Personal opinions of tWoT series. *warning - highly negative*

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

You're ignoring the obvious. Nynaeve used the Sad Bracelets to end the stalemate. Yes, that gave her victory, and yes that victory was attained by wit and not her strength in the One Power, but that doesn't change the fact that prior to Nynaeve's excellent ploy there was a stalemate. They were evenly matched in strength. Exactly matched, in fact.

 

I'm not arguing that Nynaeve was as strong as Moghedian because she won the fight. Strength and victory often have nothing to do with each other, as I argued in detail above. I'm stating that they were equal in strength because we see it shown clearly in that scene.

 

  I think you're mistaking what I wrote as disagreeing with you. I wrote it in response to Zidel's commentary on lack of textual support to Vulgir. I provided as a textual basis for further discussion, and drew some conclusions based on the information there. In fact, I -almost- completely agree with what you're saying, except on your conclusion that they were -exactly- matched. Evenly matched sure, and close enough that the difference is almost negligible.

 

  If we're going to pick at details, that's not the same thing, but really... who cares? Why insist on drawing a conclusion that isn't completely supported when the part that is supported is more than sufficient for the point? After all, it does say something about Nynaeve's strength in the power that she was able to manipulate and adjust that strength just enough to distract without being overwhelmed. That's an edge, not an exact measure. Of course, we don't have information on using the power like that to suggest that its based on OP-strength, so that conclusion isn't fully supported either. See where I'm going? You're right, but overextending the logic.

[Luckers]

Actually I don't even see enough variables to suggest even 'negligeable differences'. It's stated several times that the closest one can come to judging the exact strength of two channelers in comparison to each other is in dueling. This is in effect the best and most accurate test for guaging and comparing strengths. Moghedian and Nynaeve tested themselves in this manner, and were exactly matched.

 

You're not going to find any comparisons of the strength of two channelers more accurate or exact than what we witnessed between those two at that point in time.

 

Don't get me wrong though. I understand the point you were making, and agree. This is all pointless semantics, I just have small tolerance for people who fall to 'you don't know that a hundred million percent, therefore my argument's just as valid!'

 

If nothing else such arguments show an appalling lack of understanding of the concept of percentages.

 

[Mr Ares]

Damn you, Luckers, saying everything I planned to say.

[Luckers]

And better. I truly am a douche.

[Mr Ares]

And better.

Let's not go nuts.

I truly am a douche.

Pre-empting me again....

[TheBeerPatriot]

This is in response to the original post by unassigned. Although I don't completely agree with that post, it was a well thought out analysis of WoT from a thematic standpoint.

 

For me, the first 5 books were great.  Lord of Chaos dipped down a bit, but was still ok.  Books 7-10 were the lull in the series, although big events took place in Books 7 and 9, the narrative really dragged.  Book 10 was where the series bottomed out.  KoD started wrapping up some minor plots but I found it uneven.  TGS really brought the series back, easily the best one since Fires of Heaven.

 

I do find Elayne's character annoying.  I liked her when the series started, but haven't found her character well developed.  Although I don't necessarily like Faile, I find her character complex and better developed as the series has gone on.

[lordofsoup]

another topic to fight about, has Nyneave reached her full potential yet? 

 

i dont think u can decide who is the strongest based on strength.  skill nearly as important.  nyneave and Moggy's fight was lame.  all they did was just try to shield the other from the source, no killing. 

[Arkelias]

This is my first post here in a long time, but I had to break my silence after reading this thread.

 

Unnassigned, if you search the boards you'll find a number of threads I posted that read very similarly to yours.  The longest was about the second half of the series, and what I perceived as its flaws.  In it I agreed with most of your points, particularly those in regards to books 7-10.

 

As I'm sure you've already found the reaction on these boards nearly always goes the same way.  You post a well thought out argument, Mr. Ares shows up to insult you and tell you why you don't have a right to your opinion and how pathetic your post is, and then his cronies chime in to support him.

 

Don't let it get you down.  There are many, many fanboys on these boards who will brook no criticism of the series regardless of how many people voice it.  Every month or two someone like you or I will show up, but we're generally chased away pretty quickly.

