The Nature of the Dragon's Soul (Full Spoilers)

[OptimusPrime]

I wonder how the link affects Moridin a lot.

[Nethran Thaimal]

I think Moridin is the Dark Dragon.

 

Also, Shaidar Haran has the same room-darkening ability, right?  And it intensifies like mad when he uses his ability(however that might work), right?

[LordOfChaos]

I'm gonna have to agree with Casabamelon, his explanation fits and seems to make perfect sense in my opinion.

[SHMEV]

Yes!!! Tam telling Cadsuane about his dark aura is finally a good point! I had forgotten about that. The face darkening is still crap, but the Tam telling about his dark aura is good evidence. (A dark aura is still not necessarily a Halo of Darkness, I do think word usage is important., but I could be wrong).

  Also if the aura around Rand was the TP then why dont we see a Halo of Darkness around the Forsaken when they channel the TP? Could be lots of reasons. I would still like to see some counter theories other then obvious holes in my own logic. It is easy to point out faults, but much harder to come up with something. The King Fisher correlation and Rand bending the pattern to his will is pretty good, and probably the best we have come up with. (we as in the general population that have been posting)  

[Vermillion]

Yes!!! Tam telling Cadsuane about his dark aura is finally a good point! I had forgotten about that. The face darkening is still crap, but the Tam telling about his dark aura is good evidence. (A dark aura is still not necessarily a Halo of Darkness, I do think word usage is important., but I could be wrong).

  Also if the aura around Rand was the TP then why dont we see a Halo of Darkness around the Forsaken when they channel the TP? Could be lots of reasons. I would still like to see some counter theories other then obvious holes in my own logic. It is easy to point out faults, but much harder to come up with something. The King Fisher correlation and Rand bending the pattern to his will is pretty good, and probably the best we have come up with. (we as in the general population that have been posting)  

 

I doubt TP usage has anything to do with the aura.  I think it is either the Dragon's mood and/or the TP void Rand assumes to be emotionless and/or connection to Mord but probably the combination of all.  If I remember correctly he was always assuming the dark void to be harder and emotionless after he does the TP bit. 

[SHMEV]

  If I remember correctly he was always assuming the dark void to be harder and emotionless after he does the TP bit. 

 

Well that might be why we see the halo around him so often. He may not be channeling the TP, but holding on to it? Yeah he is in the dark void alot. However him being in a dark mood, or even his connection to Mord is seeming to be more and more the case. But if it is just his connection to Mord then why dont we see it before hand? The mood fits well because he changed his mood dramatically when he started to channel the TP. However, some normal person in the book could have an evil soul and or evil intentions in his heart and receive no Halo. The halo is unique to Rand and therefore probably has something to do with his unique roll in the pattern, or something less obvious like channeling the TP. And yes it brings up the question if it was just the TP then why dont we see a halo of darkness around the forsaken? Another good question is will we start to see black flecks float across the dragons eyes from him channeling the TP too much?

 

His roll in the pattern and his dark mood seems to be the cause for the halo of darkness, but him making his new home in the dark void could still be supporting evidence for the Halo=TP theory. 

[Bastor]

It ended up being what exactly the dark aura was, but then we got stuck on whether or not darkness surrounded Rand when he met with Tam. Conveniently the people who opposed me are ignoring the fact that Tam tells Cadsuane about Rands dark aura. I proved that it has nothing to do with the True Power being used.

I am pretty sure it is a side effect of the usage of true power. I am not saying CURRENT usage I am just saying usage at all. But I agree with the post above yours.

 

I do not think holding the true power has any sings but using it even once marks you. As LTT cries when it first happens he has doomed them all by using it. They are/were corrupt and so was the taviern part of rand that was good. He was very depressed and mad even before that and yet now is the time we see the lack of good things that follow him when he goes into towns. Right after TP usage is the time he loses all those good parts....no miraculous survivals or anything....

[Vermillion]

  If I remember correctly he was always assuming the dark void to be harder and emotionless after he does the TP bit. 

