Tarmon Gai'don. When Will It Begin? How Will It Be Launched? (Full Spoilers)

[WMTom]

I think TG has been going on since the beginning.  Each book of the series has taken us through a/several battles in that war.  The strike at SG will be the final act.

 

I do not think Rand is alone in the trip down into the mountain, the three shall be one.  I think this refers to two different threes. 

 

1st Three people Rand and two unknown women (likely Alivia and Nynaeve)

    Callandor is most effective when used by a man and two women linked.

 

2nd The three powers Saidin, Saidar and the true power

    True Power to hold the DO.

    Saidin and Saidar to reseal/remake the bore.

    This provides the separation of Saidin and Saidar from the DO preventing the taint.  True power comes from the DO, there for touching the DO will not taint the one powers.

    LTT said he had to touch the dark one with Saidin to hold him back and then work on the seals.

 

Anyway, that is my take on the whole of it.

 

[Terez]

I think Luckers had this quote in mind when he named the thread, so I'm not sure why he didn't share:

 

WorldCon 8 August 2009 - Dom reporting

 

Brandon drew a graph of A Memory of Light's structure and explained in some details how he ended up re structuring it as three books. Not much that isn't already known in there, book 12 will have two main story lines (we know it's Rand and Egwene, but as I said Brandon didn't say so explicitly at the Q&A) and teasers for three more (Mat - and seemingly Perrin and Elayne)9. By 'teasers', Brandon precised he means 3 or 4 chapters per story line, the rest of the chapters being divided between the two main story lines (by recent books, this could means Egwene/Rand have about 10-12 chapters each, or a few more). Some developments happen in the teasers but it's not huge stuff, more like setup chapters for what happens in book 13.

 

Book 13 will have the opposite, with 3-4 chapters each for Egwene and Rand, "toward the end". Brandon kept those for book 13 to avoid spoiling in The Gathering Storm the climax of book 13, which will mark the reunion of all the main story lines at some location, and launch Tarmon Gai'don. So in book 13 we will have the residual Rand/Egwene chapters that specifically build up to the reunion.

So, Tarmon Gai'don has not yet begun officially, and apparently will not until the climax of TOM.

 

Anyway, those of you who have read my theorizing on the subject know that I think the Last Battle will be launched by Rand's death.  I don't think the 'great battle' of Nicola's Foretelling refers to the Last Battle.  That is of course what we are supposed to think, but it doesn't make sense for several reasons:

 

1.  The land is, at the point of time depicted in the Foretelling (and in the Wise Ones' Dream), still divided by the Return.  We know the two must be as one for Rand to be able to win the Last Battle.  Some have suggested that it will only be a temporary truce, but with the way that Mat and Tuon's marriage has been set up to make peace between Seanchan and Randland, I highly doubt it.

 

2.  Rand's body is central to both the Foretelling and the Dream, with the future teetering on the edge of a blade, a balance shifting first one way and then the other.  This suggests that Rand is still highly important.  If the Last Battle were done, he wouldn't be crucial any more.

 

3.  The future teeters on the edge of a blade...why?  The Seanchan?  I don't think that the wording really fits the conflict with the Seanchan.  It seems a lot more dire than that, IMO.

 

In conclusion, I think that the 'great battle' refers to the Battle of Caemlyn that is on the horizon.  That would be the place where the main story lines all reunite, the event that launches Tarmon Gai'don.  It will probably mostly be Seanchan vs. Randland, though there is certainly some opportunity for the Black Tower to be involved (though I think that Brandon's comments indicate that the Black Tower will be end game material).  I think that Rand will die there, and that a number of Lightfriends will contribute to his death (Mat, Elayne, Alivia, Gawyn, and Moiraine).  He will have to be brought back from the dead to finish the job at Shayol Ghul.  I think this is why the three women are central to both Nicola's Foretelling and the Wise Ones' Dream: if Nynaeve rips him out of Tel'aran'rhiod, then the bond will be needed to save him.

