Fantasy books with non-traditional gender roles.

[alligator]

Hi, so I am a lover of the fantasy genre, but one of the things that continues to bother me about them is how insistent the authors always are about using worn out, cliched, and prejudiced gender roles. They can be fun, but when there is so much variation elsewhere, why must they all return to the same tired ideas? Men love to "wench," women are controlling brats, girls will willingly have sex with the man they love who they barely know, guys are the only ones who can really do anything that is not a declared specialty of women.

The Wheel of Time series definitely has this problem, I'm currently reading A Game of Thrones and it seems to be similar, the Lord of the Rings- while better than some- still has these ideas (aside from Arwen, there are virtually no women in the series).

I know that not all the characters in these series are like this, but I still don't know why authors have to subscribe to these redundant ideas.

 

So!

Any thoughts on books with good characters who don't subscribe to the traditional gender roles?

[Werthead]

ASoIaF is a two-edged sword. Unlike WoT, it isn't trying to do something radical with gender roles. The series is based on the historical reality of the Middle Ages, and the historical reality of the Middle Ages is that women did not have a lot of power outside of certain roles and exceptions (Eleanor of Aquitaine, Joan of Arc, the Empress Maude etc). ASoIaF actually employs a lot of those roles and exceptions: Catelyn, Cersei and Daenerys have a lot of power and influence; Brienne, Asha, Dacey and Maege have martial and warrior skills which aren't accepted by most men; Arya and Sansa grow into positions of power and influence (of one sort or another) as the series progresses. Judging the series' gender roles based on the first book alone would be a mistake.

[alligator]

Alright. I shouldn't judge solely on the first book (which I haven't even finished), it's true; it can just be so disheartening to see what appears to be characters fitting resoundingly with these dumb gender roles. So far, it seems that Arya and Dany are the only females who are not either soft fools or conniving and cold-hearted. Catelyn hasn't shown herself to be either yet, too, but I feel as if she might actually be pretty conniving if pushed in the right direction.

Thanks for the hope!  :)

[fifellee]

Hi, so I am a lover of the fantasy genre, but one of the things that continues to bother me about them is how insistent the authors always are about using worn out, cliched, and prejudiced gender roles...

 

Try Imajica by Clive Barker...

 

Definitely not a worn out, cliched book on gender roles

[Corki]

Try Fiona McIntosh's The Quickening series. While it does have some traditional gender roles, there are some great twists and turns to the gender roles. I don't want to give too much away just in case I spoil it. I found it thoroughly entertaining, and a real breath of fresh air in the fantasy genre.

[Sirayn]

Badass female characters ...

 

The heroine of Joe Abercrombie's Best Served Cold is a ruthless mercenary.

 

Scott Lynch's Red Seas under Red Skies (sequel to The Lies of Locke Lamora) features what Lynch described as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for black single mothers. She's a pirate captain, and she's awesome. :D

 

I enjoyed the female love interest in Paul Kearney's The Mark of Ran. Kearney writes some pretty dark stuff.

 

Screwy gender roles ...

 

Lynn Flewelling's Tamir Triad trilogy, beginning with The Bone Doll's Twin, plays with gender roles. I'm not sure if I can explain how without spoiling the twist.

 

Anne Bishop's Black Jewels series is an interesting case. Traditional gender roles are reinforced by the fact that the men protect the women, but the women are more powerful and their job is to rule. I loved the trilogy because of the male characters, but the protagonist is female and she has close friendships with other female characters and the series (unusually) passes the Bechdel test. The Black Jewels stuff does a lot of weird things with gender roles. I came away feeling like gender roles were being more reinforced than subverted, but I also really enjoyed the series.

 

What not to read if you're wound up by gender roles in fantasy: Matthew Stover's Heroes Die.

[Rufae]

David B. Coe's Winds of the Forelands series has women in positions of influence and power. Very nice read.

 

MacCaffery's Dragonriders of Pern has a strong female influence.

[Werthead]

What not to read if you're wound up by gender roles in fantasy: Matthew Stover's Heroes Die.