 

Well that might be why we see the halo around him so often. He may not be channeling the TP, but holding on to it? Yeah he is in the dark void alot. However him being in a dark mood, or even his connection to Mord is seeming to be more and more the case. But if it is just his connection to Mord then why dont we see it before hand? The mood fits well because he changed his mood dramatically when he started to channel the TP. However, some normal person in the book could have an evil soul and or evil intentions in his heart and receive no Halo. The halo is unique to Rand and therefore probably has something to do with his unique roll in the pattern, or something less obvious like channeling the TP. And yes it brings up the question if it was just the TP then why dont we see a halo of darkness around the forsaken? Another good question is will we start to see black flecks float across the dragons eyes from him channeling the TP too much?

 

His roll in the pattern and his dark mood seems to be the cause for the halo of darkness, but him making his new home in the dark void could still be supporting evidence for the Halo=TP theory.   

 

He wasn't using TP just assuming the dark void. 

[lillcheese]

I thought part of the debate was a question of whether Tam's face getting shadowed was evidence of TP use or the aura, or both.

 

Which is not the same thing as Tam perceiving the aura around Rand at that same moment.  If anything, I think that the moment Tam's face appeared shadowed, Rand's aura would have lessened.  I think the aura would have been strongest at the moment he thought he'd laugh as they all burned.  I don't think Tam was specific enough with Cadsuane re timing to be certain either way.

 

Rand v Tam was at night.  IIRC, immediately prior to the meeting, Rand tells a Maiden to gather some spears because they're going to go smack around the Seanchan, and she is surprised he would start such a thing at night.  

 

Tam's face was originally lit by the access key glowing from Rand's Saidin use, and possibly from the beginnings of a balefire bar though that seems less likely given previous BF examples.  Rand reduced the amount he was channeling, thereby decreasing the glow from the access key.  He simultaneously stumbled back a few steps, increasing the distance between whatever glow there was and Tam's face.  These two elements combined would make Tam's face look shadowed.  Rand's internal despair over what he was doing may also be reflected in the way he interprets the visual & describes it to us - shadowed instead of hidden for example.

 

I personally think the aura is more related to Rand's mood & self flagellation re Min and less to his usage of TP. I recognize that the TP use probably influenced his mood.  I also think that if he'd gotten some PTSD counseling immediately afterward we wouldn't be seeing that aura.  But that's spec on my part.

[Nethran Thaimal]

So basically, it's night in Tear.  Then he goes a few time zones over and its still light in Ebou Dar. Then ge goes back to the original Time Zone, sits a few hours, channels a ton of the OP and the sun breaks through.  Continuity error?  Yes.

[lillcheese]

He spends the night in Ebou Dar with Tinkers.  He doesn't get into the city until day.  That's one of the services Tinkers are providing for the Seanchan - taking in people who arrive too late for an inn.  I think.

[Nethran Thaimal]

You're correct, and I was wrong.  I forgot about that part.

[OptimusPrime]

So Ive been thinking recently...

 

How would everyone recieve the idea that Lews Therin is not there because of Rands mental problems, but actually because Rand is a Hero of the Horn?

 

The thought struck me a few days ago when talking on here about the chapter Veins of Gold. Rand remembered many lives, and this rung bells in my head, pointing me towards Birgitte. She also remembers some of her past lives, despite being ripped out of the Dream.

 

Ive mentioned it once or twice already yet I cant remember which threads I said it in, so I thought I might as well put it here. The idea fits, given that RJ did confirm that Rands soul is a Hero of the Horn and that both Rand and Birgitte have access to past life memories. Also, Artur Hawkwing seems well aware in TGH.

 

What does everyone think?

[Agitel]

Well, Rand is Lews Therin's soul born into another body, which in turn is the soul of the previous Dragon (though not by that name, I'm sure), which is in turn the soul of the previous... so yeah, I'd say Rand's something like a hero.