[Bridge]

-Tuon needs a major wake-up call and needs to stop the leashoing, and only leash severe channeling criminals and darkfriend channelers. (how they'll do it, i have NO idea  ::) )

 

It seems like the Seanchan are actually the ideal society to usher in a new AoL... rand even notices at the end of tGS how much happier and more prosperous people were under their rule. The only problem - and its a BIG one - is that they embrace the concept of slavery, particularly the enslaving of those who can channel. I figure the best way to end that little issue is for someone to leash Tuon herslef... that rather sudden and stark realization could well be the catalyst to changing the Imperial view.

Or Tuon starting to channel herself! What if?

[Lord_of_the_Morning]

...the Dark One is working through: Rand...  Also, Moridin... tells them to NOT kill Rand. This means the DO has plans for Rand, is working through Rand on evil schemes...

 

My thoughts exactly.  Does anyone else think it's creepy, the idea of Rand sacrificing himself on the Altar of Evil [shayol Ghul]???  Would that be like sacrificing Jesus in Sodom???  Its a very creepy Prophecy our Lord Dragon is compelling himself to fulfill.  I have had this sneaking suspicion that Moridin has been up to more than just randomly intervening when Rand is in a bind (RAND VS. SAMMAEL @ SHADAR LOGOTH)  That was an instance where he had to directly step in, and it successfully created some kind of link with Rand that for Moridin is a double edged sword.  Rand is unfortunately right where the Dark One wants him.  What if the Dark One wants him to come to Shayol Ghul???  It is quite obvious to me that they intend to drag him kicking and screaming if he won't come.  They want the Dark One to drinketh of the blood of the Lord Dragon.

 

And people think this will save the world?

 

The Prophecies even state that this will Break the World.

 

Are people suicidal?

Someone should take Rand around back and put one in the back of his head.

"I win again Lews Therin."

 

[nyneavelan]

"Or Tuon starting to channel herself! What if?"

 

Well, Tuon is 20.  At some point a suldam says that women who are suldam are tested until they are 25.  So I think it highly likely that Tuon will begin to channel either because she has the spark inborn or because she will decide to do so.  In either event, her deciding to channel will explain why the decision to attack the Tower was a difficult one (as the omen that morning indicated).  All of a sudden she will need the newly-chained Aes Sedai to teach her how to handle the Source ... and she will need to be sure that the one she chooses to teach her is not a DF.

 

Regards,

 

Inna

[JamesL85]

DISCLAIMER:  Long time lurker, recently registered, first time poster.  I hope this hasn't been brought up before.  I looked, but didn't see it anywhere.

 

I've been doing my WoT reread on Kindle for Droid (and can't wait until they get search going on that!).  I just recently read Chapter 46 of The Great Hunt where Elayne and Nynaeve are rescuing Egwene:

 

"I have been thinking about it a great deal," Egwene said.  "Thinking was all I could do when they left me alone up here.  Sul'dam claim they develop an affinity after a few years.  Most of them can tell when a woman is channeling whether they're leashed to her or not.  I wasn't sure, but Seta proves it."

"Proves what?" Elayne demanded, and then her eyes widened in sudden realization, but Egwene went on.

"Nynaeve, a'dam only work on women who can channel.  Don't you see?  Sul'dam can channel the same as damane."  Seta groaned through her teeth, shaking her head in violent denial.  "A sul'dam would die before admitting she could channel, even if she knew, and they never train the ability, so they cannot do anything with it, but they can channel."

"I told you," Min said.  "That collar shouldn't have worked on her."  She was doing up the last buttons down Egwene's back.  "Any woman who couldn't channel would be able to beat you silly while you tried to control her with it."

"How can that be?" Nynaeve said.  "I thought the Seanchan put leashes on any woman who can channel."

"All of those they find," Egwene told her.  "But those they can find are like you, and me, and Elayne.  We were born with it, ready to channel whether anyone taught us or not.  But what about Seanchan girls who aren't born with the ability, but who could be taught?  Not just any woman can become a--a Leash Holder.  Renna thought she was being friendly telling me about it.  It is apparently a feastday in Seanchan villages when the sul'dam come to test the girls.  They want to find any like you and me, and leash them, but they let all the others put on a bracelet to see if they can feel what the poor woman in the collar feels.  Those who can are taken away to be trained as sul'dam.  They are the women who could be taught."