 

I just wanted you to know that there are people out there who agree with you.  A lot of them.  If you find yourself with free time wander over to Amazon and check the reviews on CoT, PoD or WH.  You'll find quite a few people agreeing with you.

 

Books 7-10 did take the focus off the action.  The pace slowed, the cast of characters ballooned and the focal points of the books were things many fans were not interested in.

 

The biggest sticking point I had is exactly the same as you.  Why wasn't there any sort of emotional payoff for the reader after the source was cleansed?  Part of the reason that CoT is the single most hated book in the series is that we all expected that topic to be a major part of it.

 

Instead it was largely ignored, and three books later it still hasn't been given the attention it deserves.  We still haven't seen the Black Tower's reaction.  Those few who do comment are like 'eh, so he cleansed the source'like he was going to the store for a pack of cigarettes instead of accomplishing the impossible.

 

Like you and many others I expected more, and was disappointed by it's absence.  Regardless of what the fan boys will tell you this was obviously a problem.  Otherwise, why did so many people react like we did?

 

That said I loved the series as a whole and tGS specifically.  I believe it's brought back the feel of the early books.  So much so that I volunteered to help with the book signing tour, and even had Brandon sign my book 'From the man who saved the Wheel of Time.'

 

It doesn't excuse the huge problems with the middle of the series, but if he can keep up the good work it means that the beginning and end will be amazing.  I can forgive the slow middle as long as the ending justifies the faith I placed in the series when I first started reading back in 1994.

 

Anyway keep your chin up and don't let the bastards grind you down!

[RUSH]

My problem with the after effects of the cleansing is different.  I think it makes complete sense that people don't believe Rand.  After all, if the crazy people are telling you they are no longer crazy, can you believe them?  My problem is I felt we should have seen the Black Tower's response, and it should have been a more polarizing event in Rand's group, between those who believe and those who don't.  Instead it's pretty much been ignored.

 

I realize there's big secret events going on in the Black Tower right now, which is why we haven't been allowed to see inside for some time, but I feel that's where RJ really stumbled.  You can't introduce the single biggest event in the book (thus far) and then boil the reaction down to a few pages of "maybe he really did, maybe he didn't, and now let's forget all about it and get back to our petty squabbles."  RJ set up a huge event, and then pretty much stopped talking about it as soon as it was over, which left fans hanging.

 

As far as the truth of it goes, we have the word of a few Aes Sedai who have linked with male channelers who say that Saidin, which they admit is already a raging tempest, no longer feels like it did before.  Is that enough to pat Rand on the back and tell him good job?  What is saidin supposed to feel like?  Aes Sedai don't know, and they have woefully inadequate experience with the Asha'man.  Three thousand years of stopping male channelers has left them in a position where they have no idea what a male channeler should be like in the absence of the taint.

 

In Randland, it's deeply ingrained into everyone that male channelers go mad.  Three thousand years of history, of children being raised from birth to believe it.  And unlike many of the things that people believe in Randland, this one is true.  So asking anyone to take anyone's word, especially the word of a male channeler, that saidin is clean is asking too much.  The automatic disbelief makes sense.

 

Even the very limited grudging acceptance that it might be true is believable.  When trusted Aes Sedai are saying they believe it, their word means something.  But how many Aes Sedai are linking with male channelers and would be in a position to testify?  Plus, the Dark One tainted saidin.  The idea that a mere mortal could undo the Dark One's work just seems straight-up impossible to many.

 

To expect that people would just stand up and say, "thanks for cleansing saidin, Rand, now we can go ahead and have male and female channelers work together, or add men into the White Tower, or whatever!" is blind fanboyism.  The taint may have originally started this, but it's tradition now, and tradition is one stubborn mule.  The cleansing, even if it could be proven true to the entire world, wouldn't suddenly get people working together again.  The WT was never built to house men, it has three thousand years of anti-male channeler history, and it's stuffed full of powerful people with huge egos and a dim view of anything that isn't an Aes Sedai.  Male and female channelers suddenly working arm-in-arm is not going to happen until they are forced to.  Aes Sedai as a whole will never willingly accept men back into the fold, even if it's just because they don't want to share power, and the men would likely refuse anyway.  Modern Aes Sedai are a self-serving, selfish, controlling lot, the exact opposite of the last time men could be called Aes Sedai.