[Durinax]

the dragon is the champion of light, and is a major hero of the light, I think the dragon soul and artur hawking just chill out in periods between reincarnations drinkin some beers and watchin some world news

[saidarisnowtainted]

what if his soul is uniquely special -- what if it is infused with the creator, who in turn is creation/infused with the wheel/OP,etc.

 

could explain his affect on the pattern/connection with the world, which due to (IMO) indications he can cause intentionally as well as subconsciously--this appears unique from other taveren existing now or in the past.

 

could explain why we dont see the creator but we do see the DO.  the creator is in the dragon as well as creation/the pattern/wheel.

 

honestly, i just had the thought so i posted it in the event it was worth any discussion/led to more thoughts. 

 

but honestly, this is waaaay to messianic for me and would be disappointing to me if this or something near to it were the case.

[Durinax]

what if his soul is uniquely special -- what if it is infused with the creator, who in turn is creation/infused with the wheel/OP,etc.

 

could explain his affect on the pattern/connection with the world, which due to (IMO) indications he can cause intentionally as well as subconsciously--this appears unique from other taveren existing now or in the past.

 

could explain why we dont see the creator but we do see the DO.  the creator is in the dragon as well as creation/the pattern/wheel.

 

honestly, i just had the thought so i posted it in the event it was worth any discussion/led to more thoughts. 

 

but honestly, this is waaaay to messianic for me and would be disappointing to me if this or something near to it were the case.

as the champion of light it could be that the creator infused within the soul his in world powers, i doubt it though. I think the land and stuff being effected by Rand is jsut because of the battle of light and shadow within him, showing waxing and waning effects of shadows upon the world

[Telamon7]

Do we know for certain that Rand has channeled the TP more then once? We know he used it to free himself, but don't you think it would be mentioned if he did again? It's certainly important enough for it. I would think it would be clearly stated if he ever used the TP. Is it even possible to channel the TP through an sa'angreal/angreal/ter'angreal?

 

Rand had set himself on a path that ultimately could only lead to disaster. He tried to make himself as hard and emotionless as possible. I think the Aura is the culmination of all that, triggered by his use of the TP. I honestly believe something similar would of happened had he never used the TP, but continued with the belief that he had to be like stone or iron. Had he continued with his tyrannical behavior, his uncaring attitude, hardening his heart and disregarding the consequences of his actions, something similar would of manifested itself. My opinion of course. He's been descending into darkness for awhile now, and upon using the TP that darkness manifested itself into something visible.

[FarShainMael]

So Ive been thinking recently...

 

How would everyone recieve the idea that Lews Therin is not there because of Rands mental problems, but actually because Rand is a Hero of the Horn?

 

The thought struck me a few days ago when talking on here about the chapter Veins of Gold. Rand remembered many lives, and this rung bells in my head, pointing me towards Birgitte. She also remembers some of her past lives, despite being ripped out of the Dream.

 

Ive mentioned it once or twice already yet I cant remember which threads I said it in, so I thought I might as well put it here. The idea fits, given that RJ did confirm that Rands soul is a Hero of the Horn and that both Rand and Birgitte have access to past life memories. Also, Artur Hawkwing seems well aware in TGH.

 

What does everyone think?

At the end of VoG, Rand knows that he will never hear LTT's voice again, 'for they were not two men, and never had been'.

 

So Rand and LTT are one and the same soul (not bloodline, LTT was the Kinslayer). However, Rand has the technique, learned from Tam, of the flame and the void. I think that, all unknowingly, he has been maintaining a 'flame', a sub-persona, into which he has been putting all the negative things that the madness of the taint on saidin has caused. Also those things such as memories of previous lives, the most recent of which has been the worst of the lot - LTT's madness and suicide. Subconsciously he's given this sub-persona LTT's voice and personality. As Rand has poured more and more of the madness in, 'LTT' has grown stronger, and managed to take over after Semi got to him. Now this flame has re-merged with the void, and Rand is once again whole, and sane.. and with his ancient memories accessible?