 

It's been a LOOOOOOONG time since I read the early books and I didn't remember this section.  Just thought I'd throw it out there.....

 

James

[Terez]

Was there anything in particular about it you wanted to point out?  The only thing I can think of is the fact that the sul'dam are learners and the damane sparkers...but that has been a running theme through the whole series.  In KOD, Mat got Tuon to admit that she could channel, if she wanted to.  She seems to think that she is special because she chooses not to, but she is willing enough to channel through others, which is essentially the same thing.  Also, the sul'dam that captured Egwene - Renna - was one of the three that helped Mat get out of Ebou Dar.  She was one of the three because she had been found with a collar on her, along with Seta.  Bethamin was one of the three because Egeanin found her after Falme and discovered that she could be held with an a'dam.  They wanted to escape Seanchan territory because they feared their secret would become known, and Bethamin began channeling in KOD, and Seta soon followed.  Mat also ordered Renna's death in KOD, because she tried to kill Egeanin, and then tried to escape.  He promises himself that he would not kill any more women, but he is unaware that he avenged Egwene's captivity, and her torture.  I expect Egwene to encounter Seta before the end of the series; Seta held her leash more often than anyone except Renna.  We didn't see Bethamin and Seta in TGS, but Joline did mention them when she asked Mat for horses and supplies.

[JamesL85]

I do realize that has been the theme, but it's been at least a decade since I read the early books.  I was posting that info for other people that might have forgotten things, like myself.  I, somewhat naively I'll admit, was under the impression that Seta, Renna and Bethamin were the exceptions, not the rule.

 

James

[FarShainMael]

...the Dark One is working through: Rand...  Also, Moridin... tells them to NOT kill Rand. This means the DO has plans for Rand, is working through Rand on evil schemes...

 

My thoughts exactly.  Does anyone else think it's creepy, the idea of Rand sacrificing himself on the Altar of Evil [shayol Ghul]???  Would that be like sacrificing Jesus in Sodom???  Its a very creepy Prophecy our Lord Dragon is compelling himself to fulfill.  I have had this sneaking suspicion that Moridin has been up to more than just randomly intervening when Rand is in a bind (RAND VS. SAMMAEL @ SHADAR LOGOTH)  That was an instance where he had to directly step in, and it successfully created some kind of link with Rand that for Moridin is a double edged sword.  Rand is unfortunately right where the Dark One wants him.  What if the Dark One wants him to come to Shayol Ghul???  It is quite obvious to me that they intend to drag him kicking and screaming if he won't come.  They want the Dark One to drinketh of the blood of the Lord Dragon.

 

And people think this will save the world?

 

The Prophecies even state that this will Break the World.

 

Are people suicidal?

Someone should take Rand around back and put one in the back of his head.

"I win again Lews Therin."

 

I think I agree with this!

 

I've speculated elsewhere that the prophecies, the Karaethon Cycle et al, may have been mistranslated since the Old Tongue is such a weird language.. so someone has indeed got it horribly wrong.

 

BTW, I rather suspect that TG proper wil begin with the riding forth out of Tarwin's Gap of Four Apocalyptic Horsemen..

 

straight into Lan's army.

[Lironah]

Tarmon Gai'don starts when Rand gets everyone together and busts the last seals, declaring 'Let it begin!'. Battle proceeds through book 14. Nice big battle where Rand uses Callandor with Elayne and Aviendha. Rand possibly fakes his own death. Then he goes to Shayol Ghul, where Fain is waiting to stab him. Rand uses his light powers to resist the wound long enough to sandwich Padan Fain in between the Dark One and the weave of the Power used to seal up the bore again. Elayne makes a nice little boat for skimming, with all 3 of Rand's wives present, and their bonds keep Rand alive long enough to get him to Nynaeve.

 

There you go. An amalgam of 3 of my favorite theories.

