How Will Rand Defeat the Dark One? (Full Spoilers)

[rubbernilly]

All this relies on Fain being there at the right moment, which would a) be in his nature, as he wants to be the one to kill Rand and Rand might just die there at the Dark Ones hands, 2) be realistic for Rand to attract at that time, being the Ta'veren as strong as he is and how important Fain might just be, and d) work well because Fain has been to Shayol Ghul before and has beef with the Dark One as much as Rand.

 

Your complete disregard for cohesion in your point labeling is... awesome. :D

 

Made me laugh.

[OptimusPrime]

All this relies on Fain being there at the right moment, which would a) be in his nature, as he wants to be the one to kill Rand and Rand might just die there at the Dark Ones hands, 2) be realistic for Rand to attract at that time, being the Ta'veren as strong as he is and how important Fain might just be, and d) work well because Fain has been to Shayol Ghul before and has beef with the Dark One as much as Rand.

 

Your complete disregard for cohesion in your point labeling is... awesome. :D

 

Made me laugh.

 

It is a reference to Buzz in Home Alone. Remember it?

[rubbernilly]

Vaguely...

 

...but it's just as funny as a random, out of the blue, surreal thing. :)

[rane008]

I'm sure that this theory has been posted at some point before, but I believe that Rand does have to die at the Last Battle.  The DO is called the Great Lord of the Grave, seems as to me that you might just have to go to his turf to take him out.  I believe that Rand's grave is the one that Nyn is standing over in Min's vision, and she does "heal death".  (Sidenote: I also believe that Egwene is the reincarnation of the AOL Amrylin who refused to go along with LTT.  It's vital that they work together this time.  Wheel weaves, and all)  The basis for this theory is a bit obscure, so feel free to flame.  During the scene where Nyn meet with Masema in TFoH, Masema gets this holy fervor and refers to Nyn in terms that mirror biblical references to Mary.  I'm not saying that Nyn will be "Rand's Mary", but if we remember that RJ used this world as an amalgamation of our world's myths (and always made the point that stories are distorted by time; this is recurrent in the series), Rand will have to be somewhat a Jesus figure, which implies that he must die.  Nyn, on the other hand, will act as a kind of immaculate reincarnator, if you will.  Just seems to me that this is the most likely way that the course will go.

[WolfTwins]

I'm sure that this theory has been posted at some point before, but I believe that Rand does have to die at the Last Battle.  The DO is called the Great Lord of the Grave, seems as to me that you might just have to go to his turf to take him out.  .....

 

  I think likewise, to defeat - seal the DO Rand must enter the "Death domain", otherwise said he will kind of die.

 

[jemron]

I've never thought of that, but I like that idea.  It makes perfect sense.  "To die and live again"

[thewalrus777]

I'm sure that this theory has been posted at some point before, but I believe that Rand does have to die at the Last Battle.  The DO is called the Great Lord of the Grave, seems as to me that you might just have to go to his turf to take him out.  .....

 

   I think likewise, to defeat - seal the DO Rand must enter the "Death domain", otherwise said he will kind of die.

 

 

Haven't we seen this before in the Harry Potter series?

[WolfTwins]

Haven't we seen this before in the Harry Potter series?

 

  Yes, but:

  - it is the archaic savior myth which include shaman's travel, self sacrifice and acceptation of fate. We've (seen) read this in Osiris and Gilgamesh myths, in other countless legends and stories and we've (seen) read this in the Bible.

 

[thewalrus777]

Haven't we seen this before in the Harry Potter series?

 

   Yes, but:

   - it is the archaic savior myth which include shaman's travel, self sacrifice and acceptation of fate. We've (seen) read this in Osiris and Gilgamesh myths, in other countless legends and stories and we've (seen) read this in the Bible.

 

 

Very good point. It is a reccuring theme throught time and history.