 

And then there's the female channelers in the world who felt the cleansing, but have no access to male channelers and have no idea what happened.  "Cleansing saidin" isn't even on their list of possibilities, and the most likely explanation is the Forsaken did it.

 

So no, I don't think we should have seen any sort of cheering or celebrating, except possibly in the Black Tower, but since we didn't even get to see their reaction at all, aside from Logain thinking the Creator did it, the reactions felt appropriate.  My beef is that the cleansing, which is so significant that it should have affected many things from then on, was basically forgotten halfway through CoT and the series has proceeded largely as if it never happened.

 

[Zidel333]

This is my first post here in a long time, but I had to break my silence after reading this thread.

 

Unnassigned, if you search the boards you'll find a number of threads I posted that read very similarly to yours.  The longest was about the second half of the series, and what I perceived as its flaws.  In it I agreed with most of your points, particularly those in regards to books 7-10.

 

As I'm sure you've already found the reaction on these boards nearly always goes the same way.  You post a well thought out argument, Mr. Ares shows up to insult you and tell you why you don't have a right to your opinion and how pathetic your post is, and then his cronies chime in to support him.

 

Don't let it get you down.  There are many, many fanboys on these boards who will brook no criticism of the series regardless of how many people voice it.  Every month or two someone like you or I will show up, but we're generally chased away pretty quickly.

 

I just wanted you to know that there are people out there who agree with you.  A lot of them.  If you find yourself with free time wander over to Amazon and check the reviews on CoT, PoD or WH.  You'll find quite a few people agreeing with you.

 

Books 7-10 did take the focus off the action.  The pace slowed, the cast of characters ballooned and the focal points of the books were things many fans were not interested in.

 

The biggest sticking point I had is exactly the same as you.  Why wasn't there any sort of emotional payoff for the reader after the source was cleansed?  Part of the reason that CoT is the single most hated book in the series is that we all expected that topic to be a major part of it.

 

Instead it was largely ignored, and three books later it still hasn't been given the attention it deserves.  We still haven't seen the Black Tower's reaction.  Those few who do comment are like 'eh, so he cleansed the source'like he was going to the store for a pack of cigarettes instead of accomplishing the impossible.

 

Like you and many others I expected more, and was disappointed by it's absence.  Regardless of what the fan boys will tell you this was obviously a problem.  Otherwise, why did so many people react like we did?

 

That said I loved the series as a whole and tGS specifically.  I believe it's brought back the feel of the early books.  So much so that I volunteered to help with the book signing tour, and even had Brandon sign my book 'From the man who saved the Wheel of Time.'

 

It doesn't excuse the huge problems with the middle of the series, but if he can keep up the good work it means that the beginning and end will be amazing.  I can forgive the slow middle as long as the ending justifies the faith I placed in the series when I first started reading back in 1994.

 

Anyway keep your chin up and don't let the bastards grind you down!

 

*stands up and claps*

 

You sir are a scholar and a gentleman.

[Mr Ares]

another topic to fight about, has Nyneave reached her full potential yet?

I don't think so.

 

i dont think u can decide who is the strongest based on strength. skill nearly as important. nyneave and Moggy's fight was lame. all they did was just try to shield the other from the source, no killing.

That first sentence is quite poorly phrased. After all, surely strength is the only basis for comparing who's the strongest?

 

You post a well thought out argument,

No, that's the point, you don't. You post a rant about how disgruntled you are, that's not the same thing. Hence always being able to pick holes in your arguments. Apparently I'm so good at it that you've decided to try and make it personal.

 

There are many, many fanboys on these boards who will brook no criticism of the series regardless of how many people voice it.

Because the number of people voicing a given criticism means nothing. Not if that criticism is baseless. And it's also not much of a debate if we all just shrug our shoulders and say, "yeah, that sucked."