[FarShainMael]

The great battle done, but world not done with battle.  I believe it was one of Min's visions, or maybe Eggy's dreams that shows Rand entering a cave of red, like fire, at a black mountain. Noone else but Rand, so going after shai'tan seems to be a solo affair. The rest of the battle, is likely battle.

 

This is something I have dreaded since the first hint of it from the dreams/visions (was it a dream or a vision? i hope a dream, so it doesn't have to come true). As much as RJ deviated from LOTR, I can't help but feel that this will end up being much the same: rand in SG alone, and Fain popping in to try and kill him but somehow helping him.

 

I will be very disappointed in general if Rand goes to SG himself to take on the DO, at least if that means abandoning the rest of his friends without so much as a farewell. Most likely he will not even show up to help his companions or something, abandoning his glory and leaving it to the likes of Logain, and will do it alone.

 

It was a dream Egwene had in tDR25:

"Rand walking down into a great hole in a black mountain, a hole filled with a reddish glare as from vast fires below."

 

This does look as if there will be a crucial encounter between the DO and the Light's Champion. But I seriously doubt it will involve Rand abandoning his friends; more likely it'll be a last ditch attempt to save them.

[OptimusPrime]

Heres my theory.

 

Tarmon Gaidon is, of course, an epic Sha'rah game. The Pattern is the board, Rand is the Fisher King, his will affects the Pattern which means the salvation or destruction of it rests entirely-ENTIRELY-with Rands frame of mind. His Ta'verenism has reflected this all along, even from the very beginning, but particularly in TGS with the food rotting situation; not only did stuff rot around him when he was all cold, but the food he was bringing to Arad Domon in the first place-and there was a LOT-that food didnt rot when he was bringing it, when he still wanted to save the city, Not until he coldly decides he cant do any more and turns his back on the city, the food he had brought was no longer under the protection of his frame of mind, and only then, at that exact moment in time, did we hear that ALL of the food he brought had rotted.

 

So. Tarmon Gaidon I think began when Rand became Ta'veren. The Pattern is the board, and the Fisher King has been placed on the table. His visiting of towns is affected by his Ta'verenism-things like marriages in unusual numbers when he is around, his Ta'verenism is bringing about situations of love and happiness, even if they dont last when he leaves, it is sparking love back into these towns. Now Im not going all pansy about it but love saved Rand in TGS, after his hatred and rage had been having negative effects on the Pattern.

 

Eye of the World, the King Fisher is placed on the board. The Shadows first attempt to influence Rands frame of mind, the Dark Ones first move on the Sha'rah board, is Ishamael appearing to the three boys. The fact that they were all in one place makes it one move, and he appeared to all three because he knew one was the Fisher King but not which. So, he appears in their dreams, dreams that are then referenced to by the appearance of rats in the waking world just as in the dreams. This raises fear and uncertainty in the boys but not only that, their definition of what is realisticm what is possible, it begins to flex and change. Not long after that, people start falling off buildings and surviving without a scratch when they clearly should have died or at least been injured.

 

As we get to around the time of the Shadow Rising, Rands faith is strong, and his Ta'verenism brings things together in a massive rush. After being with a small group of people for a short ammount of time he has retrieved the Horn from Darkfriends, brought about the demise of several Forsaken, and he then quickly takes the Stone of Tear, siezes Callandor and proclaims himself, and the declaration of this, his will to no longer run from his destiny, instantly reflects that will by putting a stop to the other False Dragon that was still active. Note that the one before, Logain, was captured not long after Rand became Ta'veren, and then Taim is pulled down when Rand announced himself. And he comes out of it not only in control of Tear, but along the way he has also proven himself to be the Aiels messiah and has more military strength than most people can stand against.