[Shadow Rider]

LTT said something that made me rethink the final showdown.  He said something to the effect that "brute force won't work".  That, and with all the references to Rand spilling blood on the rocks of Shayol Guol, and his blood washing away the shadow, etc. leads me to now believe in the sacrifice. Min's seeing that Aliva will "help" Rand die, is that Alivia stops whoever, the wonder girls, or anyone else, from stopping Rand open his perma-wounds at the Pit. The Chapter title "Veins of Gold" also adds to this theory. Rand enters the Pit, breaks the final seal and then he breaks his wounds to bleed on the rocks. Rand's blood somehow prohibits the DO from stomping on the world, so the others can form a large circle and re-make his prison. But by re-making the prison they have to leave Rand in the Pit.  I also think Fain will be in the Pit with Rand, and the Aridhol evil with battle with the DO until the next turning of the wheel. Not sure how exactly its going to play out, still thinking on this.

 

 

 

 

 

My brother and I have discussed this at length and your theories are good...but we think it is LTT that dies at Shayol Guol not Rand....

[rubbernilly]

There is no LTT. He was a construct of Rand's madness. Rand had access to memories from his past incarnation(s)*, and LTT is the interface for those memories... aided in no small part by the taint-induced-madness. But there is no LTT to die.

 

*like...

deeds -- killing Ilyena

habits -- humming and rubbing an earlobe while looking at a pretty girl

weaves -- deathgates

[Shadow Rider]

There is no LTT. He was a construct of Rand's madness. Rand had access to memories from his past incarnation(s)*, and LTT is the interface for those memories... aided in no small part by the taint-induced-madness. But there is no LTT to die.

 

*like...

deeds -- killing Ilyena

habits -- humming and rubbing an earlobe while looking at a pretty girl

weaves -- deathgates

 

 

 

Hmmm....didn't think of that....well.... Mat Died and he's still kicking, Rand has to survive...or will he?

[Azuption]

i just had a brain wave.

 

k so balefire is the OP destroying the pattern right, the power the is harmonious with the pattern destroying it

 

what if you weave balefire using the TP?  Because the TP destroys the pattern, perhaps the balefire TP will create the pattern.

 

 

This would be instrumental in the whole weaving the pattern back over the bore thing

[jemron]

Interesting.  But I think that RJ specifically said everything the TP does, requires it to destroy or corrupt the pattern in order to work.  It is a destructive force, not a creative one (like the OP can be).

[metaphor]

 

LTT said something that made me rethink the final showdown.  He said something to the effect that "brute force won't work".  That, and with all the references to Rand spilling blood on the rocks of Shayol Guol, and his blood washing away the shadow, etc. leads me to now believe in the sacrifice. Min's seeing that Aliva will "help" Rand die, is that Alivia stops whoever, the wonder girls, or anyone else, from stopping Rand open his perma-wounds at the Pit. The Chapter title "Veins of Gold" also adds to this theory. Rand enters the Pit, breaks the final seal and then he breaks his wounds to bleed on the rocks. Rand's blood somehow prohibits the DO from stomping on the world, so the others can form a large circle and re-make his prison. But by re-making the prison they have to leave Rand in the Pit.  I also think Fain will be in the Pit with Rand, and the Aridhol evil with battle with the DO until the next turning of the wheel. Not sure how exactly its going to play out, still thinking on this.

 

 

It could be meant literally. Rand does have the evil on his very body, and he's linked to the land. In the final moments, when he wins the last battle(don't ask me how though) his blood, flowing from his wound will take the DO's and Fain's  evils from it, and at the same time free the world from both evil. Or when Rand liberates the world from teh darkness he'll also liberate his body, and the blood will take it away from him, and symbolize the world being freed from the darkness.

 

 

 

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

what if Rand does not need to channel at all in order to fix the bore?

 

with his increasing taveren affect on the pattern, and the indication (e.g. threat to cadsuane) that he can consciously affect the pattern, maybe Rand can simply heal the pattern where the bore exists after breaking the seals????

[FarShainMael]

what if Rand does not need to channel at all in order to fix the bore?

 

with his increasing taveren affect on the pattern, and the indication (e.g. threat to cadsuane) that he can consciously affect the pattern, maybe Rand can simply heal the pattern where the bore exists after breaking the seals????

 

Perhaps to do that it would take all three ta'veren, becoming one..

 

[Techqn]

lots of ideas, but here's a couple to think of..

1. His blood on the rocks could be his people...the Aiel, not him, dying while fighting.  the Wise ones state they must work hard at "saving a part of a part".  So not his wounds...but his people..

