Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

There aren't dozens of nations the Dragon was born to. Asmodean may not be the most saavy Forsaken, but it doesn't take a manipulative genuis to make the connection.

 

As a side note--how is it a Dues ex Machina? I mean even say Asmodean knowing a song from Manetheren was a mistake on RJ's part, how would that constitute an act of God coming down in a bid to complete the narrative? It solved no convuluted plot points, so why do you name it so?

 

It might not be Deus ex machina but it certainly stretches believability. I agree with Atsnok on that. The whole idea that the Forsaken could even learn to speak the current language so quickly in pretty ridiculous IMO. RJ said that the language of Randlands is very easy to learn. I don't care how easy it is, they can't learn it that fast, learn various stories and the politics of the current world and speak without an accent too. Balthamel and Aginor seem to have only just been freed and yet they speak perfectly. Lanfear shows up early in TGH and yet she speaks perfectly too, presumably with a Cairhienin accent. Nobody suspects her of being a foreigner, certainly. Hurin quickly identifies the innkeeper at Foregate as a foreigner by her accent yet he never suspects "lady Selene" of being one.

 

There may be a small hint RJ fitted in there in the song of Manetheren business as to where Asmo was, and what he was doing, before he appeared in the Waste?

As to language, it's like the OT was Latin or Sanskrit and gave rise to a Common instead of many related languages. It's fantasy but the world retained literacy and the printing press post-Breaking so, it's not that crazy that the same language continued to be spoken in most places with some variations.

So, it wouldn't be difficult to pick up for an OT speaker - even easier than say, a Spanish speaker learning Italian.

It's possible that Carhein with its great library (which meant continuous connection to the OT) and its very precise enunciation, which is often remarked upon, actually retained an accent that was very close to the classical OT. So Meirin may just have been speaking in her own normal accent.

Hurin BTW is a Borderlander and not a very well-travelled one and he's guessing at a Carheinian accent so, how much do you rely on him anyway?

We also do have an RJ quote to the effect that Balty and Aginor were in touch with the world, which is why they aged more than the others. (Balty is also a specialist anthropologist, which means he/she probably has liguistic gifts.)

[seanzor]

I have another question spurred by a quote I found on the latest Taim discussion:

 

TGS, 15 "A Place to Begin." The Moridin/Rand dream sequence. "I feel so tired," Moridin continued, closing his eyes. "Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

 

at first I thought the DO gave Rand the ability to channel the TP but is it more likely that Moridin let him, because he was pissed at Semirhage?

[capuga]

I have another question spurred by a quote I found on the latest Taim discussion:

 

TGS, 15 "A Place to Begin." The Moridin/Rand dream sequence. "I feel so tired," Moridin continued, closing his eyes. "Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

 

at first I thought the DO gave Rand the ability to channel the TP but is it more likely that Moridin let him, because he was pissed at Semirhage?

 

My belief is that he channeled the True Power through his link with Moridin without the Dark One or Moridin knowing about it. That is why he say another face (Moridin's) just before channeling. However, this is still hotly debated and most of the comments I've read believe that Semi's escape and Rand's usage of the True Power were all a plan by the Shadow to turn Rand to the darkside.

[Threepy]

I have another question spurred by a quote I found on the latest Taim discussion:

 

TGS, 15 "A Place to Begin." The Moridin/Rand dream sequence. "I feel so tired," Moridin continued, closing his eyes. "Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

 

at first I thought the DO gave Rand the ability to channel the TP but is it more likely that Moridin let him, because he was pissed at Semirhage?

 

I assumed that Semirhage was sacrificed in an attempt to get Rand to turn to the Dark (by granting him access to the True Power). I figured it was one of the (no doubt many) reasons the game of Sha'rah was mentioned. Sometimes pieces in a game have to be sacrificed for a greater purpose, and no matter how powerful Semirhage was, she was still just a piece on the board.

[Luckers]

Hello, there is my simple question :

 

In "The Path of Daggers", when Maighdin / Morgase has joined the camp of Perrin in Ghealdan : Why has nobody recognised her ?

Annoura Sedai is from the grey ajah : she must known all the rulers of Randland, doesn't it ?

 

Thanks ! :)

 

Not every Gray will have met every ruler. Evidentally Annoura had not met Morgase.

I thought about that to. Morgase went to the WT to train, and unless Annoura was completely absent from the WT, which maybe she was, she would recognize an important person like Morgase. Morgase, a celebrity, was a direct link to Andor for the WT.

 

Morgase wasn't a celebrity in those days, merely the daughter of a powerful house. There were many others. And we see from Egwene in LoC that not every sister interacts with novices--there were several Egwene had never encountered--and Egwene with her strength was more of a celebrity than Morgase with her noble blood.