 

Later on, after Moiraine dies, Rands motivation becomes less and less about the positive emotions and more about the rage, and his own paranoia is taking its toll not only on his sanity but on events around him. The Pattern starts loosening, because the Shadow is everywhere and he cant trust anyone. This builds up in TGS when he almost turns his back on humanity entirely, and is dramatically increased when he uses the True Power. Shaidar giving Semirhage the sad bracelet was simply a move on the Sha'rah board, another real move at Tarmon Gaidon as opposed to preparing moves in advance. The Dark One makes his move and has the sad bracelet put on Rand. When it comes down to it, making Rand use the True Power was the most significant move the Shadow has made directly on the Sha'rah board. The King Fisher for a brief time was controlled by the Shadow in my oppinion, because his frame of mind was incredibly dark. Not only did he become almost enthusiastic in proving to himself that he was prepared to kill women, he even used the term "Light-cursed." And he meant it. His moodswings are different now, they are much colder and darker and rather than bring the Pattern together, it is causing it to waste away, even on things he had previously preserved in the exact same way. The Shadow had the King Fisher, and for the remainder of that turn he corrupted the Pattern. And yet, the Wheel had of course foreseen all of this and prior to him going dark it had already accrued some of the necessary tools to deal with it. That being, that Perrin had already been to the Two Rivers and inspired Tam and Abel to come. Tam was then a piece on the Sha'rah board ready to use at the right time, as Cadsuane had been when she showed up. So the Dark One made his move and had Shaidar and Semirhage get the bracelet on Rand, and the Wheel then makes a turn and has Cadsuane send Tam to see Dark Rand. Rand remembers love, even as his presence made others remember it early on, and he has the epiphany that has brought much closer to the right path again.

 

It is all a Sha'rah game, Rands frame of mind reflects who has hold of the Fisher King, and as long as he dies in the right frame of mind the Shadow cannot win. He just needs to sacrifice himself to save the world, not to end his own suffering like he almost did in VoG. That is why VoG was so important; it was the closest the Shadow have ever come to winning so far in the actual books, because Rand almost gave in. The Shadow still have a good shot though via his connection to Moridin and his bonds to the women. Three bonds remind him of love, one reminds him of Aes Sedai betrayal, and the last reminds him that the Shadow have already marked him. If one of his loves dies, his frame of mind will reflect it even more so specifically because of the bonds. If something comes of Alannas bond, then the damage will be laid at Aes Sedai feet in Rands thoughts and thus bring out the negative frame of minds. If the connection to Moridin still makes them vulnerable to personality transferal then he is still at risk there as well.

 

I think the next move the Dark One will make directly on the Sha'rah board is to have someone obtain Alanna and influence Rand through his bond to her. But the Wheels countermove on the Sha'rah board is already being prepared in advance; Mat is recuing Moiraine, who I think will have Alanna pass Rands bond and then influence Rands personality herself but in a positive manner, Moiraine doing this to combat the affect Moridin is having on Rands personality

[FarShainMael]

Fascinating take.

 

'If one of his loves dies'.. I rather suspect that will be Min. If so, it will take everything Moiraine can do to heal the resultant damage to the Fisher King.

[Beren]

I think TG has been going on since the beginning.  Each book of the series has taken us through a/several battles in that war.  The strike at SG will be the final act.

 

I do not think Rand is alone in the trip down into the mountain, the three shall be one.  I think this refers to two different threes. 

 

1st Three people Rand and two unknown women (likely Alivia and Nynaeve)

    Callandor is most effective when used by a man and two women linked.

 

2nd The three powers Saidin, Saidar and the true power

    True Power to hold the DO.

    Saidin and Saidar to reseal/remake the bore.

    This provides the separation of Saidin and Saidar from the DO preventing the taint.  True power comes from the DO, there for touching the DO will not taint the one powers.

    LTT said he had to touch the dark one with Saidin to hold him back and then work on the seals.

 

Anyway, that is my take on the whole of it.

 

Well, here is another thought. Someone has got to use the TP to hold the Dark One back. This person would then be touched by the taint of the DO. Thus, whoever does this MUST be sealed inside the prison with the DO for all eternity...

 

So, here I think we have three reasonable options for the one on the inside.

1) Rand -- Almost certainly is Rand. See explanation later in the post.

2) Moridin -- A good possibility

3) Lanfear -- I HIGHLY doubt this, but she appears to have not always been evil.