 

2. The three to be one--can be several meanings...I like Callandor being used as the buffer for all 3.. Saidin, Saidar and TP....wielded at the DO by Rand via circles with women and ashamen.  LTT original plan. The one he states they called crazy...will work...and thats why he is reborn in Rand to make it right. 

 

3. The Tuath'en are needed to "find the song" and the Ogiers will sing it..they play a major part. I think its healing the world/pattern that will be destroyed via Rand/Callandor, and Perrin and Matt are needed, but not to seal the bore instead to fight, and Fain is IMPORTANT..he is like the Matrix, he is outside the pattern, so there has to be a way to destory the DO or move him outside the pattern...

the pattern will be finished (no more living again and again) and so will the ONE power.  Life will be like we are here "earth" with the ability to learn and use our brains. (hence the steam engines they created!)

No more people being able to be better then others using the one power...I think that was as remenant of the creator and it will leave...the age of "industrial type" will come.

 

my thoughts anyway :)

[and42is]

I think we got a big hint during the Dark Rand period, when Rand demonstrated and ability to affect the pattern through the force of his will, e.g. Tuon having to resist agreeing to Rand's treaty.

 

While Dark Rand's ability to affect specific changes in the pattern does not seem sufficient to seal the DO outside the pattern, a combination of the wills of the three Ta'veren could be enough to fix the hole in the pattern.

 

Specifically, and in outline form, here is my opinion of the method used to defeat the Dark One:

 

1. Rand breaks the seals, removing an obstacle to the reformation of the pattern.(Clearing the rubble in order to rebuild.)

 

2.  Rand, Mat and Perrin are combined into a single entity (similar to Luc and Isam) with sufficient Ta'veren ability to heal the pattern. This process apparently/actually kills the three Ta'veren.

 

3. Unified Super Ta'veren (or UST) fixes the hole in the pattern.

 

4. UST uses creative power to weave Trollocs, Fades, the Blight, etc. from the pattern. (Possibly also resurrecting the scores of well loved characters who died during the last battle.)

 

5. As a final act, UST weaves Mat, Perrin and Rand back into the pattern. Everyone lives happily in a Dark One free, rapidly industrializing world. 

 

I think that this seems consistent with the metaphysics of the pattern while also allowing both a happy ending with all our favorite people alive and the tension of plenty of those same characters dying dramatically during the Last Battle

 

[Dakota]

i just had a brain wave.

 

k so balefire is the OP destroying the pattern right, the power the is harmonious with the pattern destroying it

 

what if you weave balefire using the TP?  Because the TP destroys the pattern, perhaps the balefire TP will create the pattern.

 

 

This would be instrumental in the whole weaving the pattern back over the bore thing

 

Moridin used TP-balefire against Mashadar in SL with Rand at the end of book 7, and it functioned for all intents and purposes exactly like normal balefire, except Rand couldn't sense it being woven, same as all TP weaves.

[Nightstrike]

TP used near the Bore would fry you instantly (according to RJ). TP is just another power source for the channelers. Although it's usually more destructive to the Pattern. It's also much more addictive. That's the big differencies.

 

Also, TP eventually kills users that haven't been granted immortality.

 

[azrael.1289]

I think we got a big hint during the Dark Rand period, when Rand demonstrated and ability to affect the pattern through the force of his will, e.g. Tuon having to resist agreeing to Rand's treaty.

 

We have several more examples of this even before Dark Rand came about like in LoC for example, Egwene had to resist with all her strength to not give away where rebel AS are hiding when Rand asked her that.

[OptimusPrime]

I think theres an example of Rands will affecting the Pattern in Eye of the World, in the form of Mat and Perrin becoming Ta'veren.

[Nightstrike]

The Wheel chooses ta'veren. After the need arises. Rand didn't have any influence.

[storywriter100]

 

Moridin used TP-balefire against Mashadar in SL with Rand at the end of book 7, and it functioned for all intents and purposes exactly like normal balefire, except Rand couldn't sense it being woven, same as all TP weaves.

 

Yeah, but didn't the mixing of the two balefires create a link between the 2, which i don't think happens if they are both using the OP.

Also, lots of people were wondering about the whole 'blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul' but the majority of the prophecies arn't what they sound like. Maybe Rand's blood means his family (if any of them are still alive) or something like that