What's Going on at the Black Tower? (Full Spoilers)

[Vulgir]

 

In Caemlyn (in Eye of the World), Rand saw what a badass Logain was. That's the Logain we're still waiting to see.  Let the false Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

I like Logain the way he is, and i really like the part where Logain talks about seeing Rand in Caemlynn, and says something like he was going to cause more trouble than himself then let out a laugh.

 

Logain, can see ta'veren, which is why he laughed. Much like Loial can.

 

Can you provide a quote with this? i assumed it was becuase he could sense Rands ability to channel, and i dont recall Loial can sense ta'veren as well.

[Sentinel78]

Logain saw a 'glow' around Rand, which is consistent with how Siuan describes the Talent to see Ta'veren.  It's in Book 4 or 5 somewhere before Logain is Healed. 

 

This might be a set-up for Logain being identify a fake Rand (Illusion) by Demandred or Taim or someone else.  Eh, maybe.

[Alternate34]

While Rand ignoring the BT is frustrating, I think the explanation of his action is that he knows of no prophecy that dictates he should.  He has been pretty beholden to the prophecies.  His desire to make a deal with the Seanchan is all in accordance with North-East/South_West prophecy.

 

I think that the BT confrontation may be very bloody and violent as compared to the WT unification.  It is a plot device to further emphasize the divide between sexes.

[randfandom]

While Rand ignoring the BT is frustrating, I think the explanation of his action is that he knows of no prophecy that dictates he should.  He has been pretty beholden to the prophecies.  His desire to make a deal with the Seanchan is all in accordance with North-East/South_West prophecy.

 

I think that the BT confrontation may be very bloody and violent as compared to the WT unification.  It is a plot device to further emphasize the divide between sexes.

 

I agree about the BT confrontation being bloody and violent - and we have Elaida's foretelling of that as well (the BT will be rent by blood and fire and sisters will walk its ruins, or something like this).

 

However, I don't think Rand ignores the BT. He took out at least half the "trusted" Ash'aman and Logain's absense in tGS suggestes he was sent over there to settle Taim. I am sure we'll see that in ToM.

 

[Alternate34]

If there is any "on-screen" indication that Rand sent Logain to clear up the BT rumblings, I'd like to see it.  I don't remember reading that.

 

As to an "off-screen" secret meeting where Rand tell Logain to fix the BT,I find that doubtful.  First, Logain's absence doesn't at all indicate that Rand sent him to fix the BT.  In fact, I think it is evidence against Rand doing that.  He doesn't trust Logain so he keeps away.  There is evidence for this in the previous books.  He has a frosty relationship with the former False Dragon.  Rand isn't trusting to begin with, and he has very good reasons to distrust someone who claimed to be the Dragon before him.

 

Rand taking his trusted Ash'aman with him doesn't really indicate he wants to clean up the BT.  It indicates he considers everything else he is doing more important than the BT.  If Rand was concerned about the BT, he would leave his most trusted Ash'aman there as they wouldn't need his supervision.  You know, keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

 

If Logain is taking care of the BT, I would imagine it would be a freelance job.  He loves those guys.

[Crael123]

 

In Caemlyn (in Eye of the World), Rand saw what a badass Logain was. That's the Logain we're still waiting to see.  Let the false Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

 

I like Logain the way he is, and i really like the part where Logain talks about seeing Rand in Caemlynn, and says something like he was going to cause more trouble than himself then let out a laugh.

 

Logain, can see ta'veren, which is why he laughed. Much like Loial can.

 

Can you provide a quote with this? i assumed it was becuase he could sense Rands ability to channel, and i dont recall Loial can sense ta'veren as well.

 

its in the beginning of tGH. it is mentioned im sure of it i just cant remeber the exact page

[Sentinel78]

Book 6, right after Nynaeve healed Logain in Chpt. 30, "To Heal Again", Logain is trying to put Nynaeve at ease and let her know he's not going to go ballistic now that he can channel again after they realize he's been Healed:

 

"You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble than I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; I don't know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. He was far away, but I saw a ... a glow, and I knew he'd shake the world. Caged as I was, I couldn't help laughing."