 

Why wasn't there any sort of emotional payoff for the reader after the source was cleansed? Part of the reason that CoT is the single most hated book in the series is that we all expected that topic to be a major part of it.

 

Instead it was largely ignored, and three books later it still hasn't been given the attention it deserves. We still haven't seen the Black Tower's reaction. Those few who do comment are like 'eh, so he cleansed the source'like he was going to the store for a pack of cigarettes instead of accomplishing the impossible.

The reaction we got is reasonable. The average person wouldn't believe or wouldn't care, and Rand and co. usually have more important things to worry about than telling people "we're not going to go any madder". The BT is being kept off stage for a reason. Why undermine that by having everyone be happy that the Source is now Cleansed? Also, we got Logain's reaction - the Creator did it. Why shouldn't the rest of the Asha'man feel the same? What did you expect, really? For me, it was about what we got. It was entirely reasonable that the reaction was as limited as it was. People have more important things to worry about. It doesn't make a huge difference to the WT or the rebels at this time, nor the population at large, nor the politicians, the armies. It makes a big difference to the BT, but showing up to tell them the Source has been Cleansed is somewhat redundant. They'll know. "Hmm, saidin is now clean." Then Rand shows up: "Saidin is now clean!", "We know." "I did it." "Doubt it." The world is saved, life goes on. There wasn't much to be gained through sending a message to the BT, and Rand was recovering, and then went onto more important things, like his truce with the Seanchan. You not liking it doesn't make it a flaw.

 

RUSH, good post.

[Paendragon]

When I first read WOT, I read strait through to book 8, and have been waiting for each book to come out since. By book 4 I was frustrated at the lack of communication and trust between the different factions of good guys, even among the inner core of characters, nobody was talking to one another. I could see that the world was totally divided and broken, and society had to be healed for the light to have a chance. It almost seemed like Rand was starting to figure it out too. By book 7, I was tired of Rand conquering cities, meeting hundreds of characters per book and attempting to keep track of allegiances.

 

I honestly stopped trying to pronounce names of new characters in my head until I saw them more than a few times... they became A-----, M------, D-----....

 

By book 10, I was convinced that even the ESSENTIAL plot lines would fill 2 or 3 books, that or wrap them up so quickly that the reader felt cheated. like RJ got bogged down in the details of the story, and forgot to keep it moving.(But when every word is over analyzed to death by fans.....) Every problem led to another and every plot arc split in two with each problem, and so few problems ever got fixed.

Although I agree with many of the original posters opinions on RJ's writing style, you have to be willing to forget about what you think RandLand should be like, and just take it for the world RJ created, like it or not....

 

Before you respond with "that's real life", let me say that real life does not make for good reading... Books 1 through 6 were fun reads, books 7 through 11 were.... less fun.

 

The gathering Storm was a fun read. for what its worth.

[Talmanes]

I think a lot of it though depends on when you read the books. When I started reading the WoT all the books except TGS were already out. Also I am a very fast reader so I went through them very fast. For me there were obvious things such as Perrin's rescue attempt etc. etc. that I think were slow and a little too drawn out, but I got past them and kept reading. So for me it was kinda slow but not too bad because I knew that I still had the next book for it to end in (although it took a few). For those that got to the slow parts and then had to wait a long time for the next book only to still have the same part unresolved, would seem much more slow and terribly drawn out.

 

On another note I do agree that the response to the cleansing is reasonable. I mean men channeling going mad was something taken for granted in the WoT world. If someone came up to you telling you something you have known and fared all your life is safe now would you really be quick to believe them? Most of us would be quick to just dismiss the notion as stupidity and put it out of our minds.

 

That being said though, I do also agree that some response out of the Black Tower would have been nice. The impossible was done and it concerns them more than anyone and we don't really see any reaction. Even some small POV from an Asha'man in the BT would've been nice. The story isn't over yet and I'm sure there will be some developments in and about the BT in the last two books. I mean Rand will have to go back there eventually.

[lordofsoup]

 

i dont think u can decide who is the strongest based on strength. skill nearly as important. nyneave and Moggy's fight was lame. all they did was just try to shield the other from the source, no killing.