 

For the outside, I think we will see Narishma using Callandor buffered by Nynaeve and Alivia.

1) Narishma is "he who follows after."

2) Nynaeve because of her talent and power.

3) Alivia because "she must help Rand die."

 

Also, to completely seal the DO away in all times, this sealing MUST be done in T'a'R since it is all that was, is and will be at the same time.

 

This, means that Rand needs to figure out a way to enter T'a'R without being there in the flesh and also a way to split his own soul from that of LTT. This, I think, is where Slayer will play a huge part. If they can discover what happened to create him then Rand might be able to split. This would mean LTT is trapped forever with the DO in T'a'R while Rand returns to his sleeping body (which looks as if dead) in the normal world.

 

I think Fain will end up being some sort of buffer between the True Power and Saidin/Saidar as the new seal is put in place.

 

The fact that the sealing is done in T'a'R, I think, brings up another important point. We have the wolves who live in T'a'R. I am betting Perrin comes in here. I bet he will lead an army of wolves in T'a'R to defend those making the seal against the Darkhounds who will be trying to stop Rand in T'a'R.

 

While this is going on, everyone else will be needed in the normal world to battle the forces of the DO as he is so close to being freed and his power grows. This is where Mat and the Horn of Valere come in as well as most of the Ashaman and Aes Sedai.

 

What do you guys think about all this?

[Bob T Dwarf]

< snip >

While this is going on, everyone else will be needed in the normal world to battle the forces of the DO as he is so close to being freed and his power grows. This is where Mat and the Horn of Valere come in as well as most of the Ashaman and Aes Sedai.

 

What do you guys think about all this?

 

Interesting theory, and I mean that sincerely. It's one of the very few that addresses the idea that the real Last Battle is going to be different from what we all expect.

 

My own guess is that a big part of what Moggy and Cyndane/Lanfear ( the two who consider Tel'aran'rhiod to be their domain ) have been up to is seeking out the souls of the Heroes and killing them so that if/when Mat sounds the Horn, there won't be much of anybody left to answer. I'm betting that the reason that Justice has been found and presented to Rand is because Hawkwing's soul is no longer in existence. And, maybe, by the time the Horn is sounded again there won't be any Heroes left to respond.

[Crael123]

Okay totally loony theory coming up.

 

I think that the Last Battle has been either the Third Age itself or that it started when Rand went to the Eye of the World. The Eye because the Voice spoke to him and nobody knows what that is. And the fact that the Horn was there and I think that was the fuse getting lit. Light the fuse, and then the explosion will happen in ToM. the explosion is when Rand breaks the seals.

 

The Third Age has had nothing but conflict after conflict and I think that the Trolloc Wars, War of 100 Years, Hawkwing, and the Aiel war were all the opening blows.. pre show entertainment i guess.

 

I also think that Rand will wield Callandor with Alivia (helps him die) and LANFEAR. I think that it is Lanfear (Cyndane) that is the woman who is long dead needed to win in Min's viewing. That would be some twist. Rand's blood will be spilled, Alivia will die and Lanfear will kill Moridin. Lanfear will somehow steal or become unmindtrapped. That, or she will seduce moridin into giving her the mindtrap or something. and she will break Moggy's

 

The wolves will have some super unknown thing that will kick ass.. like only wolves can kill darkhounds or something. And it kicks in when the Last Hunt begins. Perrin will lead them. having mastered the wolf in him. And he will Kill Slayer in 'Tar in an epic battle at... Dragonmount!!! hahah idk.

 

Mat's Dragons will have a role. Also Mat will be key to negotiations with Rand and Tuon. He will blow the Horn at Shayol Gul and hold off the trollocs while Rand alivia and cyndane do their thing.

 

Egwene will be a bitch and hopefully die a terrible death by being raped by SH.

 

I think Elayne will redeem herself or take a bath.

 

Demandred will be awesome and epic beyond even Rahavin and will die the most epic death of the series, like taking out the Black tower or something.

 

Graendal will kill Avi and Nyneave will kill her