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

The thing that makes me think its because Rand is a Hero is that the things Rand remembers via Lews Therin are geniune memories-its proved by the things Lews teaches Rand with the Power. Now, I can understand how Rand might associate a voice with memories of who he used to be, yet I cant get past the fact that Rand remembers more lives in VoG and also the prophecy at the end says "when the many become one."

 

I can understand how Lews Therin might be a coping mechanism, but those4 memories are definitely real. My point is the memories themselves are there, I reckon, because Rand is a Hero of the Horn.

 

Could it be that all Ta'veren become Heroes? Or has that been debunked?

[FarShainMael]

The memories are certainly real, and the many have indeed become one. Rand could well be a HotH, but one thing bothers me; AH talking about having fought both with and against him. Could this happen, if Rand is a Hero?

 

If so, then yes, all ta'veren may indeed be Heroes, it would make a lot of sense.

 

Don't think it goes the other way though, with all HotH being ta'veren; Birgitte isn't for one. (??)

[Nightstrike]

The memories are certainly real, and the many have indeed become one. Rand could well be a HotH, but one thing bothers me; AH talking about having fought both with and against him. Could this happen, if Rand is a Hero?

RJ said he is a hero of the Horn. RJ also said they fight against one another when it's in the interest of the Wheel.

 

If so, then yes, all ta'veren may indeed be Heroes, it would make a lot of sense.

Ta'veren are created at need. Nothing so far says they must be heroes of the Horn.

 

Don't think it goes the other way though, with all HotH being ta'veren; Birgitte isn't for one. (??)

No, sometimes they even live ordinary lifes. Without any heroics at all.

 

[Nightstrike]

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Matoyak reporting

 

Mato: OK, just a heads up, I'm from Theoryland so you know I've got a few questions I'm going to have to ask you...

Sanderson: Oh boy...I'm going to have to think about these, aren't I?

Mato: ~laughs~ OK... Heroes of the Horn, are they corrective mechanisms by themselves, or are they corrective mechanisms by virtue of being ta'veren?

Sanderson: Heroes are not always ta'veren. So, yes, they are corrective mechanisms by themselves.

 

[Telamon7]

My understanding of multiple personality disorders is that it isn't like what's happened with Rand. Of course, I do doubt that anything like what has happened with Rand has ever actually happened. His case is rather...unique. The idea that LTT's voice was made up or imagined by Rand as a coping mechanism certainly makes sense. But what happened in KoD when "LTT" seized control of the source from Rand? Is this the madness, or is LTT more then just a source of memory? What did Semi mean when she exposed the voice in Rand's head, saying " it makes no difference in this case that the voice is real ". Was she just trying to be divisive and turn Rand's allies away from him? Does she truly believe the voice in Rand's head is a real voice? These questions need to be answered, and if Rand's case is unique and the voice is truly a coping mechanism for the memories, how does Semi know about it? Why does she suspect the voice is real? Is it that she understands Rand is LTT reborn and thus would have access to his memories, or is she playing a guessing game in order to confuse Rand and his allies and possibly divide them?

 

Blah, I'm confusing myself with all this. Either way I suspect that by the end of the series we should have an answer. Hopefully Min or someone else will ask about the voice, and Rand will answer truthfully that it's gone, and then go on to explain why he thinks he heard it in the first place and why he thinks it is now gone.

[Epiph]

So, I registered just to say this, because I couldn't believe it hadn't been brought up:

 

We have had Rand PoVs several times while he was projecting the dark aura and he was not holding or channeling the TP.  It's not specifically said, because Rand can't know what he looks like, but it's implied, by a later Nynaeve perspective, that the look he gives her and the other Aes Sedai to stare them down is equivalent to the dark aura.  And we have had Rand's PoV a bunch of times when he was staring people down.

 

If that's not good enough for you, consider this: Rand states at some point after touching the TP and regaining the CK key that he is carrying the key around to keep him from touching the TP.  The TP is so tempting that he carries the CK key to act as a counterweight, while at the same time, the TP acts as a counterweight to using the CK.

 

I don't think Rand touched the TP a second time.