Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[EmperorAllspice]

If Demandred was meant to be second only to Lews in terms of the Power. Then where does Ishamael and Aginor come in?

[Finnssss22]

If Demandred was meant to be second only to Lews in terms of the Power. Then where does Ishamael and Aginor come in?

 

All 4 are pretty close to each other in raw strength.

The reason it gets mentioned so much with Demandred is because it falls in line with everything else. He was just behind LTT in everything, second in height, second in power, second in influence, second in accomplishments. It's said many times throughout the series that if not for LTT, Barid Bel Medar would of been the most accomplished man of the AoL.

It's all those second place finishes that led to his hate of LTT and one of the main reasons he went over to the Shadow.

[EmperorAllspice]

Then why is Ishamael the Nae Blis?

[Finnssss22]

Then why is Ishamael the Nae Blis?

 

Heh, for that one, you need to keep reading my friend

Edited November 9, 2012 by Finnssss

[EmperorAllspice]

How is knowing that a spoiler?

[Finnssss22]

How is knowing that a spoiler?

 

When you find out why he went to the Shadow, you'll better understand why the DO trusts him more than the others.

[EmperorAllspice]

Oh, you mean the "He wants to destroy the pattern too because he's tired of the repetitive nature of the WOT" thing? Cuz I know that

 

hmmmm... Is Demandred smarter than Lews. Or was Lews perfect at everything? -____-

[Finnssss22]

Oh, you mean the "He wants to destroy the pattern too because he's tired of the repetitive nature of the WOT" thing? Cuz I know that

 

hmmmm... Is Demandred smarter than Lews. Or was Lews perfect at everything? -____-

 

Depends how you want to look at it. Looking at it from Demandred's perpective, he believes he is smarter than LTT, that LTT was just overly lucky. Considering that LTT was ta'veren, he might not be completely wrong.

To be honest, it's really hard to answer much on Demandred without spoiling anything for you.

 

Besides, you're on Lord of Chaos now. That is one hell of a book and has, IMO, the single greatest and most awesome endings of any book in the series!!!

Get to it man lol

[Amandera]

Was LTT ta'veren? I know the LTT in Rand's head says 'I am ta'veren' but he talks about Emond's Field, too. And I don't remember it mentioned anywhere else.

[EmperorAllspice]

great for the villains or great for Rand? Because the former I'll find awesome and the latter I'll probably want to kill someone over

[Suttree]

Was LTT ta'veren?

 

EWoT Loial

That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web – ta'maral'ailen, it's called – can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose."

[EmperorAllspice]

Okay, what does being Ta'veren entail exactly? As in what's the point of them? If the pattern controls people's lives, and Ta'veren follow the pattern's will... then why bother having them at all?

[Finnssss22]

great for the villains or great for Rand? Because the former I'll find awesome and the latter I'll probably want to kill someone over

 

Just read dude. You won't be disappointed, trust me.

[EmperorAllspice]

It really feels like Ta'veren are invincibe. I know I keep being told that they aren't. but I see know reason to believe those people.

[Amandera]

Was LTT ta'veren?

 

EWoT Loial

That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web – ta'maral'ailen, it's called – can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose."

Thanks.

 

Okay, what does being Ta'veren entail exactly? As in what's the point of them? If the pattern controls people's lives, and Ta'veren follow the pattern's will... then why bother having them at all?

They are likely the Wheel's self-correcting mechanism.

 

It really feels like Ta'veren are invincibe. I know I keep being told that they aren't. but I see know reason to believe those people.

Well, this is not a GRRM series where the most important character gets his head chopped off before even the first book is finished. Our main characters get themselves in dangerous situations all the time but come out alive. Ta'veren are not invincible but still harder to kill than others. Remember they just happen to move right before arrows are about to hit them, or Trollocs fall on their swords or such. That's due to ta'veren altering chance. It seems coincidence, but that's how ta'veren works. You might call ta'veren RJ's plot machine.

 

As for reason to believe, I think the best is in TSR:

The man cut him off and spoke hurriedly. “You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled. Now, go. You must go! Quickly!”

This is Aelfinn's answer to Mat asking why he should go to Rhuidean. There is all sorts of prophecies about Mat, and Pattern is forcing Mat to stay near Rand but the Aelfinn's answer says he is able to go another way, however hard, but it'll result in his death.

[EmperorAllspice]

Yeah, I know all that. You just highlighted the problem!

 

How can I feel like the characters are in danger when reality is shifting IN-UNIVERSE to protect them? How can the villains fight that? Why don't they quit? If reality will contrive a person to sneak up on them just as they're about to make the final blow then why do they bother?

 

and more importantly, why should I care?

[Finnssss22]

Yeah, I know all that. You just highlighted the problem!

 

How can I feel like the characters are in danger when reality is shifting IN-UNIVERSE to protect them? How can the villains fight that? Why don't they quit? If reality will contrive a person to sneak up on them just as they're about to make the final blow then why do they bother?

 

and more importantly, why should I care?

 

You do realise that Mat did indeed die at the end of tFoH.

 

Seriously man, you need to keep reading and believe me when I tell you that none of three ta'veren make it through to the end unscathed. Dude...not by a long shot!