That first sentence is quite poorly phrased. After all, surely strength is the only basis for comparing who's the strongest?

 

 

i know, im not very good at writing, i can talk a lot better

[Wingendosering]

I admit I only skimmed through about half of it, but I agree with you in some respects.  I don't believe development of characters went 'sideways' as you put it.  It's more just a shift in focus from adventure novel to political, which dies off from book 9-12 (granted I haven't read TGS yet).

 

I could find a hundred million little things to nitpick at regarding this series, but on the whole, it is my favourite fantasy series out there, simply because of its complexity, depth, and the system of magic RJ has established.  The wealth of characters do alot for the world as well.  I'm finding that the older I get, the more I appreciate these books in their complexity.

[Arkelias]

Removed. Argumentative.

 

*steps down off his soapbox* Now back to the part of the discussion that still seems relevant.

 

Ares said:

 

The reaction we got [to the cleansing]is reasonable. The average person wouldn't believe or wouldn't care, and Rand and co. usually have more important things to worry about than telling people "we're not going to go any madder".

 

In your opinion the reaction we got was reasonable.  In mine it was not.  I'm given point of views from farmers, random Aes Sedai, minor nobles and a host of others.  I couldn't get one chapter from an Asha'man's perspective?

 

I couldn't see his internal conflict and confusion?  His gossamyr hope that the source has been cleansed, and the realization that if it truly has he won't go insane?  

 

We couldn't have one person (say Egwene) shocked to her core that such a feat could even be performed?  Why didn't anyone react with shock?  We've been told over and over by the time the cleansing happens that everyone believed it imposible.

 

If something you believed completely impossible was done right after you felt enough power channeled to crack the world don't you think it might have a pretty big impact?  From the lowest Soldier or Dedicated to the ranks of the Aes Sedai to the Windfinders to the Wise ones, everyone should have been profoundly shocked.

 

The Asha'Man, though, should have had their entire world shifted on its axis.  Imagine if you accepted eventual madness as the price for working with the power.  You know it when you sign up with the Dragon Reborn, but you accept it because the last battle is coming.

 

Suddenly the taint is gone.  You have a glimmer of hope that maybe you can survive the last battle.  Maybe you won't go mad.  Don't you think this would have been a HUGE revelation for every male channeler in the world?  Even some who turned to the shadow may have done so for protection from the taint, and it might cause them to rethink their allegiance.

 

We saw none of that.  Instead we got one comment from Logain saying that he didn't believe Rand cleansed the source.  This was unsatisfying to me as the reader, because I would have expected Logain to have a more intelligent reaction.

 

He's sworn to follow Rand which suggests he believes that Rand can defeat the Dark One.  If he can do that why wouldn't he be able to cleanse the source?  Especially knowing that on the same day Logain felt the source become clean he sensed more of the one power than anyone had ever felt.

 

Is it really that short of a logical leap for him to go, "Hmm, Rand says he cleansed the source.  On that day enough power was channeled to do that.  Maybe, just maybe he managed to do it."

 

You're welcome to your opinion Ares, but my position is more than just baseless criticism.  RJ could have mined the cleansing for a lot more tension, and many readers would have enjoyed a much crisper emotional payoff.

 

I know that you disagree with my stance, and that of others.  But we are just as welcome as you are to have it.  Why don't you see if you can argue against my points without telling me my opinion is worthless or just being a prick in general?

 

We all like the Wheel of Time here.  Do you think maybe you could treat us as a community of equals and friends instead of punching bags for your amusement?  

[Temporal]

I can't (or won't rather) address all of the criticisms of the OP but I have to say I agree with general argument that things went seriously down hill around LoC. Sure there are a lot of specific instances and characters in the books that annoy me to no end, but I feel the more overreaching problems with the series can be summed up with some specific general problems.

 

WoT was my favorite Fantasy series for a long time. I eagerly awaited each new book. I started reading this series when I was 14, that was almost 17 years ago now and it still isn't finished. The last WoT book I bought was CoT, I read the first chapter and just couldn't make myself read anymore. It was mired in repetition, endless irrelevant detail and an unending flow of similarly named tertiary characters hogging the pages.