 

Even if Annoura was within the Tower in those days it doesn't mean she met Morgase--one incredibly weak novice who would not have been there for more than a few months--and given we know she's very active outside the Tower (we know she was one of those who tried to stabalize the Grand Coalition following the Aiel War, for instance) we don't even know she would be there.

 

It might not be Deus ex machina but it certainly stretches believability. I agree with Atsnok on that. The whole idea that the Forsaken could even learn to speak the current language so quickly in pretty ridiculous IMO. RJ said that the language of Randlands is very easy to learn. I don't care how easy it is, they can't learn it that fast learn various stories and the politics of the current world and speak without an accent too.

 

Actually, I had this discussion with a friend of mine who was a linguist quite a number of years ago, and I expressed the same ideas you are, but apparently its not as difficult as one might think. Randlandish is not a foreign language to an AoL'er, but rather a descendent language. One which the syntax and grammar of is much much simpler, and based largely on that of the Old Tongue.

 

So a lot of what takes time in learning a language, they already had--and the basis leant itself to an instinctive understanding of the heart of the language. My linguist friend didn't have huge problems with the whole concept.

 

As for the accent--a couple of options. One, we know from Semirhage that her natural accent sounds much more like a Randlander than a Seanchan, so its entirely possible that an AoL accent sounds much the same anyway. I do agree, I have more problems with the accent.

 

Balthamel and Aginor seem to have only just been freed and yet they speak perfectly.

 

Balthamel and Aginor could see the world, focus in like watching through a television. They learnt the language as it evolved.

 

Lanfear shows up early in TGH and yet she speaks perfectly too, presumably with a Cairhienin accent. Nobody suspects her of being a foreigner, certainly. Hurin quickly identifies the innkeeper at Foregate as a foreigner by her accent yet he never suspects "lady Selene" of being one.

 

Possibly Lanfear was more linguistically talented than the others. Certainly we know that Graendal was also quite talented in this area--she thinks how easy modern script is to fake. In reverse we know that Aran'gar had to print her letters like a child. Possibly the only reason she mastered the language was because as Balthamel she had thousands of years to learn it.

[ckennedy1982]

May i add something to this thread even though it is old? Has anyone ever wondered that maybe the TP can be used against the DO? If so has he just give Rand his greatest weapon??

[Terez]

Yes, that was everybody's first theory after TGS came out. Many of us believe that it would be a very bad thing if Rand used the True Power again, though it's likely to happen if Moridin takes over his body. Many of us also believe it doesn't make much sense to try to seal the Dark One up with his own power. Seems like it would give him an automatic loophole.

 

Also, I would resist delving too deeply into the physics of WoT, seeing as how RJ has said that stars don't go supernova in his world.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Terez

[herid]

 

Actually, I had this discussion with a friend of mine who was a linguist quite a number of years ago, and I expressed the same ideas you are, but apparently its not as difficult as one might think. Randlandish is not a foreign language to an AoL'er, but rather a descendent language. One which the syntax and grammar of is much much simpler, and based largely on that of the Old Tongue.

 

So a lot of what takes time in learning a language, they already had--and the basis leant itself to an instinctive understanding of the heart of the language. My linguist friend didn't have huge problems with the whole concept.

 

well, I don't know. Did you tell your friend that we are talking about a period of three thousand years? I'm not a linguist but I have a hard time imagining much of any language surviving over three thousand years to remain recognizable. I've read an old Russian text from 12th century and it's basically incomprehensible. and that is only 900 years ago. same goes for English. Try reading Chaucer in Middle English some time, see how easy that is. Out of curiosity I just tried reading the Song of Nibelungs in Middle High German and it's a really tough going too, although I find it to be somewhat closer to modern German than the Russian and English examples I mentioned. But if you go back 3 thousand years none of those languages will be recognizable (or even exist) at all. The only language I can think of that survived that long in any form is Greek but since I don't speak it I can't say how much different it is from modern Greek.

 

But we also have in-story references to Old Tongue being very different from the current Randlands language. when Mat spouts Old Tongue those around him are usually clueless except for some nobles who had old tongue lessons and can understand a word or two. I think the explanations RJ gave simply reflect the fact that this was an aspect of the story that he didn't think through very carefully in the beginning and then it was too late to fix it. I can live with that.

[IMeMin]

This might fall more under "ask a stupid question", but...