[Sharaman]

A few points. Graendal thinks of using compulsion on the messenger - she wouldn't if she thought he was a channeler holding Saidin (that is, if she thought he opened the gate). Hence, she doesn't id him as Ashaman - nor does she make that call in her PoV about Moridin's workers in the Blight Castle. This doesn't necessarily mean they aren't Ashaman.

 

Loial says "You are three Ta'veren" when he meets them in EotW and agrees to guide them on the Ways. Logain describes his reaction to seeing Rand "glow like the Sun", in LoC, I think. Definitely not recognising him as a channeler - much more consistent with Nicola's recognition of Mat shining in LoC.

 

One can reasonably assume that the 100-odd intimates with Taim are rogue Ashaman. His close cicrle of intimates also know his connections with the Chosen and treat him with the same respect as they treat the Chosen if we go by the WH PoVs of Rochaid, Kisman and co.

 

At the BT, you have three groups of AS there - one lot bonded, one lot looking to bond with Rand' permission and one lot on their individual initiative.

Logain may not be there - we don't know where he went after Tear, and the SeaFolk missions.

Taim almost certainly has three lots of Ashaman to deal with, his own boys, Logain's boys and an uncommitted bunch.

Not a picnic because there's lots of potential for strife between any of the three lots of AS, of the Ashaman and various combinations of the two sets of channelers.

The WT AS don't know Travelling but the rest do. Plus the BT is reasonably close to Caemlyn and hence, not too far from TV, even for non-travellers.

So a month without any news from either Rand's PoV or Egwene's PoV is b-aad news.

Lan's on the road else we would have at least negative confirmation about Myrelle's health.

Pevara and co. didn't have warders.

The other Salidar AS may have taken their other warders with them.

 

[Sentinel78]

Faolain was part of the rebel AS that went to the Black Tower right?  We know she ends up OK because Min doesn't like her and yet had a viewing where she said "If there was any fairness, you'd think she'd have something bad in her future" or something like that.  So we can probably assume they weren't killed outright or anything 'too' bad.  What I'm guessing Taim did was let them pick who they wanted to bond, but then told the Ashaman to bond the Aes Sedai instead.  Seems consistent with what we know about Taim, and then the Ashaman could just have told them not to leave and they'd have to obey.

[Kaveman26]

I have lurked through a lot of speculation across multiple volumes of the series and I one thing I have seen fairly little speculation on is the level of Taim's insanity. He channeled for quite some time before the Cleansing and outwardly shows little signs of it affecting him.

 

I have seen various theories on him being a Forsaken in disguise (most of which are disproved), a fair amount of pondering as to whether he is a Forsaken's lackey (plausible), and fair amount of theory on him being forcibly turned to the shadow (likely).

 

It would be interesting to see events unfold that incorporate his own madness into whatever schemes he is involved. We know he is arrogant and a bit of a meglomaniac. He craves power and standing. All of which make him an ideal candidate in the Dark One recruitment.

 

What Im guessing is happening at the Black Tower is this...Taim is looking to become Naeblis. He may have been trained by Sammy/Ishy/Demy in some manner, but I don't think he views himself as a subordinate. Whether the result of a forcible turning amping up his own ego and ambition, or taint induced delusions of granduer he is not what I think of as a lackey. He may very well be training up a group of dark Ashaman, but i think they are for his purposes not any of the Forsaken.

 

I don't see any plausible scenario where he is going to turn out to be a force for good. I do think that Demandred/Ishy think they have a servant and in truth they have a new peer. When there was the duplicate order from Taim and Demandred to kill Rand, many assumed it was Taimandred. I think it was Taim posing as Demandred and relaying the orders to cast doubt on Demy. Taim may be posing as Sammuel to create dissension or confusion amongst the other Forsaken and sending Trollocs into the Ways. Hell he might be crazy enough to believe that he IS Sammuel reborn.

 

I suspect that more than Rand is in for a surprise in Towers. When everything cracks at the Black Tower I almost expect the Forsaken are going to be in for a realll surprise.

[randfandom]

If there is any "on-screen" indication that Rand sent Logain to clear up the BT rumblings, I'd like to see it.  I don't remember reading that.