 

Once reviews of tGS started rolling in I thought that maybe it was time to finish the two books I never read and reread the ones I had to bring me up to speed. I am just now starting Winter's Heart so these issues are fresh in my mind.

 

There is a significant difference in quality and enjoyability from tEotW through FoH compared to everything that comes after. I read every word of the earlier books and considered it a good read. I have been skimming everything from LoC because it is beyond boring except for a few key events.

 

The most obvious problem is pacing. It seems that almost nothing happens. Instead of the earlier book formula that focused on 2–3 characters the books started focusing on every secondary and tertiary character in the series. To the point where you can't even follow the threads or remember characters names. There used to be arcs of several chapters where a main character would progress his/her story and throw in a montage chapter every once in a while of other characters perspectives. This was good. It kept the story moving and yet still gave you glimpses of interesting things from non-main characters. Suddenly you are going whole books when maybe one or two things of import happen and the rest of the time is eaten up by these characters that don't add anything of value.

 

Another problem that compounds this is repetition and needless detail. Paragraphs and sentences devoted to reiterating some pointless detail (e.g. someone's nationality) that was listed once already in the same chapter. Or something that should be well established about a main character. I mean, really, if you are reading book 6 of tWoT then you don't need to know that the black scarf Mat wears hides the scares he got while hanging from a tree in Ruihdean caused by the bloody foxes that he encountered when he went through the twisted redstone ter'angreal. You certainly don't need it repeated more than once in any one book. There are literally books worth of words in WoT that could be removed with no adverse effect. You can skim entire pages and not miss any information that carries the story forward or indeed that tells you anything you didn't know before.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the detail in WoT. It is what makes it stand out. However copious amounts of detail only works well in the context of something happening. It certainly doesn't work well applied to every single character in the series and even less so when it is repeated more than once. It is even more glaring when plot threads are continuously spawned and linger for several books. If they ever even get resolved.

 

I think more than idiotic and annoying characters that never seem to show growth, the pacing is the one thing that pretty much kills WoT for me past FoH. I really hope what I hear about tGS is true so I can quit skimming and start reading again.

[Luckers]

Keep things on track please.

[OptimusPrime]

I thought the first few books set the theme really well, kept me gripped more or less all the way. Supernatural things start happening to the boys, the whole fugitive outlook on it, blah blah.

 

I dont know about anyone else, but as soon as Rand announced his amnesty the seres really seemed to come alive. Did anyone else thing the scale of it seemed to jump way up high when Rand started gathering Ashaman; around this time we started seeing the story expand to allow dozens of significant lesser characters in. I want that back!

[Mr Ares]

The reaction we got [to the cleansing]is reasonable. The average person wouldn't believe or wouldn't care' date=' and Rand and co. usually have more important things to worry about than telling people "we're not going to go any madder".[/quote']

 

In your opinion the reaction we got was reasonable. In mine it was not. I'm given point of views from farmers, random Aes Sedai, minor nobles and a host of others. I couldn't get one chapter from an Asha'man's perspective?

 

I couldn't see his internal conflict and confusion? His gossamyr hope that the source has been cleansed, and the realization that if it truly has he won't go insane?

 

We couldn't have one person (say Egwene) shocked to her core that such a feat could even be performed? Why didn't anyone react with shock? We've been told over and over by the time the cleansing happens that everyone believed it imposible.

 

If something you believed completely impossible was done right after you felt enough power channeled to crack the world don't you think it might have a pretty big impact? From the lowest Soldier or Dedicated to the ranks of the Aes Sedai to the Windfinders to the Wise ones, everyone should have been profoundly shocked.

 

The Asha'Man, though, should have had their entire world shifted on its axis. Imagine if you accepted eventual madness as the price for working with the power. You know it when you sign up with the Dragon Reborn, but you accept it because the last battle is coming.

 

Suddenly the taint is gone. You have a glimmer of hope that maybe you can survive the last battle. Maybe you won't go mad. Don't you think this would have been a HUGE revelation for every male channeler in the world? Even some who turned to the shadow may have done so for protection from the taint, and it might cause them to rethink their allegiance.

