize that Moiraine is dead, and he thinks taking it is significant in some way; or it indicates that they were on the trail to finding her and Moiraine's captors are toying with her rescuers; or Egwene misinterpreted an early Dream she had; or, well, you get the idea. 

   

    Let's not mistake speculation for evidence.  Rand thinks what he does (above reference) because Min thinks what she does, and tells Rand about it.  You can't use both as points of proof.

 

    Now, I will admit that Moiraine's rescue seems to be panning out, and is being set up fairly consistently.  Also I have not read The Gathering Storm , and have heard that there is a spoiler concerning the possibility of Min being capable of being wrong in a viewing, so everything said about Moiraine's rescue could be true.  I'll find out soon.  But until then....