 

In TSR, when Rand takes Mat and Egwene and everybody else east, they all use Portal Stones, right? I remember thinking there would eventually have to be a part where they return from the alternate reality and come back to the "real" one, like in TGH. But it doesn't happen. I guess are we supposed to just assume they went into an alternate reality and came immediately back into the same current world? Or did I miss something? My best guess is just that RJ at that point didn't feel the need to describe Portal Stones any further, but this always threw me off.

[Ashandarei]

This might fall more under "ask a stupid question", but...

 

In TSR, when Rand takes Mat and Egwene and everybody else east, they all use Portal Stones, right? I remember thinking there would eventually have to be a part where they return from the alternate reality and come back to the "real" one, like in TGH. But it doesn't happen. I guess are we supposed to just assume they went into an alternate reality and came immediately back into the same current world? Or did I miss something? My best guess is just that RJ at that point didn't feel the need to describe Portal Stones any further, but this always threw me off.

 

The Portal Stones can take you from this reality to another reality or from this location to another location in the same reality(where another PS stands) depending on which half of the stone, bottom or top, that you use. What Rand did with the group is location change, what he did chasing Fain was reality change.

Edited March 8, 2011 by Ashandarei

[IMeMin]

Thanks, Ashandarei. I must have missed that part. It definitely had the potential to alter my experience of TSR. Though of course I did later figure out that "return" scene wasn't going to happen.

[Terrapin]

Hello everyone,

 

I have a possibly stupid/simple question and guess this would be the best forum. Does anyone know or have a lead on the lineage of Manatherens royal line? A little foggy, but I believe that Rand and Matt have both been referred to as true blood of Manetherin. I know Rand is an "adopted son" of manetherin's decendents, but I think it would be funny if the line dated back to Hawkwing. Mat could potentially be a descendent of Hawking. I'm not buildng any theory or totting a pre-established one. I just think it would be a comical scene if Matt told Tuon to listen here, I'm the real deal so............(use your imagination to finish that one). Thanks

[mb]

The books up through Gathering Storm do not tell Manatheren's royal line; and I doubt Towers of Midnight either. The guide also does not tell.

The people that would know I suspect would be just the ones that have access to the notes.

 

That scene in Eye of World seems to imply just Mat being a descendant of the last king. True blood of anywhere seems to indicate that the person imitates the people.

[yoniy0]

what [Rand] did chasing Fain was reality change.

Strictly speaking, Lanfear did it for him (at least on the way out from Randland).

 

I think it would be funny if the line dated back to Hawkwing.

I agree with @mb, nothing in the books is conclusive. It's possible both Tigraine and Abel are descendants from Aemon, but we just don't know. You might want to read this thread, though.

On the subject of Hawkwing, I'm sorry but that's not possible. Hawkwing didn't have any children left this side of the Aryth ocean.

[Luckers]

what [Rand] did chasing Fain was reality change.

Strictly speaking, Lanfear did it for him (at least on the way out from Randland).

 

I think it would be funny if the line dated back to Hawkwing.

I agree with @mb, nothing in the books is conclusive. It's possible both Tigraine and Abel are descendants from Aemon, but we just don't know. You might want to read this thread, though.

On the subject of Hawkwing, I'm sorry but that's not possible. Hawkwing didn't have any children left this side of the Aryth ocean.

 

Berelain's family claim to be descendents of Hawkwings. Through a grandson, if I recall correctly. Tyrn? Tryn?

[Terez]

The implication is that Berelain was descended from Hawkwing's daughter who was sent to conquer Shara just as Luthair was sent to conquer Seanchan. The point was supposed to be that none of Hawkwing's heirs would be around to claim his empire when he died; apparently the descendants of the daughter took some time to recover from the expedition. The claim of the Firsts is disputed because the records show that all of Hawkwing's heirs were killed; however, Luthair and the unnamed daughter disappeared before Hawkwing died, so they weren't accounted for in the murders that happened after Hawkwing's death.

 

We don't know much about the line of Manetheren - just a few names and a few stories, most of which can be found in TEOTW, either at Moiraine's speech about Manetheren or her later speech about Shadar Logoth. We know that the line is originally descended from Arad - presumably the king who joined the Second Covenant when the Ten Nations were formed - and we know a little about Aemon's father and mother, Caar and Rhea. Rhea was likely from the Borderlands, and her name is a parallel to the mother of the gods, which also goes for Rhea, sister of Rand's Aiel ancestor and possible matriarch of the Andoran royal line.

[yoniy0]

Berelain's family claim to be descendents of Hawkwings. Through a grandson, if I recall correctly. Tyrn? Tryn?

You have me there. You read the Guide, correct? Did his daughter have children before being sent across the Aiel Waste? I can't recall any of his children procreating before they died or were sent away.