 

We saw none of that. Instead we got one comment from Logain saying that he didn't believe Rand cleansed the source. This was unsatisfying to me as the reader, because I would have expected Logain to have a more intelligent reaction.

 

He's sworn to follow Rand which suggests he believes that Rand can defeat the Dark One. If he can do that why wouldn't he be able to cleanse the source? Especially knowing that on the same day Logain felt the source become clean he sensed more of the one power than anyone had ever felt.

 

Is it really that short of a logical leap for him to go, "Hmm, Rand says he cleansed the source. On that day enough power was channeled to do that. Maybe, just maybe he managed to do it."

 

RJ could have mined the cleansing for a lot more tension, and many readers would have enjoyed a much crisper emotional payoff.

RJ doesn't want us knowing too much about what is going on at the BT. That much should be clear from us not knowing much about what goes on there. So giving us an Asha'man perspective at the BT might harm the overall narrative, the effect RJ is going for while giving no real gain. There's no real reason for conflict unless it's from an Asha'man who joined the Shadow due to the promise of protection from the Taint, and that gives something away that RJ probably didn't want giving away - that the BT is a ripe recruiting ground for Darkfriends. There's not much real ground for conflict in Cleansing the Source, not from the perspective of Asha'man unless they are those Darkfriends. While it would be a huge thing for any male channeler, we don't need to be told it. It seems rather redundant. The other possible source of conflict, the cause of the Cleansing, is spelt out by Logain. We don't really need much more on that. They know it's been Cleansed, they are happy, but they are free to come to their own conclusions about who did it. For those in the world, the Creator doing it is reasonable - he's a god, he should be capable. People pray to him, there is some measure of faith, so it is not an unreasonable conclusion. Logain didn't join Rand's cause because he was a true believer. He didn't have much choice over where to go. Where else would a male channeler be safe than the heart of an organisation of male channelers. Safety in numbers. He doesn't need to be particularly fond of Rand to think some of the things Taim is doing are a bit dubious, and act against them (by trying to warn Rand, for one thing). It's not really an unintelligent reaction for Logain to think "more of the OP than any human could manage was channeled, the Source was Cleansed, therefore something more than human was Cleansing the Source." As for female channeler groups, they wouldn't be all that affected in the short term. Yes, it is shocking. But most of them have a vested interest in the status quo, and millennia of prejudice are not shaken off overnight. For the AS, it doesn't matter that much that the Source is Clean, they still think they should be running the show. They don't think they should be equal with men, or anyone. They are AS, they stand above them. This will cause conflict in the long term, but they still see themselves as better than Asha'man, even though the Asha'man will no longer go insane. Everyone has more important things, from their perspective, to worry about, and the Cleansing, something big but that hasn't really impacted on them yet, could easily be lost in the shuffle. The only exceptions, the Asha'man, are being kept off screen, so there's really no-one left in the story to be exceptionally jubilant about what happened. Those who were actually there lost friends or comrades, things that sort of take the edge off the joy of victory.

[Luckers]

I'm drunk and I read none of that, so here is what I would say to you. White space. Paragraphs. Go nuts.

 

 

[Agitel]

I think a POV of Grady or Neald would have been enough for commentary. They've been out of the Black Tower for some time. Perrin noted their very positive reactions after the Cleansing, and then later comments on their claims that the Source has been cleansed, but he dismisses it pretty much because he's focused on Faile.

 

As for pacing, I do think most of the characters fell into character arcs that span three books, and that hurt the series for some. It doesn't bother me too much, I love the details. Thankfully most of those arcs wrapped up in KoD.

 

[Arkelias]

RJ doesn't want us knowing too much about what is going on at the BT. That much should be clear from us not knowing much about what goes on there. So giving us an Asha'man perspective at the BT might harm the overall narrative, the effect RJ is going for while giving no real gain.

 

I think this is one of the few major flaws in the series.  It's obvious that RJ doesn't want us to know what's going on at the Black Tower, but the entire plot has been badly handled from the start.