[EmperorAllspice]

but Mat also came back.

 

None of the Ta'veren die permanently, so I don't know what their limits are. HOW DO YOU FIGHT THEM?!

[Amandera]

Why are you talking like main characters dying left and right is the norm in fiction? If Jack Bauer managed to survive eight seasons of 24, anything is possible. I assume you are looking for another ASoIF, well good luck. That is very rare, especially in fantasy.

[EmperorAllspice]

No! Usually the story doesn't outright tell me that reality is bending to help the heroes. If you're going to introduce this element then you need to establish the rules

[Whizbang]

@EmperorAllSpice

 

The DO influences the pattern and constantly disrupts the Pattern's "plan". The Pattern has a mechanism to counter this, called Ta'veren. But, that doesn't mean that the Ta'veren will succeed, or that the DO won't disrupt the pattern enough that the Ta'veren cannot do their jobs. Also, there is such a thing as free will. If the Ta'veren decides to go against the pattern, it would be hard, but they can do it. Doing so will throw the fate of the world into wild chance, and who knows what will happen. So, the Pattern influences events, sometimes fairly strongly, but it can be thwarted, especially as the DO's prison weakens and the pattern gets corrupted more and more. Being Ta'veren gives you a little additional luck and happenstance to aid you on your goal of saving the world, but it also forces you into situations where you are attempting to save the world, a very dangerous job by all accounts.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Whizbang

[EmperorAllspice]

Okay, I can buy that, then if you were a Chosen, how do you go about fighting someone who could fire an arrow randomly and just so happen to hit something important? Or could suddenly make you lose the grip on your sword as you're fighting him. Or who could lead to someone coincidentally stumbling across you and helping him.

Edited November 9, 2012 by EmperorAllspice

[Amandera]

No! Usually the story doesn't outright tell me that reality is bending to help the heroes. If you're going to introduce this element then you need to establish the rules

Does it matter? You know that Frodo is not going to die, because LotR is just not the same without him, isn't it?

 

Okay, let me put it this way. Ta'veren are very lucky. If an assassin is trying to kill Rand with bow and arrow, a lot can go wrong. Something may distract the assassin, he can miss, Rand can move at the right time etc. But if Ishamael corners and overpowers Rand, or Slayer just appears at his back and plants a knife through his heart, he is dead. He is not immortal but he is luckier than most men so harder to kill.

[EmperorAllspice]

No! Usually the story doesn't outright tell me that reality is bending to help the heroes. If you're going to introduce this element then you need to establish the rules

Does it matter? You know that Frodo is not going to die, because LotR is just not the same without him, isn't it?

 

Okay, let me put it this way. Ta'veren are very lucky. If an assassin is trying to kill Rand with bow and arrow, a lot can go wrong. Something may distract the assassin, he can miss, Rand can move at the right time etc. But if Ishamael corners and overpowers Rand, or Slayer just appears at his back and plants a knife through his heart, he is dead. He is not immortal but he is luckier than most men so harder to kill.

 

It is different, actually. When I'm reading a story, I can lose myself in the world. I can ignore the narrative devices being employed in the story's structure because no one brings attention to them.

 

In WOT, even if I do lose myself in the story, those narrative devices are IN THE ACTUAL DIAGETIC WORLD. I can't ignore the fact that coincidences always seem to happen around the main characters because the story keeps pointing it out.

[Amandera]

Okay, I can buy that, then if you were a Chosen, how do you go about fighting someone who could fire an arrow randomly and just so happen to hit something important? Or could suddenly make you lose the grip on your sword as you're fighting him. Or who could lead to someone coincidentally stumbling across you and helping him.

Shield him, bind him with Air, then throw a giant fireball at him. And bye-bye Dragon Reborn.

 

You're exaggerating in my opinion. Fain would've killed Rand just fine, if Cadsuane were a few moments late.

 

No! Usually the story doesn't outright tell me that reality is bending to help the heroes. If you're going to introduce this element then you need to establish the rules

Does it matter? You know that Frodo is not going to die, because LotR is just not the same without him, isn't it?

 

Okay, let me put it this way. Ta'veren are very lucky. If an assassin is trying to kill Rand with bow and arrow, a lot can go wrong. Something may distract the assassin, he can miss, Rand can move at the right time etc. But if Ishamael corners and overpowers Rand, or Slayer just appears at his back and plants a knife through his heart, he is dead. He is not immortal but he is luckier than most men so harder to kill.

 

It is different, actually. When I'm reading a story, I can lose myself in the world. I can ignore the narrative devices being employed in the story's structure because no one brings attention to them.

 

In WOT, even if I do lose myself in the story, those narrative devices are IN THE ACTUAL DIAGETIC WORLD. I can't ignore the fact that coincidences always seem to happen around the main characters because the story keeps pointing it out.

Well, I can understand that. The point remains though, that ta'veren is one of the most important aspects of the series. The enemy is much stronger, and the allies are bad enough the characters don't really need enemies. Ta'veren is the edge they have.

 

You're at LoC as I understand. Just read on. The heroes get enough near-death situations.