 

Or Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy. I like it a lot, but his treatment of women is somewhat dubious (although apparently deliberate, due to in-universe backstory reasons) and I think it's interesting that out of the many female readers of SF&F I know who love ASoIaF, WoT, Lynch, Abercrombie, Rothfuss etc, I think only one didn't have massive problems with the PoN trilogy based on its gender roles.

[Rinkai]

I'm going to disagree.

There are so many female characters that the entire spectrum is covered from cliche to um... not...cliche.

 

[Ashaman DeRouge]

Hi, so I am a lover of the fantasy genre, but one of the things that continues to bother me about them is how insistent the authors always are about using worn out, cliched, and prejudiced gender roles...

Try Imajica by Clive Barker...

 

Definitely not a worn out, cliched book on gender roles

 

I just read the synopsis on Wikipedia, that sounds -amazing- ... thanks for sharing!

[Lilbaz]

WOT, Aes Sedai rule the continent.

 

Anyway women belong in the kitchen or the bedroom not waving swords about.. runs for cover

 

Seriously though, I am suprised that there are so many women interested in fantasy books. Mostly men follow the genre so most of the heroes are going to be male. David Gemmell did a series can't remember the name but the hero is a battle queen who is quite a ruthless bitch, which was quite refreshing. But even the female writers Weis/Hickman/Robin Hobb mostly have male heroes.

[Sirayn]

Seriously though, I am suprised that there are so many women interested in fantasy books. Mostly men follow the genre so most of the heroes are going to be male. David Gemmell did a series can't remember the name but the hero is a battle queen who is quite a ruthless bitch, which was quite refreshing. But even the female writers Weis/Hickman/Robin Hobb mostly have male heroes.

 

My understanding is that women are a majority of readers, period, and that also holds true within fantasy.

[Lilbaz]

Not trying to be sexist, but the streotype of a fantasy reader would probably not be a women. This is changing and that is for the better. The more people interested in the genre means that their will be more people interested in writing for that genre and I quite like to see their veiw on things.

 

I maybe worng but none of my female friends or exes had any interest in fantasy apart from the odd Harry Potter or Twilight.

[Sirayn]

Not trying to be sexist, but the streotype of a fantasy reader would probably not be a women. This is changing and that is for the better. The more people interested in the genre means that their will be more people interested in writing for that genre and I quite like to see their veiw on things.

 

I maybe worng but none of my female friends or exes had any interest in fantasy apart from the odd Harry Potter or Twilight.

 

Some subgenres of fantasy are completely dominated by women. Urban fantasy, for example, and its close cousin paranormal romance. The writers are female, the readers are female. Perhaps epic fantasy is less female-dominated, but then epic fantasy isn't so popular.

 

(I counter your anecdote with my anecdote: All my female friends are into fantasy. The women in my family are into fantasy, the men are not.)

[Lilbaz]

I think you just made me blush  ;)

[Lilbaz]

Have to admit that when I think of fantasy I think mostly of armies, magic etc... my ignorance and I do appologise.

[Sirayn]

No worries. I only ever read epic fantasy growing up, but now I'm a little more wired in to the publishing world, I think that epic fantasy is a comparatively dead genre. What's selling like hot cakes is female-authored romance-heavy urban fantasy and paranormal romance with female protagonists for a female audience.

[Lilbaz]

I think with the likes of True Blood, Vampire Diaries and Twighlight they may need to expand a bit more especially in the case of the love torn heroine who needs to toughen up a bit. Can't say that I've read any just watched the TV shows which I love. Tbh I agree with you that Epic fantasy needs changing and has through the likes of GRRM but think that historical novels like BErnard Cornwell and Con Oggulden have probably stolen a few of the readers. But I'm 31 and still a big kid at heart who loves to see the heroe kick the crap out of anything that comes his way especially if he is an anti heore who will do whatever he can to get the job done.

[Lilbaz]

Just had a look at the best seller lists and I see wqhat you mean.

[alligator]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I'll be sure to look into those!

(And be sure to avoid the Prince of Nothing (?) series. hehe)