 

There is no such quote, but Logain's absense (along with the rest of the Ash'aman who bonded sisters) is highly suggestive. Note that in the two earlier books Logain was high on Rand's trusted Ash'aman list (despite the mutual dislike between them). He was sent by Rand as a personal emissary to both the Seanchan and the Seafolk; and he fought with Rand both against the Trollocs and Semirhage. We know that Logain was strongly pushing to resolve the BT situation and that Rand also saw it as high priority - in KoD he was trying to decide whether to first deal with the BT or with the Seanchan. It makes a lot of sense to assume that following the Semirhage debacle he would turn his sights to Taim.

 

In fact, I think it is evidence against Rand doing that.  He doesn't trust Logain so he keeps away.  There is evidence for this in the previous books.  He has a frosty relationship with the former False Dragon.  Rand isn't trusting to begin with, and he has very good reasons to distrust someone who claimed to be the Dragon before him.

 

I agree that Rand is quite suspicious of Logain, but as I pointed out above, he nevertheless gave him confidential and important tasks. He also knows of Min's viewing of Logain (which she mentions to Rand in either book 10 or 11 and that he in fact tells Logain about, in KoD - after which Logain starts wearing his sigil). Rand never show warmth towards any Ash'aman, except Fedwin Mor when he went insane.

 

If Rand was concerned about the BT, he would leave his most trusted Ash'aman there as they wouldn't need his supervision.  You know, keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.

 

Not if Logain was able to convince him that Taim is engaged in staging a coup. In that case, they need to remove loyalists before Taim's troops turn on them. Sending Ash'aman with bonded sisters against Taim is best, because they can form circles.

 

If Logain is taking care of the BT, I would imagine it would be a freelance job.  He loves those guys.

 

Nope, Rand already gave him a tongue lashing about acting independently in bonding the Aes Sedai. He won't go against orders, nor appropriate tens of Ash'aman, for something as big as attacking Taim and the BT, without express permission or orders from Rand. Of course, it may be that the crisis gets initiated by Taim when Logain returns to the BT on Rand's orders, in order to take more Ash'aman. Either way, I am sure that Logain's absense is due to the BT conflict - whether it already reached its climax or not.

[Mr. Dragon]

Loial says "You are three Ta'veren" when he meets them in EotW and agrees to guide them on the Ways. Logain describes his reaction to seeing Rand "glow like the Sun", in LoC, I think. Definitely not recognising him as a channeler - much more consistent with Nicola's recognition of Mat shining in LoC.

Loial deduced that the three boys were ta'vern from listening to their tale, he doesn't have a Talent for seeing ta'vern.

[southwind505]

I think the talent for seeing Ta'veren is a human thing, Loial seems to feel Ta'veren like he felt the waygates.

[Sentinel78]

Loial admits no Talent to seeing ta'veren, but doesn't rule it out for all Ogier.  Eye of the world, Chpt 36:

 

"I didn't say you were, but I could almost feel the Pattern swirl just listening to you tell your tale, and I have no Talent there. You are ta'veren, all right. You, and maybe your friends, too." The Ogier paused, rubbing the bridge of his broad nose thoughtfully. Finally he nodded to himself as if he had reached a decision. "I wish to travel with you, Rand."

[Diederichos]

So, Pevara might not get some full screentime in ToM, is that confirmed/rumoured?

[WolfTwins]

TSR ch5

Joiya shrugged. “As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al’Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al’Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years.”

Was it a lie?

(BFed Rahvin... BT... Caemlyn... remaining of the 13 BA.)

Rand came to Caemlyn and killed Rahvin and that changed the scheme;

Could Rahvin supported a false Dragon?

When Taim appeared, what else could he done, he joined to the DR;

In Caemlyn was a Darkfriend "cell" to which, later on, connected the remaining of the 13 BA from WT;

Were they there only for The Lion Throne, for Elayne?

The plan could be still going on, not with a false Dragon but with a Leader.

[TheAngryDruid]

Interesting topic, and we only have clues to go on, but here's my two cents.

 

1) We know Taim has some DF's with him.