 

EDIT: Oops, Terez already covered this. You can disregard my post.

[Luckers]

Here is what the Guide says...

 

While the Firsts of Mayene claim descent from Hawkwing, through a grandson named Tyrn, there is no evidence that any of Hawkwing's blood survived him, and all surviving contemporary records state clearly that none did. On the other hand, given the state of affairs after Hawkwing's death, any living descendant of Hawkwing would have been hidden away as a matter of safety.

 

So it doesn't imply the daughter, so much as a grandson already present in the Westlands and hidden away upon Hawkwings death. Tyrn could be the child of any of Hawkwing's children--if the claim is true, of course.

 

Of course that doesn't rule out the daughter, and the daughter might theoretically explain the lack of records, if she survived the destruction of her fleet... *shrug*

[Terez]

Here is what the Guide says...

 

While the Firsts of Mayene claim descent from Hawkwing, through a grandson named Tyrn, there is no evidence that any of Hawkwing's blood survived him, and all surviving contemporary records state clearly that none did. On the other hand, given the state of affairs after Hawkwing's death, any living descendant of Hawkwing would have been hidden away as a matter of safety.

 

So it doesn't imply the daughter, so much as a grandson already present in the Westlands and hidden away upon Hawkwings death. Tyrn could be the child of any of Hawkwing's children--if the claim is true, of course.

 

Of course that doesn't rule out the daughter, and the daughter might theoretically explain the lack of records, if she survived the destruction of her fleet... *shrug*

The daughter is implied in the way of the BWB. That is, all of the pieces are not laid out for you clearly in the BWB, despite the fact that it appears to be a straightforward history. For instance, the clues about Moerad being Ishamael are spaced out so that you have to puzzle it out on your own (and feel like you are smarter than the historians who wrote it). It seems elementary to us now, but those pieces had to be put together. It's the same with Hawkwing's daughter and the Firsts of Mayene; they make it really clear for us despite not spelling it out for us. If Hawkwing's descendants had resurfaced in, say, Arad Doman, then the connection would not be so obvious.

[Luckers]

So the only connecting clue is to be Mayene geographical closeness to the last known whereabouts of Hawkwing's daughter? It's plausible, I suppose.

[Terez]

It's not the only connecting clue. It's just the one that invokes the Razor.

[yoniy0]

For the benefit of those of us who haven't read the Guide, do you mind telling me what the other clues were?

[PhoenixUK]

 

Strictly speaking, Lanfear did it for him (at least on the way out from Randland).

DId she? Rand and co slept next to the portal stone, and the last thing Rand remembers before sleeping is the flickering light of saidin. Its possible he was channeling as he began to fall asleep, into the portal stone, and that lanfear just followed him.

[yoniy0]

Strictly speaking, Lanfear did it for him (at least on the way out from Randland).

DId she? Rand and co slept next to the portal stone, and the last thing Rand remembers before sleeping is the flickering light of saidin. Its possible he was channeling as he began to fall asleep, into the portal stone, and that lanfear just followed him.

Granted, I don't have definitive proof, but it fits better. First, the whole thing was just too convenient for her. Second, Verin seemed to believe he couldn't have done that in his sleep. Third, it took everything he had to get them back to Cairhien; I doubt he could've done it and not be aware that he did something.

[Sharaman]

 

Actually, I had this discussion with a friend of mine who was a linguist quite a number of years ago, and I expressed the same ideas you are, but apparently its not as difficult as one might think. Randlandish is not a foreign language to an AoL'er, but rather a descendent language. One which the syntax and grammar of is much much simpler, and based largely on that of the Old Tongue.

 

So a lot of what takes time in learning a language, they already had--and the basis leant itself to an instinctive understanding of the heart of the language. My linguist friend didn't have huge problems with the whole concept.

 

well, I don't know. Did you tell your friend that we are talking about a period of three thousand years? I'm not a linguist but I have a hard time imagining much of any language surviving over three thousand years to remain recognizable. I've read an old Russian text from 12th century and it's basically incomprehensible.

 

 

Both Arabic and Tamil have survived recognisably for over 1500 years. A modern speaker can follow the old tongue.

Anybody who knows Spanish/ Italian/ French will recognise large chunks of Latin and finds it fairly easy to learn another language from that group.

Anybody who knows any one of a dozen North Indian languages will recognise Sanskrit and Farsi.

In all cases, you're talking 1500-2000 years plus without unbroken literacy. Literacy freezes grammar and usage solidly.

If you're talking post-literacy - as in modern English versus post-Gutenberg English of say 16th century like Shakespeare, the recognisation factor is much higher.