 

From Rand ignoring Logain's warning to him accepting Taim in the first place, we as the reader basically knew how things were going to play out from the very beginning.  Anyone with half a brain realizes that there will be a bit of a civil war, after which Taim will be deposed and Logain will rise to power.

 

Yet for book after book this subject has been ignored.  For thousands of pages we've followed Perrin on his quest for Faile.  We've watched Elayne take the throne of Andor.  We've seen perspectives from many of the factions, including the Salidar Aes Sedai.

 

Yet the black tower still hasn't been addressed over a decade and five books later.  We still haven't seen the inevitable clash between Logain and Taim.  We never saw how the revalation of the source being cleansed might effect life in the tower for your average dedicated or soldier.

 

You think that perspective is unneccesary, and even called it a bit redudant.  To me that scene would have been very, very gripping to read because it was something that as a reader I was very curious about.  Obviously that's true of many other readers, as this complaint comes up on the boards often.

 

There's no real reason for conflict unless it's from an Asha'man who joined the Shadow due to the promise of protection from the Taint, and that gives something away that RJ probably didn't want giving away - that the BT is a ripe recruiting ground for Darkfriends.

 

I agree about RJ probably not wanting to give anything away.  Whatever his intention though he did give a lot away.  We all know the tower is a ripe recruiting grounds for darkfriends.  We all knew nearly from the start that Taim was a darkfriend, so this was not a very great leap to make.

 

Given how much we as the reader know it greatly surprises me that RJ didn't move this story line forward.  Obviously much of the reader base wants to know what's going on there.  Much more than we cared about Perrin's endless quest for Faile, or Elayne's taking of the throne of Andor.

 

If you feel that showing the Asha'Man is redundant, couldn't you make the same argument about Perrin or Elayne?  In both cases we knew exactly how the events would play out.  And, in KoD they ended exactly as we expected with no surprises.  Elayne ended up on the throne, and Perrin got Faile back.

 

I don't understand how you can defend the repetition in this series, but then say that a part that's entirely missing is redundant.  The endless descriptions of terciary characters was redundant, yet you seem ok with that.  What's the difference?  That's an honest question as I don't see it, and am curious if you do.

 

We don't really need much more on that. They know it's been Cleansed, they are happy, but they are free to come to their own conclusions about who did it.

 

How do we know they are happy?  And how do we know what conclusions they are coming to?  We haven't been told.  People like myself are curious to know the answer, and would have greatly appreciated this being addressed.

 

Cleansing the source was an epic event.  It's reaction should have been equally epic.  Many, many people were dearly hoping to see it addressed with the same flare as Rand becoming the Dragon Reborn and the Car'a'carn.  We were disappointed when that didn't happen.

 

Tegardless of what RJ intended, in this he erred.  From book 7-10 many mistakes were made, this not the least of them.  You're welcome to your opinion on that, but it doesn't invalidate those who feel otherwise.

 

Thanks for keeping it civil Mr. Ares, you have no idea how much I appreciate that.  I will make sure that my tone matches.  I apologize for the vitriol in my earlier post.  That was out of line.

[Talmanes]

I'm drunk and I read none of that, so here is what I would say to you. White space. Paragraphs. Go nuts.

 

 

Well I disagree if you were really drunk we should see some more reaction. Maybe we should argue about this for about, I don't know, nine pages or so.

LOL.

 

Come on guys seriously!

 

Let's get back to the original topic which is in case we've all forgotten: personal opinions and more specifically flaws of the wheel of time.

One thing that I didn't like is when some characters are just ignored for a time. I am not speaking of the BT there is a reason for that, I mean like right after the whole Perrin/Two Rivers climax he was completely absent from the next book. Also I have always liked RJ's style of having lots of different POVs for the whole story. I liked it like that much more than when it only focuses on a few plot lines like the whole Perrin saving Faile ordeal and such.

[Luckers]

I'm drunk and I read none of that, so here is what I would say to you. White space. Paragraphs. Go nuts.

 

 

Well I disagree if you were really drunk we should see some more reaction. Maybe we should argue about this for about, I don't know, nine pages or so.

LOL.

 

 

I am a very stable drunk. Now if you will excuse me the elephant wants to use the computer for a bit.