 

First, via the "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" quote and laughter when Pevara's group of Reds get there. Seems a bit of a stretch for them not to know the origin of the phrase. Plus, Taim gave order's for Asha'man to kill Rand, and they obeyed. Killing the Dragon Reborn is almomst inherently a DF act at this point. Or a deranged one.

 

2) We don't know how many, or how openly he is training them. Or if they are forcibly turning Asha'man to being DF's (or even if Taim was similalry turned). And we don't know their numbers, but we do know Taim has a significant number with him (at least 100), and they are all full Asha'man. Hopefully, there are many more Soldiers and Dedicated than Asha'man. Rough guess is there are about 100 overall.

 

3) We know the rebel embassy is probably OK, and will probably remain so. Myrelle's death or serious harm would cause Lan to react (no sign of that), one would think. And Min's viewing of Faolin are indicative. However, something bad could happen to the rest of them, and Faolin escapes.

 

4) We know Pevara's group is in seemingly more peril.

 

5) Elayne is close to the BT, I'd imagine Eggy would visit her in T'A'R and tell her to send some sitters/channelers and find out what the heck is going on. She can be there in a day.

 

[Crael123]

So, Pevara might not get some full screentime in ToM, is that confirmed/rumoured?

 

sanderson confirmed it in a video. and we will also get a 411 on the going ons of the BT

[lordofsoup]

hopefully in the prologue.  i really want to know.  i dont see any way that Taim is not a DF, but it is possible that he is not, as we are dealing with RJ and he likes to screw with our minds

[Diederichos]

All I'm saying is that Pevara needs to get severe awesome things done and the Red Ajah needs to shine.

[Mr. Insane]

  What are the odds the 80 displaced black ajah show up at the black tower?  or even all 130ish BA still unaccounted for? 

 

  In KoD Duhara tries to convince Elayne to take her in as an aes sedai advisor.  It is assumed she is still in caemlyn, but I suspect she might show up at the black tower as well.  I find it quite strange even for a BA that a sitter would be sent to advise a queen, with so much political turmoil at the white tower.

 

 

[mossman87]

  What are the odds the 80 displaced black ajah show up at the black tower?  or even all 130ish BA still unaccounted for? 

 

   In KoD Duhara tries to convince Elayne to take her in as an aes sedai advisor.  It is assumed she is still in caemlyn, but I suspect she might show up at the black tower as well.  I find it quite strange even for a BA that a sitter would be sent to advise a queen, with so much political turmoil at the white tower.

 

 

 

I would say 99% chance.  Really seems like the LB will be concentrated in the Caemlyn/Far Madding/Murandy/Black Tower area.

[Sharaman]

I'd be very surprised if the whole flipping lot showed up in one place. That's not how the minions of GLoD work.

Some of them might arrive at the BT, the others would probably be tasked to do different things.

 

[Crael123]

An extremely powerful BA and a dark ash'aman would be quite the team. and I think that if a ton of BAs show up in the BT and perava's group is still there it would cause problems. hahaha. but i have also wondered whether or not Taim was holding the group captive...... waiting......  ;D

[Bastor]

Why does everyone keep assuming that Taim is a Darkfriend....IMHO he is just an arrogant crazy male channeller. I mean he has been channelling for what...10+ years? Most men go insane after jut a few months...

I am thinking crazy Taim has gone mad with power and is making his own "elite squad".

The LoC saying isn't really restricted only to DFs, is it?

In the ending of KoD he is just teasing the Aes Sedai like saying "Hey if you can find anyone willing to become your warder go ahead and bind em 'hahahahaha'"

 

About the Demi connection (no I am not going to be the 50milionth person to say Taim=Demi don't worry). If Taim is a DF I am voting that he is like....a new forsaken since I don't really see him as any sort of lackey to any of the forsaken. Demi thinks he is his subordinate tho and that is why he states he actually has an army. (On a totally different topic which army does Demi have in his palm? I mean he states he has a ready army at one of the Chosen only tea parties but there are only so many armies in the world. Two armies are brought to mind:

*The prophets army (Which he does not yet know is crushed...tho not very likely...I mean sure the Prophet has been influenced by a Forsaken (he thinks about the visions of Rand he has had but they sound TOO much like the way forsaken appear) but he hardly has something one would call and army

*BT....nuff said :P )